Anonymous wrote:What nearly everybody is missing yet it's fundamental is the FAITH part. What do you believe in your heart?

Do you believe that God is fully present body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist? If so then you could never be anything other than Catholic since it is the only faith that professes that. Those who don't believe that were never faithfully Catholic to begin with or they would never have thought they could find it in another religion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

No suggestion at all. Plaintiff’s practice is a business and plaintiff’s lawyers follow the money.

But the point is not that all institutions have problems, churches included. The point is that poster after poster has cited sex abuse as a reason to attack only the Catholic Church, to reject the moral authority of only the Catholic Church, to dissuade the OP from only the Catholic Church, and to propose as options other organizations that have had issues of their own, as if those issues somehow don’t matter but the ones in the Catholic Church do. That is fundamentally illogical and logically fallacious.

A person who wants to disagree with specific Church teachings should do themselves the favor of at least fully understanding what they claim to disagree with. How many posters here who disagree with the Church on “reproductive” issues have read Humanae Vitae or the Declaration on Procured Anortion? How many who assert that women should be Catholic priests have studied Ordinatio Sacerdotalis? How many critics of the church have even opened a copy of the Catechism?

The Church is unpopular because its teachings call people to account. The Church is vilified not because it is wrong, but because it is right, and the knowledge that they are not living the best lives they can wounds its critics.

Oh! Oh! Meeee!!!! Meee!!!!
19 years of Catholic education. Read and tested on Humanae Vitae. (Although I didn't read the declaration on procured abortion) Lots of tests on various parts of the catechism. I can even speak intelligently about Ex Corde Ecclesiae and what that does and doesn't mean for faculty in Catholic Universities and at Catholic campus health centers. And I can understand a more Latin than your average bear.

It's offensive and facile to assume that anyone who disagrees with the Catholic church just doesn't "really understand"

Anonymous wrote:Op - if there was a local restaurant that made the most delicious dish ever but you found out they had been doing and supporting all the things the Catholic Church does - would you still eat there? There’s your answer.

Anonymous wrote:What nearly everybody is missing yet it's fundamental is the FAITH part. What do you believe in your heart?

Do you believe that God is fully present body, blood, soul, and divinity in the Eucharist? If so then you could never be anything other than Catholic since it is the only faith that professes that. Those who don't believe that were never faithfully Catholic to begin with or they would never have thought they could find it in another religion.

Anonymous wrote:

No suggestion at all. Plaintiff’s practice is a business and plaintiff’s lawyers follow the money.

But the point is not that all institutions have problems, churches included. The point is that poster after poster has cited sex abuse as a reason to attack only the Catholic Church, to reject the moral authority of only the Catholic Church, to dissuade the OP from only the Catholic Church, and to propose as options other organizations that have had issues of their own, as if those issues somehow don’t matter but the ones in the Catholic Church do. That is fundamentally illogical and logically fallacious.

A person who wants to disagree with specific Church teachings should do themselves the favor of at least fully understanding what they claim to disagree with. How many posters here who disagree with the Church on “reproductive” issues have read Humanae Vitae or the Declaration on Procured Anortion? How many who assert that women should be Catholic priests have studied Ordinatio Sacerdotalis? How many critics of the church have even opened a copy of the Catechism?

The Church is unpopular because its teachings call people to account. The Church is vilified not because it is wrong, but because it is right, and the knowledge that they are not living the best lives they can wounds its critics.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

Nice try, but the difference is that the ELCA doesn't have an organized hierarchy that used its power to cover up the crimes for decades.

I'm sorry that's hard for you to face.

Wow. And with a history going all the way back to 1987!

And if you really believe the ELCA has never tried to bury an abuse case I’m the one sorry for you.

And I’ll just leave this here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us/abuse-by-clergy-is-not-just-a-catholic-problem.html

Not a single person has indicated that child sexual abuse exists only in the Catholic church. But by design, most Protestant denominations (including the ELCA) are not hierarchical. They're independent congregations. So, you're still wrong.

No, I’m still right because (1) the entire premise that the Roman Church is evil incarnate and bereft of authority because of sexual abuse is replete in the prior posts, both implicitly and explicitly; (2) the decentralized nature of many Protestant denominations makes them far less inviting targets than the gigantic, centralized in some ways, perceived to be wealthy Roman Church; and (3) your apparent point that decentralized denominations are better than the Roman Church because however corrupt any individual minister or branch might be, there is no central administration to be corrupted, is simply ridiculous.

So Catholic pp is suggesting that Catholicism has been charged with sex abuse because it is a more "inviting target" than other churches and not because of its evil deeds.

IOW, "Not fair -- other churches do it too!"

No suggestion at all. Plaintiff’s practice is a business and plaintiff’s lawyers follow the money.

But the point is not that all institutions have problems, churches included. The point is that poster after poster has cited sex abuse as a reason to attack only the Catholic Church, to reject the moral authority of only the Catholic Church, to dissuade the OP from only the Catholic Church, and to propose as options other organizations that have had issues of their own, as if those issues somehow don’t matter but the ones in the Catholic Church do. That is fundamentally illogical and logically fallacious.

A person who wants to disagree with specific Church teachings should do themselves the favor of at least fully understanding what they claim to disagree with. How many posters here who disagree with the Church on “reproductive” issues have read Humanae Vitae or the Declaration on Procured Anortion? How many who assert that women should be Catholic priests have studied Ordinatio Sacerdotalis? How many critics of the church have even opened a copy of the Catechism?

The Church is unpopular because its teachings call people to account. The Church is vilified not because it is wrong, but because it is right, and the knowledge that they are not living the best lives they can wounds its critics.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

Nice try, but the difference is that the ELCA doesn't have an organized hierarchy that used its power to cover up the crimes for decades.

I'm sorry that's hard for you to face.

Wow. And with a history going all the way back to 1987!

And if you really believe the ELCA has never tried to bury an abuse case I’m the one sorry for you.

And I’ll just leave this here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us/abuse-by-clergy-is-not-just-a-catholic-problem.html

Not a single person has indicated that child sexual abuse exists only in the Catholic church. But by design, most Protestant denominations (including the ELCA) are not hierarchical. They're independent congregations. So, you're still wrong.

No, I’m still right because (1) the entire premise that the Roman Church is evil incarnate and bereft of authority because of sexual abuse is replete in the prior posts, both implicitly and explicitly; (2) the decentralized nature of many Protestant denominations makes them far less inviting targets than the gigantic, centralized in some ways, perceived to be wealthy Roman Church; and (3) your apparent point that decentralized denominations are better than the Roman Church because however corrupt any individual minister or branch might be, there is no central administration to be corrupted, is simply ridiculous.

So Catholic pp is suggesting that Catholicism has been charged with sex abuse because it is a more "inviting target" than other churches and not because of its evil deeds.

IOW, "Not fair -- other churches do it too!"

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

Nice try, but the difference is that the ELCA doesn't have an organized hierarchy that used its power to cover up the crimes for decades.

I'm sorry that's hard for you to face.

Wow. And with a history going all the way back to 1987!

And if you really believe the ELCA has never tried to bury an abuse case I’m the one sorry for you.

And I’ll just leave this here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us/abuse-by-clergy-is-not-just-a-catholic-problem.html

Not a single person has indicated that child sexual abuse exists only in the Catholic church. But by design, most Protestant denominations (including the ELCA) are not hierarchical. They're independent congregations. So, you're still wrong.

No, I’m still right because (1) the entire premise that the Roman Church is evil incarnate and bereft of authority because of sexual abuse is replete in the prior posts, both implicitly and explicitly; (2) the decentralized nature of many Protestant denominations makes them far less inviting targets than the gigantic, centralized in some ways, perceived to be wealthy Roman Church; and (3) your apparent point that decentralized denominations are better than the Roman Church because however corrupt any individual minister or branch might be, there is no central administration to be corrupted, is simply ridiculous.

You are being willfully obtuse. There can't be a worldwide coverup if there's no hierarchy to carry it out. Martin Luther got rid of that for a reason.

But clearly, all those abuse claims were just made up to get money from wealthy, holy Mother Church anyway. /s

I agree.
It would just be many, many small, local covers. Probably most of the time, the story never really comes out.
Everything you are told in a Protestant Church comes from the mind of the one lead pastor who may or may not have attended a seminary and has no current external guidance. So, basically, you know what (s)he knows.

Of course. Because God forbid it's a she!

I guess maybe it’s better if it’s a she?
I don’t know. My personal experience with Protestant churches is that they are typically run by one heavy handed individual, whose main talent lies more in public speaking than theological expertise, and who, like all people, is fallible and often has difficulty admitting they are wrong.

When sexual abuse has happened, it has either been covered up, or, more bizarrely, it has been out in the open, and the perpetrators have written a book about it that’s available for $15.95 in the lobby.

Riiiiiight.

Bless your heart.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

Nice try, but the difference is that the ELCA doesn't have an organized hierarchy that used its power to cover up the crimes for decades.

I'm sorry that's hard for you to face.

Wow. And with a history going all the way back to 1987!

And if you really believe the ELCA has never tried to bury an abuse case I’m the one sorry for you.

And I’ll just leave this here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us/abuse-by-clergy-is-not-just-a-catholic-problem.html

Not a single person has indicated that child sexual abuse exists only in the Catholic church. But by design, most Protestant denominations (including the ELCA) are not hierarchical. They're independent congregations. So, you're still wrong.

No, I’m still right because (1) the entire premise that the Roman Church is evil incarnate and bereft of authority because of sexual abuse is replete in the prior posts, both implicitly and explicitly; (2) the decentralized nature of many Protestant denominations makes them far less inviting targets than the gigantic, centralized in some ways, perceived to be wealthy Roman Church; and (3) your apparent point that decentralized denominations are better than the Roman Church because however corrupt any individual minister or branch might be, there is no central administration to be corrupted, is simply ridiculous.

You are being willfully obtuse. There can't be a worldwide coverup if there's no hierarchy to carry it out. Martin Luther got rid of that for a reason.

But clearly, all those abuse claims were just made up to get money from wealthy, holy Mother Church anyway. /s

I agree.
It would just be many, many small, local covers. Probably most of the time, the story never really comes out.
Everything you are told in a Protestant Church comes from the mind of the one lead pastor who may or may not have attended a seminary and has no current external guidance. So, basically, you know what (s)he knows.

Of course. Because God forbid it's a she!

I guess maybe it’s better if it’s a she?
I don’t know. My personal experience with Protestant churches is that they are typically run by one heavy handed individual, whose main talent lies more in public speaking than theological expertise, and who, like all people, is fallible and often has difficulty admitting they are wrong.

When sexual abuse has happened, it has either been covered up, or, more bizarrely, it has been out in the open, and the perpetrators have written a book about it that’s available for $15.95 in the lobby.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

Nice try, but the difference is that the ELCA doesn't have an organized hierarchy that used its power to cover up the crimes for decades.

I'm sorry that's hard for you to face.

Wow. And with a history going all the way back to 1987!

And if you really believe the ELCA has never tried to bury an abuse case I’m the one sorry for you.

And I’ll just leave this here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us/abuse-by-clergy-is-not-just-a-catholic-problem.html

Not a single person has indicated that child sexual abuse exists only in the Catholic church. But by design, most Protestant denominations (including the ELCA) are not hierarchical. They're independent congregations. So, you're still wrong.

No, I’m still right because (1) the entire premise that the Roman Church is evil incarnate and bereft of authority because of sexual abuse is replete in the prior posts, both implicitly and explicitly; (2) the decentralized nature of many Protestant denominations makes them far less inviting targets than the gigantic, centralized in some ways, perceived to be wealthy Roman Church; and (3) your apparent point that decentralized denominations are better than the Roman Church because however corrupt any individual minister or branch might be, there is no central administration to be corrupted, is simply ridiculous.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

Nice try, but the difference is that the ELCA doesn't have an organized hierarchy that used its power to cover up the crimes for decades.

I'm sorry that's hard for you to face.

Wow. And with a history going all the way back to 1987!

And if you really believe the ELCA has never tried to bury an abuse case I’m the one sorry for you.

And I’ll just leave this here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us/abuse-by-clergy-is-not-just-a-catholic-problem.html

Not a single person has indicated that child sexual abuse exists only in the Catholic church. But by design, most Protestant denominations (including the ELCA) are not hierarchical. They're independent congregations. So, you're still wrong.

No, I’m still right because (1) the entire premise that the Roman Church is evil incarnate and bereft of authority because of sexual abuse is replete in the prior posts, both implicitly and explicitly; (2) the decentralized nature of many Protestant denominations makes them far less inviting targets than the gigantic, centralized in some ways, perceived to be wealthy Roman Church; and (3) your apparent point that decentralized denominations are better than the Roman Church because however corrupt any individual minister or branch might be, there is no central administration to be corrupted, is simply ridiculous.

You are being willfully obtuse. There can't be a worldwide coverup if there's no hierarchy to carry it out. Martin Luther got rid of that for a reason.

But clearly, all those abuse claims were just made up to get money from wealthy, holy Mother Church anyway. /s

I agree.
It would just be many, many small, local covers. Probably most of the time, the story never really comes out.
Everything you are told in a Protestant Church comes from the mind of the one lead pastor who may or may not have attended a seminary and has no current external guidance. So, basically, you know what (s)he knows.

Since you are knowledgeable about clergy, you probably know that the major Christian denominations - Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, UCC, Russian and Greek Orthodox, etc, require a seminary education. It's only fundamentalist sects that can become clergy simply by feeling the spirit.

Of course. Because God forbid it's a she!

I guess maybe it’s better if it’s a she?
I don’t know. My personal experience with Protestant churches is that they are typically run by one heavy handed individual, whose main talent lies more in public speaking than theological expertise, and who, like all people, is fallible and often has difficulty admitting they are wrong.

When sexual abuse has happened, it has either been covered up, or, more bizarrely, it has been out in the open, and the perpetrators have written a book about it that’s available for $15.95 in the lobby.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP if you’re still listening, I was in your position. The more liberal branch of Lutheranism (ELCA) worked for me. It felt like church (a lot of the same liturgy as Catholic) without the pedophilia, sexism, and social conservatism.

Nope, no sex abuse in the Lutherans.

“ Thore was pastor of St. Nicodemus for about 20 years in 2004, when he admitted to church officials that he had had inappropriate sexual contact with two boys in his congregation years earlier.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/buffalonews.com/news/local/lutheran-pastor-accused-of-abuse-says-he-lived-in-torment-over-any-wrong-he-committed/article_322b5b4a-3aad-5b37-be6b-e5f45937550f.amp.html

“Victims of a former Lutheran minister who sexually molested boys won a jury award of nearly $37 million Thursday, bringing the total payout in the case to about $69 million.”

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/wbna4808590

Nice try, but the difference is that the ELCA doesn't have an organized hierarchy that used its power to cover up the crimes for decades.

I'm sorry that's hard for you to face.

Wow. And with a history going all the way back to 1987!

And if you really believe the ELCA has never tried to bury an abuse case I’m the one sorry for you.

And I’ll just leave this here:

https://www.nytimes.com/2002/04/13/us/abuse-by-clergy-is-not-just-a-catholic-problem.html

Not a single person has indicated that child sexual abuse exists only in the Catholic church. But by design, most Protestant denominations (including the ELCA) are not hierarchical. They're independent congregations. So, you're still wrong.

No, I’m still right because (1) the entire premise that the Roman Church is evil incarnate and bereft of authority because of sexual abuse is replete in the prior posts, both implicitly and explicitly; (2) the decentralized nature of many Protestant denominations makes them far less inviting targets than the gigantic, centralized in some ways, perceived to be wealthy Roman Church; and (3) your apparent point that decentralized denominations are better than the Roman Church because however corrupt any individual minister or branch might be, there is no central administration to be corrupted, is simply ridiculous.

You are being willfully obtuse. There can't be a worldwide coverup if there's no hierarchy to carry it out. Martin Luther got rid of that for a reason.

But clearly, all those abuse claims were just made up to get money from wealthy, holy Mother Church anyway. /s

I agree.
It would just be many, many small, local covers. Probably most of the time, the story never really comes out.
Everything you are told in a Protestant Church comes from the mind of the one lead pastor who may or may not have attended a seminary and has no current external guidance. So, basically, you know what (s)he knows.

Of course. Because God forbid it's a she!