Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend posted a very articulate criticism of the Duggars and their handling of the problem from a Christian viewpoint. The author is very clear about how Christian fundamentalist communities shame and blame the victims.

http://therealrebeccadiamond.com/josh-duggar-and-why-talking-about-it-matters

Is there any evidence that the Duggars shamed the girls?

Absolutely NOT. And that is why this is a smear campaign.

People who do not know the Duggars and have never watched the show are using this story as an opportunity to rip them and their religion to shreds.

Because that is what PC Liberal do. If you do not share their secular, left wing view, you are a stupid idiot and they will make fun of you.

Leave the Duggars alone.

Wrong.

The materials have been posted that were used to counsel the victims.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get why the Duggars went ahead with their public Christian life knowing that they had this skeleton in the closet. I guess they hoped it would never be discovered. The money was too enticing, now they have shamed their whole family all over the world in a case that should have been private. I mean that, when minors do this kind of thing, it should be kept private.
Also, I don't get why people think that strict Christians are more likely to have this happen. Words like repressive are being thrown around. ?
We also are hearing about how women are being repressed. I don'y recall the Duggars telling their sons to go out and have premarital sex.

1. I believe that Josh and his parents thought that once the mistakes were handled, and forgiveness sought and given, that that was it. There was no more fear of a skeleton in the closet because the entire issue was resolved, so why would anyone be interested in it?

2. The Quiverfull movement unfortunately, and other strict fundamentalists, are more likely to have problems with sexual abuse. Because sex, and guarding against it, are a huge part of the lifestyle, as well as for other reasons.

Can someone explain why discouraging pre marital sex leads to sex abuse?

Because sexuality is a basic component of human personality and sexual desire is a core drive. When people hit puberty, they want to have sex. They are curious and will experiment. If you suppress it, it will just come out in inappropriate ways. Either marry them off young (17-18) or let them have premarital sexual relationships.

Ya know -- until the invention of the pill and the legalization of abortion, most societies discouraged pre-marital sex because it would lead to an unwanted pregnancy. It also can lead to an STD including AIDs.

Discouraging pre-marital sex was the norm until our society went to hell in a handbasket (porn everywhere; people dressing skimpily; etc etc)

Why tar and feather the Duggars when they have values that (to them and many other) promote strong and healthy families?

Why do we all have to live a "Sex and the City" lifestyle and make fun of folks with traditional values?

What is wrong with you people?

Discouraging pre-marital sex does not lead to repression or sexual molestation.

Give me a break.

Shit happens in any family. The Duggars' religion is not why Josh acted inappropriately.

Maybe, maybe not.

Their religion did, however, prevent them from seeking a professional treatment program for him and the girls he abused - because they might be exposed to "secular" ideas that were incompatible with the family's religious beliefs. Their religion did cause them to seek out the "counseling" services of an organization managed by a sexual predator and the "advice" or a state trooper who is currently serving a lengthy sentence for crimes related to child pornography.

There is a difference between "discouraging premarital sex" and the kind of "sex ed" that the Duggars and their compatriots practice. I would feel a lot differently about it if girls raised in that environment were taught that they had any control over what happens to them sexually. But they're not. They are actively taught to obey men - fathers, husbands, male relatives - in all situations. It is not a stretch to apply that edict of obedience to men to a molestation situation, whether it was a priest, a brother or a state trooper.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone helping me in the facts thread!

Please comment here though, one troll already popped over there and that is for discussing and posting news and information. It is why we asked for it.

Thanks

Thank YOU, Smear Campaign chairwoman and control freak.

exactly!!

You know, those of you defending the Duggars should post all the articles in defense of them in the news thread, that is what it is for.


Oh...right.

There are articles and i will post them, but that other thread is bugging me too much and every time anyone writes a comment supporting the Duggars, Jeff Steele deletes it.

Also, the media is controlled by the left who are also participating in this smear campaign so there's that.

To the first bolded part: news stories bug you? why? truth hurts?
To the second: It is because that thread is not for comments. This one is.

thank you for explaining Ms. Control Freak Smear Campaign chairwoman.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone helping me in the facts thread!

Please comment here though, one troll already popped over there and that is for discussing and posting news and information. It is why we asked for it.

Thanks

Thank YOU, Smear Campaign chairwoman and control freak.

exactly!!

You know, those of you defending the Duggars should post all the articles in defense of them in the news thread, that is what it is for.


Oh...right.

There are articles and i will post them, but that other thread is bugging me too much and every time anyone writes a comment supporting the Duggars, Jeff Steele deletes it.

Also, the media is controlled by the left who are also participating in this smear campaign so there's that.

Smear campaign? I don't think that means what you think it means.
smear cam·paign
noun
noun: smear campaign; plural noun: smear campaigns

a plan to discredit a public figure by making false or dubious accusations.

Josh and Duggars have admitted that Josh diddled his little sisters. Their statements are in the news thread. No smearing necessary.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend posted a very articulate criticism of the Duggars and their handling of the problem from a Christian viewpoint. The author is very clear about how Christian fundamentalist communities shame and blame the victims.

http://therealrebeccadiamond.com/josh-duggar-and-why-talking-about-it-matters

Is there any evidence that the Duggars shamed the girls?

Absolutely NOT. And that is why this is a smear campaign.

People who do not know the Duggars and have never watched the show are using this story as an opportunity to rip them and their religion to shreds.

Because that is what PC Liberal do. If you do not share their secular, left wing view, you are a stupid idiot and they will make fun of you.

Leave the Duggars alone.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone helping me in the facts thread!

Please comment here though, one troll already popped over there and that is for discussing and posting news and information. It is why we asked for it.

Thanks

Thank YOU, Smear Campaign chairwoman and control freak.

exactly!!

You know, those of you defending the Duggars should post all the articles in defense of them in the news thread, that is what it is for.


Oh...right.

There are articles and i will post them, but that other thread is bugging me too much and every time anyone writes a comment supporting the Duggars, Jeff Steele deletes it.

Also, the media is controlled by the left who are also participating in this smear campaign so there's that.

To the first bolded part: news stories bug you? why? truth hurts?
To the second: It is because that thread is not for comments. This one is.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Thank you to everyone helping me in the facts thread!

Please comment here though, one troll already popped over there and that is for discussing and posting news and information. It is why we asked for it.

Thanks

Thank YOU, Smear Campaign chairwoman and control freak.

exactly!!

You know, those of you defending the Duggars should post all the articles in defense of them in the news thread, that is what it is for.


Oh...right.

There are articles and i will post them, but that other thread is bugging me too much and every time anyone writes a comment supporting the Duggars, Jeff Steele deletes it.

Also, the media is controlled by the left who are also participating in this smear campaign so there's that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get why the Duggars went ahead with their public Christian life knowing that they had this skeleton in the closet. I guess they hoped it would never be discovered. The money was too enticing, now they have shamed their whole family all over the world in a case that should have been private. I mean that, when minors do this kind of thing, it should be kept private.
Also, I don't get why people think that strict Christians are more likely to have this happen. Words like repressive are being thrown around. ?
We also are hearing about how women are being repressed. I don'y recall the Duggars telling their sons to go out and have premarital sex.

1. I believe that Josh and his parents thought that once the mistakes were handled, and forgiveness sought and given, that that was it. There was no more fear of a skeleton in the closet because the entire issue was resolved, so why would anyone be interested in it?

2. The Quiverfull movement unfortunately, and other strict fundamentalists, are more likely to have problems with sexual abuse. Because sex, and guarding against it, are a huge part of the lifestyle, as well as for other reasons.

Can someone explain why discouraging pre marital sex leads to sex abuse?

Because sexuality is a basic component of human personality and sexual desire is a core drive. When people hit puberty, they want to have sex. They are curious and will experiment. If you suppress it, it will just come out in inappropriate ways. Either marry them off young (17-18) or let them have premarital sexual relationships.

Ya know -- until the invention of the pill and the legalization of abortion, most societies discouraged pre-marital sex because it would lead to an unwanted pregnancy. It also can lead to an STD including AIDs.

Discouraging pre-marital sex was the norm until our society went to hell in a handbasket (porn everywhere; people dressing skimpily; etc etc)

Why tar and feather the Duggars when they have values that (to them and many other) promote strong and healthy families?

Why do we all have to live a "Sex and the City" lifestyle and make fun of folks with traditional values?

What is wrong with you people?

Discouraging pre-marital sex does not lead to repression or sexual molestation.

Give me a break.

Shit happens in any family. The Duggars' religion is not why Josh acted inappropriately.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend posted a very articulate criticism of the Duggars and their handling of the problem from a Christian viewpoint. The author is very clear about how Christian fundamentalist communities shame and blame the victims.

http://therealrebeccadiamond.com/josh-duggar-and-why-talking-about-it-matters

Is there any evidence that the Duggars shamed the girls?

Solid evidence? No. But go back a few pages and read the document that Gothard/ATI prescribe for sexual assault in families in their cult, and if they got their daughters any counseling at all, you would guess it would be from the same religion they follow, right? The document asks such questions of the victim as, what were you wearing? How did you encourage it? I'm paraphrasing, but it is victim shaming. And I've forgotten the source I read it in, but one site said that the girls had to go before their church and ask for forgiveness.

If you look at the news thread, the materials used to "counsel" sex abuse victims in the Gothard "religion" are posted.

They put the blame on the victim for being enticing to the predator. Also its God's will, so suck it up buttercup.

Anonymous wrote:
I do not consider myself a supporter, but the problem I see here is that the "someone" is also their 14 year old child, who they also presumably love and care about.[/b] I can see what an awful difficult position it would be. For example, I would want professional counseling for all, but would know that it could result in my child being charged with a crime, going to jail, or facing a lifetime of public registration as a sex offender. I'm not saying what they did was right, and I believe I would report it and make the "right"decisions if it were me. But I still see that it is a tough situation to be the parent of both the victims and the perpetrator.

It as also their daughters. Their 4 and 8 year old daughters...

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Also, I don't get why people think that strict Christians are more likely to have this happen.

Its the misogyny that enables it. The repression may make the males more likely to commit this but its the messaging about unquestionable male dominance and women existing to serve and obey men that creates the real danger.

Quiverfull prescribes extreme patriarchy. A women has no rights. She can not say no. She is must obey her father, husband and male relatives. She is seen as the temptress. If an abuser is present, she has been conditioned that she must submit to his authority and the fault lies with her for tempting him into the situation.

I see some parallels between Quiverfull and Roman Catholicism. I'm a former Catholic DD raised by a traditional, preVaticanII, Jesuit-educated father. In my childhood, there was very much a patriarchal , misogynistic attitude that if you had a concern or a problem of most any kind, you needed to go to Confession and /or talk things over with a priest. The priest would absolve you of your sins or proffer advice and wisdom and you'd best take heed. Not a lot of room for questioning or intellectual discourse or nuances. I was always loathe to give anyone that much authority, but most especially a Catholic priest. Not my dad and others of his age; the priest is the moral compass.

Not to mention the very bad advice about sex and relationships that you would get. What the fuck does a celibate priest know about healthy sexual relationships or about marriage?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A friend posted a very articulate criticism of the Duggars and their handling of the problem from a Christian viewpoint. The author is very clear about how Christian fundamentalist communities shame and blame the victims.

http://therealrebeccadiamond.com/josh-duggar-and-why-talking-about-it-matters

Is there any evidence that the Duggars shamed the girls?

Solid evidence? No. But go back a few pages and read the document that Gothard/ATI prescribe for sexual assault in families in their cult, and if they got their daughters any counseling at all, you would guess it would be from the same religion they follow, right? The document asks such questions of the victim as, what were you wearing? How did you encourage it? I'm paraphrasing, but it is victim shaming. And I've forgotten the source I read it in, but one site said that the girls had to go before their church and ask for forgiveness.

Those last two sentences should be flipped, sorry on phone,

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't get why the Duggars went ahead with their public Christian life knowing that they had this skeleton in the closet. I guess they hoped it would never be discovered. The money was too enticing, now they have shamed their whole family all over the world in a case that should have been private. I mean that, when minors do this kind of thing, it should be kept private.
Also, I don't get why people think that strict Christians are more likely to have this happen. Words like repressive are being thrown around. ?
We also are hearing about how women are being repressed. I don'y recall the Duggars telling their sons to go out and have premarital sex.

1. I believe that Josh and his parents thought that once the mistakes were handled, and forgiveness sought and given, that that was it. There was no more fear of a skeleton in the closet because the entire issue was resolved, so why would anyone be interested in it?

2. The Quiverfull movement unfortunately, and other strict fundamentalists, are more likely to have problems with sexual abuse. Because sex, and guarding against it, are a huge part of the lifestyle, as well as for other reasons.

Can someone explain why discouraging pre marital sex leads to sex abuse?

Because sexuality is a basic component of human personality and sexual desire is a core drive. When people hit puberty, they want to have sex. They are curious and will experiment. If you suppress it, it will just come out in inappropriate ways. Either marry them off young (17-18) or let them have premarital sexual relationships.

I was not allowed to have sex at puberty, nor will I allow my children to do so (partly because I don't think children should be having sex). Anyway, there are tons of kids who get the drive, but the parents around them often steer them in another direction, which is fine.

You are aware that sexual debut for kids of conservative parents is about six months AFTER sexual debut for kids of liberal parents. All that work and you earned yourself six months. In the meantime, your kids are less likely to use birth control, more likely to get pregnant, and more likely to get an STD than mine.

I understand what you are trying to do, but it doesn't work. You aren't protecting your kids from anything and you are increasing their risk of harm substantially.

When people are ready for sex, they have sex. Marry them off young or let them go.

[quote=Anonymous]I don't get why the Duggars went ahead with their [b]public Christian life knowing that they had this skeleton in the closet. I guess they hoped it would never be discovered. The money was too enticing, now they have shamed their whole family all over the world in a case that should have been private. I mean that, when minors do this kind of thing, it should be kept private.
Also, I don't get why people think that strict Christians are more likely to have this happen. Words like repressive are being thrown around. ?
We also are hearing about how women are being repressed. I don'y recall the Duggars telling their sons to go out and have premarital sex.