Anonymous
Post 04/29/2021 10:27     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
On the question of whether kids are being shortchanged: several people whose moms had "big jobs" have posted here. They seem split between being content and wishing their moms had spent more time with them. So, OP, it can go either way.

I do think there is great value in your kids watching you cook and clean at least a little, unless you're earning enough to ensure they'll never need those skills themselves. No reason an hour of your "quality time" can't be picking up the playroom or whatever.
Anonymous
Post 04/28/2021 13:59     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:. We do lots of talks in our house about the importance of education, providing value in the world and the importance of giving back. I have nothing but respect for SAHMs but if women keep mommy-tracking in droves, what does that teach our girls? How can we tell them to dream big, be whatever they want to be, and then model the opposite?


Well, being a SAHM mom is what I wanted to be for a couple of decades while I paused being in the paid workforce - it was my big dream.

Former SAHM here (returned to full time professional job after raising them) - we also talk about the importance of education, providing value and giving back, along with making intentional choices about doing what brings us joy. We talk about strategically taking risks and weighing what is important to us and to prioritize what gives our lives meaning rather than doing what society thinks we should or what everyone else is doing or what others deem is worthwhile to do.

I got my law degree, worked as a lawyer, then did the full-time mom thing for awhile before returning to working as a lawyer. I modeled being a woman who decided my joy was being home full-time for a finite period of time and returning to paid work later. It modeled critical thinking, risk assessment, strategic planning for career re-entry after a gap, and basically having the guts to take a risk to do a short-term job that I knew would not be available forever (because the opportunity to be home with the kids has an expiration date). My girls will make their own choices about what brings them joy. It is not a once size fits all.

I have nothing but respect for working moms, but not every job is the fulfillment of a big dream and not every working person has become the person they wanted to be.



Good for you. You sound pretty defensive though. My post that you quoted above was meant to support the OP, not for you to take personally. you also sound pretty privileged. Not all of us can choose to stay home.


LOL this is a post about big law. Calling someone else privileged is a bucket of laughs.
Anonymous
Post 04/28/2021 12:15     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I think there's a big difference between having a cleaning lady and a landscaper vs. having a nanny basically be a parent for your kids. There are very few jobs that are really would require that anyway. But kids do resent a lack of time with their parents. My mother had an intense job, and I resented it. So I work but I remain vigilant about how present and engaged I am with my kids. Everybody is having these same struggles and honestly there need to be policy changes if we expect both parents to work.


Well-said -- and I, too, had a mom with an intense job. I would suggest, though, that we might, as individuals, families, and as a society, reconsider our expectation that both parents WOTH throughout the entire span of child-rearing. We might do better if we focus on creating greater opportunities for on-ramping SAHPs once their kids get older -- and, note that I say parents -- not just moms.


I totally agree.

Taking some time off to be home with kids is really wonderful, and should be something all parents should consider if they can swing it. The goal should be making sure those parents are not shut out of the workforce forever just because they decided to focus on their kids for a while.
Anonymous
Post 04/28/2021 11:55     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:I quit. It is extremely challenging to have children if you work in biglaw unless your spouse is the primary parent and you have significant support, hopefully grandparents who live close by and want to take active role or your spouse does not work at all. I had a supportive firm that wanted me to stay, partners who were willing to make concessions for me, and I enjoyed my work. But, ultimately, I couldn’t figure it out, even with 2 nannies. My kids were really getting shortchanged and my life was totally out of my control.

Good luck. I have seen women do it well with small children. But they all have the combination described above. You need to have the home responsibilities of a man from the 1960s.


This. You need to think long and hard as to whether you can handle thinking that your kids are being shortchanged (whether or not they actually are).
Anonymous
Post 04/28/2021 09:44     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Here's is what the women partners told me before I became a partner: you can't be both. If you want to stay in the practice and succeed, delegate, delegate, delegate, both at home and at work, but mostly at home. You need back up plans for your back up plans. Some had various combinations of the following: live in parents, nannies, au pairs, SAH or flexible spouses, always full child care coverage options (not always needed, but always available) from 7-10 pm, plus weekends; cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep (several had home chefs or full service housekeeping); tutors; sometimes drivers for the kids.


I would have walked out the door right then and there.

When are you delusional women going to realize that you are being asked to "delegate out" the very fabric of your lives?


Well, I wouldn't put it like that, but I had the same reaction. Cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, drop-off/pick-up, working with your kids on schoolwork - aren't all those things just....life? What is it teaching your kids when you pay people to do everything for you? Doing many of these tasks is a huge part of being and growing together and developing as a family. Some of my family's best conversations are during "chore" times, not during yay! fun! time!


I'm teaching them that if they get a good job that allows the extra cash for it that they can make the decision to outsource things that are less of a good use of their time. Honestly, my MIL was a stay-at-home mom who loves taking care of "her boys" and did all that for them and my FIL. You know what "her boys" have learned? That a woman will take care of all that for them. (My husband outgrew it before we met, my BIL and FIL still have not.) I was raised by a working mom, and I was doing laundry and cooking meals by middle school. Guess which one of us didn't dye their clothing pink by not knowing to sort red from whites? It wasn't me.

Household chores are not the "very fabric of [my life]" - god, what a dull existence you must have to think THAT'S what's important. Cleaning is boring, laundry is easy, cooking is my husband's thing, and we share helping with schoolwork, except that they will listen to the math tutor better than either of us. As soon as the pandemic is over, we're hiring a cleaning person with absolutely no apologies or concerns that I'm setting a bad example for my kids. We cook together for fun, they have chores/responsibilities around the house, and they're expected to help when asked. Life requires that you get your stuff done; it does not preclude you from paying others to take on the tasks you're not fulfilled by if you can afford it.


Exactly. I encourage women to pursue high paying careers and outsource things they don’t want to do, which will ultimately lead to more time with their kids and also professional satisfaction. I thought about SAHM or a lower wage career in social work, buying into the idea that I’d obviously want to be the caretaker of my home as a women (from an evangelical household). I decided to pursue medicine instead and I’m perfectly happy with the balance and the income that allows me to get away from doing household duties I don’t personally want to do. Lots of girls in my Med school class had doctor moms and are so freaking proud of them- enough to pursue the same career.


Yes.. because social work means you have all the time in the world to be “caretaker of the home.” :::major eye roll::: so disrespectful and condescending of the profession. Social work is a calling and often requires long and grueling hours. It may be “low wage” to you, but a calling nonetheless, that still requires a lot of help if you want to work and raise children. Get off your high horse.


Thank you! That post rubbed me the wrong way but I couldn’t quite put my finger on it. Dr. PP seems like a jerk.
Anonymous
Post 04/28/2021 09:40     Subject: Re:Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:You need better and more childcare. Find a nanny or au pair who can do pick up and drop off. There's no such thing as too much coverage. When things are quiet, take a break and spend time with your kids, even if the nanny or au pair is scheduled. You pay for time you don't need, but it's what you pay to have coverage when sh!t hits the fan and you can't get home.


THIS! Our kids are now in lower school and we still have a full-time nanny. When the kids are in school she does their laundry, all the beds and towels, other things around the house, and errands. She's basically half-nanny, half-assistant/house manager at this point. She wanted to stay with us and transition as kids got older so it works just fine. So OP, my advice to you would be to have your nanny do drop offs and pick ups because not having to be somewhere at an exact point in time reduces SO much stress. Also, make sure you're outsourcing the other stuff that takes time away from you on weekends or days off. We do our adult laundry but I have friends who love the drop off and pick up services. If your nanny doesn't want to do stuff like errands like hire an assistant to run to UPS for an Amazon return, do your grocery shopping, help with meal prep, etc. Have a gardener if you don't like doing that yourself, and even if you do, hire someone to do the parts you don't like. The best part about being in big law is having the money to throw at things. My husband and I basically went through a list of things we didn't want to do and outsourced them. As a result, we get to spend a lot more time with our kids - we all have breakfast together every morning and then they leave and at driven to school. It's only 15 minutes away from us luckily, but with the carline that's at least 45 minutes of time we get back. We work while they're at school and then the nanny gets them (more time saved not doing carline, which is even longer in the afternoons), and they're home by 4. Sometimes one of us will stop and help with homework, sometimes the nanny does it with them. Then they're off to their various sports and they're either dropped or or we're with them. On weekends we can pretty much spend all the time with them because we don't have to run to the grocery store or wash and make the beds, etc. We can work after they've gone to bed or take turns on the weekend where one of us has both if the other needs to work a few hours. So coverage/outsourcing is key.
Anonymous
Post 04/28/2021 09:29     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Everyone has different wants, needs, and beliefs. You don't value an elite career with high earning potential and that's fine. Other people do and are willing to employ the village to help them. Let them be.


Call it what you want, but the village is pretty much raising the children in such situations.


+1 Ew don't call your hired help "the village." In an actual "village," you wouldn't get to go off doing something else for 8+ hrs a day while other women raise your child for you.


This is just such a weird perspective. Do you think teachers also raise your kids for you? Coaches for after school sports?


No mother of young children (<7) in an actual traditional village would leave their children 40+ hrs a week to do something else while some other ladies look after her little kids all day. If you were a mom of little kids in a village, maybe someone would watch your kids for a couple hours while you do a chore, or they would watch your kids while you're sick, but no, mostly you would be there with the other women raising your children together all day.

Full-day care for young children is not "a village." Would you call the nannies on Downton Abbey "a village"?
Anonymous
Post 04/28/2021 06:53     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Here's is what the women partners told me before I became a partner: you can't be both. If you want to stay in the practice and succeed, delegate, delegate, delegate, both at home and at work, but mostly at home. You need back up plans for your back up plans. Some had various combinations of the following: live in parents, nannies, au pairs, SAH or flexible spouses, always full child care coverage options (not always needed, but always available) from 7-10 pm, plus weekends; cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep (several had home chefs or full service housekeeping); tutors; sometimes drivers for the kids.


I would have walked out the door right then and there.

When are you delusional women going to realize that you are being asked to "delegate out" the very fabric of your lives?


Well, I wouldn't put it like that, but I had the same reaction. Cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, drop-off/pick-up, working with your kids on schoolwork - aren't all those things just....life? What is it teaching your kids when you pay people to do everything for you? Doing many of these tasks is a huge part of being and growing together and developing as a family. Some of my family's best conversations are during "chore" times, not during yay! fun! time!


I'm teaching them that if they get a good job that allows the extra cash for it that they can make the decision to outsource things that are less of a good use of their time. Honestly, my MIL was a stay-at-home mom who loves taking care of "her boys" and did all that for them and my FIL. You know what "her boys" have learned? That a woman will take care of all that for them. (My husband outgrew it before we met, my BIL and FIL still have not.) I was raised by a working mom, and I was doing laundry and cooking meals by middle school. Guess which one of us didn't dye their clothing pink by not knowing to sort red from whites? It wasn't me.

Household chores are not the "very fabric of [my life]" - god, what a dull existence you must have to think THAT'S what's important. Cleaning is boring, laundry is easy, cooking is my husband's thing, and we share helping with schoolwork, except that they will listen to the math tutor better than either of us. As soon as the pandemic is over, we're hiring a cleaning person with absolutely no apologies or concerns that I'm setting a bad example for my kids. We cook together for fun, they have chores/responsibilities around the house, and they're expected to help when asked. Life requires that you get your stuff done; it does not preclude you from paying others to take on the tasks you're not fulfilled by if you can afford it.


Exactly. I encourage women to pursue high paying careers and outsource things they don’t want to do, which will ultimately lead to more time with their kids and also professional satisfaction. I thought about SAHM or a lower wage career in social work, buying into the idea that I’d obviously want to be the caretaker of my home as a women (from an evangelical household). I decided to pursue medicine instead and I’m perfectly happy with the balance and the income that allows me to get away from doing household duties I don’t personally want to do. Lots of girls in my Med school class had doctor moms and are so freaking proud of them- enough to pursue the same career.


Yes.. because social work means you have all the time in the world to be “caretaker of the home.” :::major eye roll::: so disrespectful and condescending of the profession. Social work is a calling and often requires long and grueling hours. It may be “low wage” to you, but a calling nonetheless, that still requires a lot of help if you want to work and raise children. Get off your high horse.
Anonymous
Post 04/28/2021 06:44     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Here's is what the women partners told me before I became a partner: you can't be both. If you want to stay in the practice and succeed, delegate, delegate, delegate, both at home and at work, but mostly at home. You need back up plans for your back up plans. Some had various combinations of the following: live in parents, nannies, au pairs, SAH or flexible spouses, always full child care coverage options (not always needed, but always available) from 7-10 pm, plus weekends; cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep (several had home chefs or full service housekeeping); tutors; sometimes drivers for the kids.


I would have walked out the door right then and there.

When are you delusional women going to realize that you are being asked to "delegate out" the very fabric of your lives?


Well, I wouldn't put it like that, but I had the same reaction. Cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, drop-off/pick-up, working with your kids on schoolwork - aren't all those things just....life? What is it teaching your kids when you pay people to do everything for you? Doing many of these tasks is a huge part of being and growing together and developing as a family. Some of my family's best conversations are during "chore" times, not during yay! fun! time!


I'm teaching them that if they get a good job that allows the extra cash for it that they can make the decision to outsource things that are less of a good use of their time. Honestly, my MIL was a stay-at-home mom who loves taking care of "her boys" and did all that for them and my FIL. You know what "her boys" have learned? That a woman will take care of all that for them. (My husband outgrew it before we met, my BIL and FIL still have not.) I was raised by a working mom, and I was doing laundry and cooking meals by middle school. Guess which one of us didn't dye their clothing pink by not knowing to sort red from whites? It wasn't me.

Household chores are not the "very fabric of [my life]" - god, what a dull existence you must have to think THAT'S what's important. Cleaning is boring, laundry is easy, cooking is my husband's thing, and we share helping with schoolwork, except that they will listen to the math tutor better than either of us. As soon as the pandemic is over, we're hiring a cleaning person with absolutely no apologies or concerns that I'm setting a bad example for my kids. We cook together for fun, they have chores/responsibilities around the house, and they're expected to help when asked. Life requires that you get your stuff done; it does not preclude you from paying others to take on the tasks you're not fulfilled by if you can afford it.


Exactly. I encourage women to pursue high paying careers and outsource things they don’t want to do, which will ultimately lead to more time with their kids and also professional satisfaction. I thought about SAHM or a lower wage career in social work, buying into the idea that I’d obviously want to be the caretaker of my home as a women (from an evangelical household). I decided to pursue medicine instead and I’m perfectly happy with the balance and the income that allows me to get away from doing household duties I don’t personally want to do. Lots of girls in my Med school class had doctor moms and are so freaking proud of them- enough to pursue the same career.


MD hours are not the same as big law hours. In fact, it’s reasonably easy to find a PT job as a specialist (I have a cardiologist sister and an endo cousin who both work 3-4 days/week). After you get through the stress of your education and training, it’s a lot better
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2021 17:37     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Here's is what the women partners told me before I became a partner: you can't be both. If you want to stay in the practice and succeed, delegate, delegate, delegate, both at home and at work, but mostly at home. You need back up plans for your back up plans. Some had various combinations of the following: live in parents, nannies, au pairs, SAH or flexible spouses, always full child care coverage options (not always needed, but always available) from 7-10 pm, plus weekends; cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep (several had home chefs or full service housekeeping); tutors; sometimes drivers for the kids.


I would have walked out the door right then and there.

When are you delusional women going to realize that you are being asked to "delegate out" the very fabric of your lives?


Well, I wouldn't put it like that, but I had the same reaction. Cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, drop-off/pick-up, working with your kids on schoolwork - aren't all those things just....life? What is it teaching your kids when you pay people to do everything for you? Doing many of these tasks is a huge part of being and growing together and developing as a family. Some of my family's best conversations are during "chore" times, not during yay! fun! time!


I'm teaching them that if they get a good job that allows the extra cash for it that they can make the decision to outsource things that are less of a good use of their time. Honestly, my MIL was a stay-at-home mom who loves taking care of "her boys" and did all that for them and my FIL. You know what "her boys" have learned? That a woman will take care of all that for them. (My husband outgrew it before we met, my BIL and FIL still have not.) I was raised by a working mom, and I was doing laundry and cooking meals by middle school. Guess which one of us didn't dye their clothing pink by not knowing to sort red from whites? It wasn't me.

Household chores are not the "very fabric of [my life]" - god, what a dull existence you must have to think THAT'S what's important. Cleaning is boring, laundry is easy, cooking is my husband's thing, and we share helping with schoolwork, except that they will listen to the math tutor better than either of us. As soon as the pandemic is over, we're hiring a cleaning person with absolutely no apologies or concerns that I'm setting a bad example for my kids. We cook together for fun, they have chores/responsibilities around the house, and they're expected to help when asked. Life requires that you get your stuff done; it does not preclude you from paying others to take on the tasks you're not fulfilled by if you can afford it.


Exactly. I encourage women to pursue high paying careers and outsource things they don’t want to do, which will ultimately lead to more time with their kids and also professional satisfaction. I thought about SAHM or a lower wage career in social work, buying into the idea that I’d obviously want to be the caretaker of my home as a women (from an evangelical household). I decided to pursue medicine instead and I’m perfectly happy with the balance and the income that allows me to get away from doing household duties I don’t personally want to do. Lots of girls in my Med school class had doctor moms and are so freaking proud of them- enough to pursue the same career.


+1 Well said.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2021 17:01     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:. We do lots of talks in our house about the importance of education, providing value in the world and the importance of giving back. I have nothing but respect for SAHMs but if women keep mommy-tracking in droves, what does that teach our girls? How can we tell them to dream big, be whatever they want to be, and then model the opposite?


Well, being a SAHM mom is what I wanted to be for a couple of decades while I paused being in the paid workforce - it was my big dream.

Former SAHM here (returned to full time professional job after raising them) - we also talk about the importance of education, providing value and giving back, along with making intentional choices about doing what brings us joy. We talk about strategically taking risks and weighing what is important to us and to prioritize what gives our lives meaning rather than doing what society thinks we should or what everyone else is doing or what others deem is worthwhile to do.

I got my law degree, worked as a lawyer, then did the full-time mom thing for awhile before returning to working as a lawyer. I modeled being a woman who decided my joy was being home full-time for a finite period of time and returning to paid work later. It modeled critical thinking, risk assessment, strategic planning for career re-entry after a gap, and basically having the guts to take a risk to do a short-term job that I knew would not be available forever (because the opportunity to be home with the kids has an expiration date). My girls will make their own choices about what brings them joy. It is not a once size fits all.

I have nothing but respect for working moms, but not every job is the fulfillment of a big dream and not every working person has become the person they wanted to be.


Amen to this. And good for you for doing your best to find the balance that works for you and your family.
Anonymous
Post 04/27/2021 16:52     Subject: Big law mom with little kids
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:

Everyone has different wants, needs, and beliefs. You don't value an elite career with high earning potential and that's fine. Other people do and are willing to employ the village to help them. Let them be.


Call it what you want, but the village is pretty much raising the children in such situations.


+1 Ew don't call your hired help "the village." In an actual "village," you wouldn't get to go off doing something else for 8+ hrs a day while other women raise your child for you.


This is just such a weird perspective. Do you think teachers also raise your kids for you? Coaches for after school sports?


Seriously. Hired help is not a village.

Here is an example of a village: When DH was growing up abroad his mom was working and MIL’s sister’s husband’s relative offered to watch him, free, just because she could. What would we call that lady in the US? A crazy person? A sucker? Anyway hired help is not a village. A village is people who care about you and will help you even if you have nothing to offer in return in that moment. And then you pay it forward.



Standing ovation. This is such an important distinction. I’ve learned the hard way several times that nannies and sitters were NOT there for us when they had more exciting plans.