Anonymous wrote:Instead of bean-counting who is privileged in what way, our society should be expending those resources making sure that there is equality of opportunity, not of outcome. Scales, affirmative action, etc., are all attempts to create equality of outcome in an unjust system. Instead, we need to make sure all children regardless of socioeconomic or racial makeup have access to childcare, healthcare, and excellent schools.

The frustrating thing is we have good evidence of what works to break the cycle of intergenerational poverty, crime, and incarceration. Providing quality childcare and pre-K along with in-home services (teaching the parent(s) basically) is proven to raise life outcomes, reduce crime, reduce spending on social services, and carries on to future generations.

I've really come to hate the word "privilege."

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a first generation immigrant from a poor Eastern European country. I'm also white and beautiful. I had minimal struggles despite being a poor immigrant only because I'm white and beautiful. I'm saying minimal, not none, because the vast majority of my managers have been mediocre white men with low intellect, degrees from podunk universities, with no communication or writing skills. Forget about leadership skills.
Georgetown came out with a great study showing that smarter kids from disadvantaged backgrounds are worse off than white kids with lower intellect.
The trend continues, at least at my work, where I advocated for hiring some amazing candidates with proven leadership skills, MIT degrees (I'm in tech). So far, for the last 3 years, we've been hiring only mediocre white men as they show the greatest potential for teamwork.

I guarantee you that nobody but you thinks you are that beautiful, sweetie.

I think she's just being honest; attractiveness confers enormous benefits, and it's silly to think that it doesn't. You're more likely to get hired, more likely to be paid a higher salary, etc. etc. It means privilege, and she's admitting that.

I'm at the invisibility threshold now, but being blonde and pretty definitely had its advantages. People were very willing to go out of their way to help for a smile and a thank you. At the same time, it's also a hindrance sometimes in a mostly male technical field because everyone is constantly shocked that I have expertise.

I think privilege has a lot more nuance than typically gets talked about but there are some major things that have been proven over and over to confer benefit -- two parent household, growing up without direct exposure to violence, access to healthcare, having an adult in your life who cares about you personally, etc. While SES certainly correlates to a lot of these, they can also exist independently of SES. Meanwhile we know race has significant health and life outcome impacts separate from SES (i.e. black maternal mortality, black neonatal birth weights, redlining and intergenerational wealth, ..)

Anonymous wrote:6 pages and only maybe two or three people answered the WHY in OP's initial post.

Because it is a meaningless, bait-and-switch term that smuggles in all sort of contested (and IMO false) assumptions. For example, take the kids at Whitman, a “privileged” bunch by any measure. People pretend they do better than other, less privileged groups, because they are given more than their fair share of a limited “lump of opportunity.” We all know, of course, that this is false. Suppose we bussed them en masse to an EOTP high school, replacing the existing population of students there entirely, and we force them to make due with the limited resources available in this “unprivileged” environment. Is there anyone who would be surprised when that EOTP school stopped looking so underprivileged anymore? Even those people concerned about “privilege” know this would be the result—that is why they don’t propose such solutions,

[Yes I hear the objection—it’s due to their privilege in middle school, or elementary school, or being in just the right playgroup, or because their privileged parents played them Mozart in the womb or whatever. No need to get into that endless debate here, no one is convincing anyone.]

The point, for purposes of this thread, is that implicit in the whole “privilege” discussion is the tacit assumption that such “privilege” is a material driver of outcomes. IMO there is little evidence for this, and it is at best debatable. So refusing to discuss the issue in those terms is a way of challenging the premise of the “privilege” framework. It is no surprise that people who don’t buy into this concept make that argumentative move.

Anonymous wrote:I am shocked by how many people are upset of the SAT adversity score. They do not want to admit the privileges that their children having growing up in a nice school district, safe school, etc. These are all great things! Everyone wants these things for their kids but sadly, many kids do not have access to these resources. Why are people so afraid to own that privilege and be proud of it while also working toward the same future for other kids? What are you afraid of? Honestly if you kid doesn't get into HPY and goes to say, UVA- what do you think will happen? Do you really think their future is lost? Are you afraid they will end up on the streets?

Seriously please help me understand...

The real source of privilege is going to college.

So, let's abolish all colleges and universities!!

Then we can do the same with schools, and then with workplaces.

And then with every house or condo larger than 1000 sq feet.

Let's all go back to our barbaric tribal past, free of privilege and all these pesky modern sufferings.

Who's with me?

Anonymous wrote:Most people's lives are not as simple or good as they appear and many who have done well have done it due to their own hard work or just pure luck and haven't had anything handed to them. There is such a hateful bias to skin color. Despite being white, many of us have had very difficult lives.

You are missing the point. The burden of being a POC is incremental to the life difficulties. All of us have life difficulties. I almost died and have significant health problems. But I can walk into a store and nobody assumes I'm there to steal, I was pulled over for speeding and got just a warning and I haven't been shot. The POC have to deal with the instant bias and discrimination for all their lives IN ADDITION to all the stuff we deal with, as white people. This is the hateful bias.

Anonymous wrote:People are tired of hearing about "their privilege" OP just because they are white. I'm white and grew up w/ 8 kids in my family. Am I "privileged" compared to people who grew up in most of the rest of the world? Yes. Did my people get killed in the Holocaust? Yes. I don't consider that a "privilege". Not everyone who is white feels the "privilege" they are ascribed to having by the media and are frankly tired of hearing about it.

Comparatively not everyone who is Latino is an illegal immigrant and are frankly tired of being presumed to be.
Comparatively not everyone who is Muslim is a terrorist and are frankly tired of being presumed to be.
Comparatively not everyone who is black is a criminal and are frankly tired of being presumed to be.

Which end of the stereotype spectrum would you rather be on?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My husband is an outlier in this regard - and I appreciate that. He’s tall, white, handsome, grew up UMC in a tony Boston suburb, superb education (Nobles, GW, Hopkins). He was given a winning hand at birth, and talks about his luck in life. Yes, he works hard, but acknowledges that his success comes mostly from his circumstances and peer group growing up.

GW is “superb”?

He got his first master’s there. And depending on the program - yes.

I’ll take your word for it.

Never fails. The elite love to beat their breasts over their privilege, but in the end, their snobbish, contemptuous nature is always revealed.

Kind of like Kelly Osbourne thinking she was being all woke when she asked who would clean Trump's toilets if he deported all Latinas.

Why don't you run back to your Pure Barre class and stop worrying about what other people won't admit?

Anonymous wrote:People are tired of hearing about "their privilege" OP just because they are white. I'm white and grew up w/ 8 kids in my family. Am I "privileged" compared to people who grew up in most of the rest of the world? Yes. Did my people get killed in the Holocaust? Yes. I don't consider that a "privilege". Not everyone who is white feels the "privilege" they are ascribed to having by the media and are frankly tired of hearing about it.

Just because you have adversity does not mean you don't have privilege... so why is it so hard to admit you have privilege?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

How do people avoid poverty if the minimum wage (which is all you can expect to earn, at least at first, if you have only an HS diploma) will not rent you a two-bedroom in 99 percent of the nation's counties? How do you pay for a trade school if all you're earning is minimum wage?

Read the PPs more closely.

You don't need a two-bedroom apartment all to yourself if you are single, and remember, you don't have kids yet!. You won't have kids for -years-.

So as a single 19 or 20 year old with a high school degree, earning minimum wage, you rent a room in a group house if you're in an expensive city. Maybe you even share that room that has 2 twin-size beds with another person?

If you're in, say, Dubuque IA, and group homes aren't a thing, you rent a basement from a SFH homeowner on the outskirts of town. Maybe you rent that basement with a roommate.

Are you in my hometown in Kansas, working in an agribusiness processing plant? Then you and 5 of your friends at the plant rent the whole damn house, and you follow the rules and don't trash the house and the owner lets you continue to rent for years as you attend night school at the county community college.

All of this is doable. It's hard as hell to live in deprivation without that second bedroom and balcony, but a healthy, childless, single 19 year old working 40+ hours a week can do it.

You don't even have to do the "rent a room" thing. Renting a (shared) apartment is a norm for most people into their mid-late 20s at least! And this is doable for someone with a high school diploma who gets a job as say...a cashier at Target or Walmart. They pay $17-18 an hour for people who HAVE a diploma...(and about $14 to those who do not.) Costco pays well too. There are many jobs open to those with a HIGH SCHOOL diploma.

But again, we are talking about getting a HS diploma, then getting a job, THEN starting a family after you've had a couple of years to start earning increases and saving up. It's not easy, but it is possible.

Will you own a 3 bedroom home by the time you're 32? Probably not.
But you likely will be able to afford a 2 bedroom apartment in your late 20s and count on being able to provide meals for your family. And that is well above the poverty level.

I hear the dog whistle. What this poster is saying is if all of "those people" stopped getting pregnant and dropping out of school to go on welfare, they would be better off--you know, no longer a drain on society. Perhaps the poster would like to look at the rates of teen pregnancy in this country. Might notice that the rates are dropping for black and Latina women, but remain high for young white women. Same for who is using public assistance.

Growing up and living as a black person in this country, I have always been very aware of the benefits conferred by privilege to other groups. I went to inner city schools where the bare minimum (books that still had my mother's name in them assigned as texts, no afterschool sports, activities, etc.) Both my parents worked. My dad worked two full time jobs so we could move to a better neighborhood. I attended junior high school in a school that was 75% white. I had never really seen that many white people outside of trips downtown or on the television. A fancy school with nice things and lots of resources was a real shocker--I felt like I had won the lottery. Except it came at a price. Like being asked if I was in the wrong classroom when I attended advanced and honors classes. Like having a teacher force me to repeat Algebra after 7th grade because he didn't believe someone like me could do the work, and having the school administrators and the county administrators back him fully, despite my grades, my assignments and my skills. I could go on and on. My dad always acknowledged the unfairness of it all and fought back as much as he could. But he also was clear with me about what was happening and why. I learned very quickly that as a black person, I had to work twice as hard to get half as much. And sometimes I have had to settle for second best in order to get a foot in the door. I got into an Ivy (on my own merit, thank you), but didn't have the money to make up the last 4K in tuition (and they wouldn't help). The message was clear there, too: We'll let you in but we won't help you. I had ample experience with the kinds of roadblocks the privileged will put in your way. Prove it. Prove yourself. It is exhausting. So I went to college elsewhere. On a full scholarship. Got excellent grades. Went straight to graduate school and got a PhD. Have a dream job and make plenty of money. And still, I see the look of surprise when I walk into a room.

Not having to think about those things is privilege.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm a first generation immigrant from a poor Eastern European country. I'm also white and beautiful. I had minimal struggles despite being a poor immigrant only because I'm white and beautiful. I'm saying minimal, not none, because the vast majority of my managers have been mediocre white men with low intellect, degrees from podunk universities, with no communication or writing skills. Forget about leadership skills.
Georgetown came out with a great study showing that smarter kids from disadvantaged backgrounds are worse off than white kids with lower intellect.
The trend continues, at least at my work, where I advocated for hiring some amazing candidates with proven leadership skills, MIT degrees (I'm in tech). So far, for the last 3 years, we've been hiring only mediocre white men as they show the greatest potential for teamwork.

I guarantee you that nobody but you thinks you are that beautiful, sweetie.

I was making decent money doing catalog work modeling in college (think Macy's) so I don't need your trivial guarantee. One of the PP is correct, being attractive is also a privilege. I married a successful, good looking guy from an UC family, which resulted in additional privilege. Even for men, being taller, which is a measure of attractiveness, results in better pay.
One of the smartest people in my team is a gay overweight WOC who is stuck at GS11, despite working her butt off. We had another AA woman who retired early because she was getting everyone's work done. She was in customer service and people in the industry were so upset when she left because she was the only one actually doing something and responding to their inquiries. She was never considered for a better technical position although she had the experience and skills for it. She was also the most gracious and kind person, which is unbelievable to me.
These are concrete examples of minorities who are overlooked for promotions and held behind, despite being better at the jobs they do.

This kind of thing happens all the time. There was an AA woman at my ex-husband’s federal job who was way more qualified (years, education, performance) than a man (white) who was passed over for a promotion. The guy got the promotion.

anecdote does not equal data. How about the AA woman at my federal workplace who had no college degree, but sued because a white man with a law degree was promoted (to a job that clearly required a knowledge of law) instead of her? She won her suit and subsequently was given a job that paid the same wage that she never showed up for. I worked in the office about six months before I knew she existed -- she finally showed up one day because she needed to do some paperwork with Admin.

People are tired of hearing about "their privilege" OP just because they are white. I'm white and grew up w/ 8 kids in my family. Am I "privileged" compared to people who grew up in most of the rest of the world? Yes. Did my people get killed in the Holocaust? Yes. I don't consider that a "privilege". Not everyone who is white feels the "privilege" they are ascribed to having by the media and are frankly tired of hearing about it.

Many people see that other people have more privilege and they only see their own adversity.

They are hard pressed to see their own privilege.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am shocked by how many people are upset of the SAT adversity score. They do not want to admit the privileges that their children having growing up in a nice school district, safe school, etc. These are all great things! Everyone wants these things for their kids but sadly, many kids do not have access to these resources. Why are people so afraid to own that privilege and be proud of it while also working toward the same future for other kids? What are you afraid of? Honestly if you kid doesn't get into HPY and goes to say, UVA- what do you think will happen? Do you really think their future is lost? Are you afraid they will end up on the streets?

Seriously please help me understand...

I'm not sure you really want to understand, because it seems rather obvious but here goes: They believe that admitting these privileges will be used as a way of discrediting their achievements and glossing over whatever hardships they faced that are less obvious or measurable. And they are often correct. Just see the comments in this thread. They fear the adversity score will be misused in inappropriate ways, rewarding some and penalizing others in a system that is easy to game or which doesn't correctly account for the diversity of their experience because it's not a measured (or perhaps measurable) criteria. These are all very legitimate concerns, and I say this as someone who agrees with the sentiment that we should be working towards a future where all kids are entitled to great schools and opportunities.

Agree with the assertion that the comments in this thread justify this fear. It's clear that, for some, the fact that such a system would be unfair to individuals with privilege (as they define it) is the point.

Anonymous wrote:

If you kid doesn't get into HPY and goes to say, UVA- what do you think will happen?

Ostracization

All these same people who scream about merit want their kids to get into these elite schools so that they can use their Network and privilege to step into a tidy job opp

so all that idea of hard work and working yourself up the ladder is really bad when actually applied to themselves

where you end up largely depends on where you start