Anonymous
07/19/2019 13:01
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:To me, Jesus’ message seems so credible precisely because it is the ultimate humane approach in our modern, interconnected world. I don’t find religious concepts of favorite peoples or the “other” who is an enemy to be helpful in this age when we insult or even nuke each other with a finger on a button.
I find “love your enemy” and “turn the other cheek” to be great words to live by. Even if Tacitus didn’t bother to write them down or some DCUMer who knows little about Christianity complains that nobody can prove Paul met Jesus or the gospel writers weren’t making it all up.
If Jesus had said something like, “you’re my favorite group of people, now go out and conquer everybody else,” then I’d have doubts. (Obviously I think some historical interpretations of Christianity have been really untrue to the faith.)
So do I. But that's just philosophy. Has nothing to do with whether Jesus was the son of God, or got resurrected or other basic tenants of the faith
For that we have the Gospels and Paul. You claim these aren’t “good enough” because they were written shortly or a few years after his death. Despite the fact that these are pretty incredible sources given the difficulty in finding anything contemporaneous from that period. Or historians’ inability to explain why Jesus’ followers believed so strongly in him that they were still willing to die for his message decades after his death. Methinks that if we found a contemporaneous WAPO account of Jesus’ daily doings, you’d call it “fake news.”
Unfortunately for you, over a billion Christians find these sources not only adequate, but wholly sufficient. You’ll just have to suck up that fact.
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:56
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:To me, Jesus’ message seems so credible precisely because it is the ultimate humane approach in our modern, interconnected world. I don’t find religious concepts of favorite peoples or the “other” who is an enemy to be helpful in this age when we insult or even nuke each other with a finger on a button.
I find “love your enemy” and “turn the other cheek” to be great words to live by. Even if Tacitus didn’t bother to write them down or some DCUMer who knows little about Christianity complains that nobody can prove Paul met Jesus or the gospel writers weren’t making it all up.
If Jesus had said something like, “you’re my favorite group of people, now go out and conquer everybody else,” then I’d have doubts. (Obviously I think some historical interpretations of Christianity have been really untrue to the faith.)
Yes, you are free to ”believe” whatever you like. Have faith without any doubts that he existed.
Don’t get your panties in a bunch though because no one can actually prove it. That’s just how it is.
Grow up. You’re wrecking atheists’ reputation.
I didn’t realize that I represent all atheists. Do you represent all Christians or Jews or whatever flavor you are?
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:54
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:To me, Jesus’ message seems so credible precisely because it is the ultimate humane approach in our modern, interconnected world. I don’t find religious concepts of favorite peoples or the “other” who is an enemy to be helpful in this age when we insult or even nuke each other with a finger on a button.
I find “love your enemy” and “turn the other cheek” to be great words to live by. Even if Tacitus didn’t bother to write them down or some DCUMer who knows little about Christianity complains that nobody can prove Paul met Jesus or the gospel writers weren’t making it all up.
If Jesus had said something like, “you’re my favorite group of people, now go out and conquer everybody else,” then I’d have doubts. (Obviously I think some historical interpretations of Christianity have been really untrue to the faith.)
Yes, you are free to ”believe” whatever you like. Have faith without any doubts that he existed.
Don’t get your panties in a bunch though because no one can actually prove it. That’s just how it is.
Grow up. You’re wrecking atheists’ reputation.
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:54
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DP. The bottom line is that evidence from 2000+ years ago is really hard to come by. Yet the evidence for Jesus—Paul, the Gospels, Tacitus, Josephus—is pretty darn good for the era. Some of this may be contemporary, or written a few decades afterwards by people who knew Jesus. Other sources (Tacitus, Josephus) are from disinterested parties.
Atheist pp has tried to discredit all of it, but that’s a leap in itself and she’s been forced to come up with various “what ifs ” like schizophrenia.
Almost all (all?) serious scholars disagree with pp’s claim that Jesus as a person never existed. Whether you believe in his message of faith and salvation is a different matter, one of faith.
Well there's a bit more to it than that. Without the walking on water, raising people from the dead, healing the sick and so forth with you don't have enough to build a whole religion around do you? I think that's where the difficulty arises. In those days people accepted that these miraculous events were possible and didn't bat an eye. All the nations had gods with supernatural powers. Then came the age of reason in the 17th and 18th centuries and people started believing more in evidence before believing claims.
You’ve got this totally backwards. The religion is built around the message of love, forgiveness, and peace. That’s what I find compelling about Christianity. The miracles are dispensable and tangential.
I thought it was built on Jesus is your “get out of Hell free” card. You know, you just confess or “believe” and you’re all good. Basically built on fear.
^ specifically fear of going to hell if you don’t choose door A
How many times do we have to explain that that’s not the view taken by most Christians? I’m not gonna bother explaining it one more time for you.
Sure
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:46
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:To me, Jesus’ message seems so credible precisely because it is the ultimate humane approach in our modern, interconnected world. I don’t find religious concepts of favorite peoples or the “other” who is an enemy to be helpful in this age when we insult or even nuke each other with a finger on a button.
I find “love your enemy” and “turn the other cheek” to be great words to live by. Even if Tacitus didn’t bother to write them down or some DCUMer who knows little about Christianity complains that nobody can prove Paul met Jesus or the gospel writers weren’t making it all up.
If Jesus had said something like, “you’re my favorite group of people, now go out and conquer everybody else,” then I’d have doubts. (Obviously I think some historical interpretations of Christianity have been really untrue to the faith.)
Heck, even atheists can believe this, and I'm sure many do.
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:45
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:To me, Jesus’ message seems so credible precisely because it is the ultimate humane approach in our modern, interconnected world. I don’t find religious concepts of favorite peoples or the “other” who is an enemy to be helpful in this age when we insult or even nuke each other with a finger on a button.
I find “love your enemy” and “turn the other cheek” to be great words to live by. Even if Tacitus didn’t bother to write them down or some DCUMer who knows little about Christianity complains that nobody can prove Paul met Jesus or the gospel writers weren’t making it all up.
If Jesus had said something like, “you’re my favorite group of people, now go out and conquer everybody else,” then I’d have doubts. (Obviously I think some historical interpretations of Christianity have been really untrue to the faith.)
Or of God had said, I’ll smite your enemies for you. That’s not a God I could believe in.
Yes, everyone likes a good story. Honed over two millennia (or longer if parts of earlier stories were incorporated).
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:44
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:To me, Jesus’ message seems so credible precisely because it is the ultimate humane approach in our modern, interconnected world. I don’t find religious concepts of favorite peoples or the “other” who is an enemy to be helpful in this age when we insult or even nuke each other with a finger on a button.
I find “love your enemy” and “turn the other cheek” to be great words to live by. Even if Tacitus didn’t bother to write them down or some DCUMer who knows little about Christianity complains that nobody can prove Paul met Jesus or the gospel writers weren’t making it all up.
If Jesus had said something like, “you’re my favorite group of people, now go out and conquer everybody else,” then I’d have doubts. (Obviously I think some historical interpretations of Christianity have been really untrue to the faith.)
Yes, you are free to ”believe” whatever you like. Have faith without any doubts that he existed.
Don’t get your panties in a bunch though because no one can actually prove it. That’s just how it is.
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:43
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:To me, Jesus’ message seems so credible precisely because it is the ultimate humane approach in our modern, interconnected world. I don’t find religious concepts of favorite peoples or the “other” who is an enemy to be helpful in this age when we insult or even nuke each other with a finger on a button.
I find “love your enemy” and “turn the other cheek” to be great words to live by. Even if Tacitus didn’t bother to write them down or some DCUMer who knows little about Christianity complains that nobody can prove Paul met Jesus or the gospel writers weren’t making it all up.
If Jesus had said something like, “you’re my favorite group of people, now go out and conquer everybody else,” then I’d have doubts. (Obviously I think some historical interpretations of Christianity have been really untrue to the faith.)
Or of God had said, I’ll smite your enemies for you. That’s not a God I could believe in.
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:42
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:To me, Jesus’ message seems so credible precisely because it is the ultimate humane approach in our modern, interconnected world. I don’t find religious concepts of favorite peoples or the “other” who is an enemy to be helpful in this age when we insult or even nuke each other with a finger on a button.
I find “love your enemy” and “turn the other cheek” to be great words to live by. Even if Tacitus didn’t bother to write them down or some DCUMer who knows little about Christianity complains that nobody can prove Paul met Jesus or the gospel writers weren’t making it all up.
If Jesus had said something like, “you’re my favorite group of people, now go out and conquer everybody else,” then I’d have doubts. (Obviously I think some historical interpretations of Christianity have been really untrue to the faith.)
So do I. But that's just philosophy. Has nothing to do with whether Jesus was the son of God, or got resurrected or other basic tenants of the faith
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:42
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DP. The bottom line is that evidence from 2000+ years ago is really hard to come by. Yet the evidence for Jesus—Paul, the Gospels, Tacitus, Josephus—is pretty darn good for the era. Some of this may be contemporary, or written a few decades afterwards by people who knew Jesus. Other sources (Tacitus, Josephus) are from disinterested parties.
Atheist pp has tried to discredit all of it, but that’s a leap in itself and she’s been forced to come up with various “what ifs ” like schizophrenia.
Almost all (all?) serious scholars disagree with pp’s claim that Jesus as a person never existed. Whether you believe in his message of faith and salvation is a different matter, one of faith.
Well there's a bit more to it than that. Without the walking on water, raising people from the dead, healing the sick and so forth with you don't have enough to build a whole religion around do you? I think that's where the difficulty arises. In those days people accepted that these miraculous events were possible and didn't bat an eye. All the nations had gods with supernatural powers. Then came the age of reason in the 17th and 18th centuries and people started believing more in evidence before believing claims.
You’ve got this totally backwards. The religion is built around the message of love, forgiveness, and peace. That’s what I find compelling about Christianity. The miracles are dispensable and tangential.
I thought it was built on Jesus is your “get out of Hell free” card. You know, you just confess or “believe” and you’re all good. Basically built on fear.
^ specifically fear of going to hell if you don’t choose door A
How many times do we have to explain that that’s not the view taken by most Christians? I’m not gonna bother explaining it one more time for you.
You are confusing posters. You’ve never explained anything of the sort to me.
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:39
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DP. The bottom line is that evidence from 2000+ years ago is really hard to come by. Yet the evidence for Jesus—Paul, the Gospels, Tacitus, Josephus—is pretty darn good for the era. Some of this may be contemporary, or written a few decades afterwards by people who knew Jesus. Other sources (Tacitus, Josephus) are from disinterested parties.
Atheist pp has tried to discredit all of it, but that’s a leap in itself and she’s been forced to come up with various “what ifs ” like schizophrenia.
Almost all (all?) serious scholars disagree with pp’s claim that Jesus as a person never existed. Whether you believe in his message of faith and salvation is a different matter, one of faith.
Well there's a bit more to it than that. Without the walking on water, raising people from the dead, healing the sick and so forth with you don't have enough to build a whole religion around do you? I think that's where the difficulty arises. In those days people accepted that these miraculous events were possible and didn't bat an eye. All the nations had gods with supernatural powers. Then came the age of reason in the 17th and 18th centuries and people started believing more in evidence before believing claims.
You’ve got this totally backwards. The religion is built around the message of love, forgiveness, and peace. That’s what I find compelling about Christianity. The miracles are dispensable and tangential.
I thought it was built on Jesus is your “get out of Hell free” card. You know, you just confess or “believe” and you’re all good. Basically built on fear.
^ specifically fear of going to hell if you don’t choose door A
How many times do we have to explain that that’s not the view taken by most Christians? I’m not gonna bother explaining it one more time for you.
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:38
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
To me, Jesus’ message seems so credible precisely because it is the ultimate humane approach in our modern, interconnected world. I don’t find religious concepts of favorite peoples or the “other” who is an enemy to be helpful in this age when we insult or even nuke each other with a finger on a button.
I find “love your enemy” and “turn the other cheek” to be great words to live by. Even if Tacitus didn’t bother to write them down or some DCUMer who knows little about Christianity complains that nobody can prove Paul met Jesus or the gospel writers weren’t making it all up.
If Jesus had said something like, “you’re my favorite group of people, now go out and conquer everybody else,” then I’d have doubts. (Obviously I think some historical interpretations of Christianity have been really untrue to the faith.)
I find “love your enemy” and “turn the other cheek” to be great words to live by. Even if Tacitus didn’t bother to write them down or some DCUMer who knows little about Christianity complains that nobody can prove Paul met Jesus or the gospel writers weren’t making it all up.
If Jesus had said something like, “you’re my favorite group of people, now go out and conquer everybody else,” then I’d have doubts. (Obviously I think some historical interpretations of Christianity have been really untrue to the faith.)
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:36
Subject: Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:DP. The bottom line is that evidence from 2000+ years ago is really hard to come by. Yet the evidence for Jesus—Paul, the Gospels, Tacitus, Josephus—is pretty darn good for the era. Some of this may be contemporary, or written a few decades afterwards by people who knew Jesus. Other sources (Tacitus, Josephus) are from disinterested parties.
Atheist pp has tried to discredit all of it, but that’s a leap in itself and she’s been forced to come up with various “what ifs ” like schizophrenia.
Almost all (all?) serious scholars disagree with pp’s claim that Jesus as a person never existed. Whether you believe in his message of faith and salvation is a different matter, one of faith.
Well there's a bit more to it than that. Without the walking on water, raising people from the dead, healing the sick and so forth with you don't have enough to build a whole religion around do you? I think that's where the difficulty arises. In those days people accepted that these miraculous events were possible and didn't bat an eye. All the nations had gods with supernatural powers. Then came the age of reason in the 17th and 18th centuries and people started believing more in evidence before believing claims.
You’ve got this totally backwards. The religion is built around the message of love, forgiveness, and peace. That’s what I find compelling about Christianity. The miracles are dispensable and tangential.
I thought it was built on Jesus is your “get out of Hell free” card. You know, you just confess or “believe” and you’re all good. Basically built on fear.
^ specifically fear of going to hell if you don’t choose door A
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:33
Subject: Re:Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:^ I can forgive you if you do something bad to me, but I can't forgive your sins. Jesus believed he could do that.
That’s part of the message about God’s forgiveness and Jesus’ sacrifice. Nobody is asking you, a secular Jew, to believe it. But for Christians, that’s where faith comes in.
Fine. Nobody's arguing that I don't think. You can pick and choose from among the parts of the stories of Jesus you want. But you can also acknowledge that difficulty arises when you ignore the other parts you don't want to believe. If Jesus was a historical figure (I believe he was), what is the nature of this figure - a person who was baptized, engaged in ministry in Galilee and was crucified, or a miracle worker with divine powers who went up to heaven?
Anonymous
07/19/2019 12:26
Subject: Re:Life after church & not believing in God
Anonymous wrote:^ I can forgive you if you do something bad to me, but I can't forgive your sins. Jesus believed he could do that.
That’s part of the message about God’s forgiveness and Jesus’ sacrifice. Nobody is asking you, a secular Jew, to believe it. But for Christians, that’s where faith comes in.