Anonymous wrote:^I will keep it simple for now. Try the Radiolab podcast

1 episode discusses the Olympic athlete who has a ton of testosterone and tests as a man, but biologically is a woman. Should she be banned from competing as a woman?

our understanding of chromosomes is also changing. What the previous posts are doing is relying on basic understandings of biology instead of emerging research.


https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/gonads-xy

and if you want to read how the scene is Shifting here a Scientific American. Try to be open-minded.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-science-of-sex-and-gender/

You want me to listen to radiolab because, what, you can't present your argument? I started listening, but there's a lot of nonsense at the beginning and I'm not a fan of listening to what sounds like a poorly produced podcast (which is strange, since radiolab is typically of decently high quality). Summarize.

Explain what you mean "biologically is a woman." If the olympic athlete you're talking about has a Y chromosome, that athlete is biologically a male.
I have sympathy for people who have ambiguous genitalia, and and are raised as women even though they're male. That's a really challenging situation and it's definitely one we should talk about. These people are not, however, transgender, and their particular challenges don't demonstrate any changing of humans being biologically male or biologically female, any more than babies born without two legs change our understanding of humans being bipedal. Transgender people need to stop co-opting the struggles of people who are born with genetic anomalies, those create challenges of their own.

For your second link, which you also couldn't be bothered to summarize (did you not understand it?).
Of course we've found accidents of birth. We find bits of bodies in humans all the time, I assume from incompletely absorbed twins, or other oddities. None of this changes what it is to be human. And there have been oh so many studies about sex differences in the brains of men and women, and we've learned there is no pink brain and there is no blue brain. Women aren't born to find math hard. Men aren't born to be violent thugs. That's society and socialization. Just like the push back from people saying no, Asians aren't unfixably smarter than caucasians of European ancestry, socialization plays a huge role and holding them up as the standard for smarts is just as much of a problem as it is to say those poor dumb white folks just need to stop trying.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I self identify as older and collect SS checks?

Not only should you be able to do that, but you should be able to identify as an entire GROUP of people, men and women and other, alike, and collect a check for each and every one of them!


I mean, it's no MORE absurd than a 38 year old man declaring that "she" is a woman now, and demanding everyone use "her" preferred pronoun and allow her access to women's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I mean, we've already crossed that Rubicon.... So how dare anyone tell you that you CANNOT identify as a group of 9 senior citizens?

HAHA I completely agree. I am a liberal, but even I am baffled by this insanity about how you “feel” is what matters re: sex/gender. That nutty logic can and should apply to many other contexts. Otherwise, let’s admit that biology matters.

Are you aware the transgender people who go to the bathroom of their birth sex often have tremendous problems. MtF transexuals who use mens rooms are often subject to assault. FtM transexuals in women's rooms are suspected if being their to commit assault. Its not an easy path, and I don't think people just "declare" it for arbitrary reasons.

People with mental illnesses often have all sorts of problems interacting with society. My schizophrenic cousin can't get anyone to believe him that he's being persecuted by the government. He believes it absolutely, and it's terrifying for him. It affects how he behaves, but he doesn't get a pass to behave in socially unacceptable ways just because he's schizophrenic. He has to do his best to follow social norms and following existing laws (e.g. he doesn't get to carry a gun to feel safer from government goons out to get him).

Women are taught that men are dangerous (for good reason). Men are taught they can do whatever they wish to women with impunity. How about we work on fixing that so women no longer have good reason to fear male-presenting or male-bodied people, and men no longer think they can assault female-presenting or female-bodied people. That would make everyone's lives significantly better, and probably even resolve the very narrow issue of which bathroom people should use.

Lol

^I will keep it simple for now. Try the Radiolab podcast

1 episode discusses the Olympic athlete who has a ton of testosterone and tests as a man, but biologically is a woman. Should she be banned from competing as a woman?

our understanding of chromosomes is also changing. What the previous posts are doing is relying on basic understandings of biology instead of emerging research.


https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/gonads-xy

and if you want to read how the scene is Shifting here a Scientific American. Try to be open-minded.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/the-new-science-of-sex-and-gender/

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I self identify as older and collect SS checks?

Not only should you be able to do that, but you should be able to identify as an entire GROUP of people, men and women and other, alike, and collect a check for each and every one of them!


I mean, it's no MORE absurd than a 38 year old man declaring that "she" is a woman now, and demanding everyone use "her" preferred pronoun and allow her access to women's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I mean, we've already crossed that Rubicon.... So how dare anyone tell you that you CANNOT identify as a group of 9 senior citizens?

HAHA I completely agree. I am a liberal, but even I am baffled by this insanity about how you “feel” is what matters re: sex/gender. That nutty logic can and should apply to many other contexts. Otherwise, let’s admit that biology matters.

of course biology matters. That is why I, a previous poster, am I arguing that it's really transex, not transgender.

as I said previously, new and legitimate research is showing that sex is not just binary like male and female. Varying levels of testosterone, estrogen, and new understanding of sex and chromosomes is just as important as understanding that biology matters

Citation(s) please.

Humans have two types of gametes and two types of sex steroids. There are, occasionally, anomalous outcomes, such as people with intersex conditions, but those anomalies don't change human definitions anymore than someone born with just one leg changes the biological fact that humans are bipedal mammals. Just like the extra chromosome someone with Downs Syndrome has doesn't make them non-human, but it also doesn't change the fact that humans have 46 chromosomes unless there's a birth defect.

Within the sexes, there are ranges of sex hormones, just as there are ranges of heights. Someone isn't less male because they have less testosterone than average any more than they're less male because they're shorter than average.

Biologically male humans cannot become biologically female humans. They can wear dresses. They can take drugs to help grow breasts. They can put on a feminine aspect and ask people to consider them a transwoman. But they remain biologically male. They cannot change sex. They can only change "gender" because gender has come to mean the performance that we stereotypically associate with a given sex. Transgender people seek to reinforce stereotypical behavior as a way to gain social acceptance of their performative behavior.

This is a very good post.

Neither gender nor age are social constructs. Saying so makes you sound like a dumbass.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I self identify as older and collect SS checks?

Not only should you be able to do that, but you should be able to identify as an entire GROUP of people, men and women and other, alike, and collect a check for each and every one of them!


I mean, it's no MORE absurd than a 38 year old man declaring that "she" is a woman now, and demanding everyone use "her" preferred pronoun and allow her access to women's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I mean, we've already crossed that Rubicon.... So how dare anyone tell you that you CANNOT identify as a group of 9 senior citizens?

HAHA I completely agree. I am a liberal, but even I am baffled by this insanity about how you “feel” is what matters re: sex/gender. That nutty logic can and should apply to many other contexts. Otherwise, let’s admit that biology matters.

Are you aware the transgender people who go to the bathroom of their birth sex often have tremendous problems. MtF transexuals who use mens rooms are often subject to assault. FtM transexuals in women's rooms are suspected if being their to commit assault. Its not an easy path, and I don't think people just "declare" it for arbitrary reasons.

People with mental illnesses often have all sorts of problems interacting with society. My schizophrenic cousin can't get anyone to believe him that he's being persecuted by the government. He believes it absolutely, and it's terrifying for him. It affects how he behaves, but he doesn't get a pass to behave in socially unacceptable ways just because he's schizophrenic. He has to do his best to follow social norms and following existing laws (e.g. he doesn't get to carry a gun to feel safer from government goons out to get him).

Women are taught that men are dangerous (for good reason). Men are taught they can do whatever they wish to women with impunity. How about we work on fixing that so women no longer have good reason to fear male-presenting or male-bodied people, and men no longer think they can assault female-presenting or female-bodied people. That would make everyone's lives significantly better, and probably even resolve the very narrow issue of which bathroom people should use.

it might. But meanwhile that is not the case, which is the main reason we have seperate gender bathrooms, and its a big problem for transgender people. As for the comparison to schizophenia, that really says more about you. In fact most transgender people are completely aware of reality, and their reporting about their sense of identity seems to be accurate. Their concerns are not about paranoid illusions. The American Psychiatric Associaton appears to agree.

But I suppose psychiatrists, like climate scientists, etc should defer to the speculative arguments of internet users.

We have separate sex bathrooms. Which yes, is a big problem when someone wishes to dissociate from their biological sex.

You can browse twitter and find transgender woman claiming to have period symptoms. Since they lack a uterus, and thus the muscle contractions to cause cramps, and since they're usually taking a regular dose of hormones, vs the way hormones fluctuate throughout a woman's cycle, they're not exactly demonstrating a tight hold on reality. Other transgender women claim they've changed sex, which is biologically impossible. Again, not demonstrating a tight hold on reality. I think they have a lot in common with my cousin. Their mental illness has caused them to hold beliefs which are not based in reality, and whereas we attempt to treat my cousin and keep him functional, for some reason it's been decided by many that transgender people should be allowed not only to hold on to their delusions, but that the rest of us should play along.

You're right, perhaps I should compare them to my great-grandmother, who before she died suffered from dementia and the nursing home suggested it would be a kindness if we didn't argue with her but just played along. Of course, my great-grandmother was dying and in a protected space, so playing along caused no harm to anyone. Playing along with transgender people puts other people in harm's way (https://abc30.com/homeless-women-harassed-in-shower-lawsuit-says/3514544/ in case you think it hasn't happened) and causes disadvantages for women and girls, just as allowing my cousin to carry a gun could put other people in harm's way.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I self identify as older and collect SS checks?

Not only should you be able to do that, but you should be able to identify as an entire GROUP of people, men and women and other, alike, and collect a check for each and every one of them!


I mean, it's no MORE absurd than a 38 year old man declaring that "she" is a woman now, and demanding everyone use "her" preferred pronoun and allow her access to women's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I mean, we've already crossed that Rubicon.... So how dare anyone tell you that you CANNOT identify as a group of 9 senior citizens?

HAHA I completely agree. I am a liberal, but even I am baffled by this insanity about how you “feel” is what matters re: sex/gender. That nutty logic can and should apply to many other contexts. Otherwise, let’s admit that biology matters.

of course biology matters. That is why I, a previous poster, am I arguing that it's really transex, not transgender.

as I said previously, new and legitimate research is showing that sex is not just binary like male and female. Varying levels of testosterone, estrogen, and new understanding of sex and chromosomes is just as important as understanding that biology matters

Citation(s) please.

Humans have two types of gametes and two types of sex steroids. There are, occasionally, anomalous outcomes, such as people with intersex conditions, but those anomalies don't change human definitions anymore than someone born with just one leg changes the biological fact that humans are bipedal mammals. Just like the extra chromosome someone with Downs Syndrome has doesn't make them non-human, but it also doesn't change the fact that humans have 46 chromosomes unless there's a birth defect.

Within the sexes, there are ranges of sex hormones, just as there are ranges of heights. Someone isn't less male because they have less testosterone than average any more than they're less male because they're shorter than average.

Biologically male humans cannot become biologically female humans. They can wear dresses. They can take drugs to help grow breasts. They can put on a feminine aspect and ask people to consider them a transwoman. But they remain biologically male. They cannot change sex. They can only change "gender" because gender has come to mean the performance that we stereotypically associate with a given sex. Transgender people seek to reinforce stereotypical behavior as a way to gain social acceptance of their performative behavior.

Time isn’t a real thing. People invented the concept of measuring time. I wouldn’t call it a social construct, but it is definitely something people created.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I self identify as older and collect SS checks?

Not only should you be able to do that, but you should be able to identify as an entire GROUP of people, men and women and other, alike, and collect a check for each and every one of them!


I mean, it's no MORE absurd than a 38 year old man declaring that "she" is a woman now, and demanding everyone use "her" preferred pronoun and allow her access to women's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I mean, we've already crossed that Rubicon.... So how dare anyone tell you that you CANNOT identify as a group of 9 senior citizens?

HAHA I completely agree. I am a liberal, but even I am baffled by this insanity about how you “feel” is what matters re: sex/gender. That nutty logic can and should apply to many other contexts. Otherwise, let’s admit that biology matters.

Are you aware the transgender people who go to the bathroom of their birth sex often have tremendous problems. MtF transexuals who use mens rooms are often subject to assault. FtM transexuals in women's rooms are suspected if being their to commit assault. Its not an easy path, and I don't think people just "declare" it for arbitrary reasons.

People with mental illnesses often have all sorts of problems interacting with society. My schizophrenic cousin can't get anyone to believe him that he's being persecuted by the government. He believes it absolutely, and it's terrifying for him. It affects how he behaves, but he doesn't get a pass to behave in socially unacceptable ways just because he's schizophrenic. He has to do his best to follow social norms and following existing laws (e.g. he doesn't get to carry a gun to feel safer from government goons out to get him).

Women are taught that men are dangerous (for good reason). Men are taught they can do whatever they wish to women with impunity. How about we work on fixing that so women no longer have good reason to fear male-presenting or male-bodied people, and men no longer think they can assault female-presenting or female-bodied people. That would make everyone's lives significantly better, and probably even resolve the very narrow issue of which bathroom people should use.

it might. But meanwhile that is not the case, which is the main reason we have seperate gender bathrooms, and its a big problem for transgender people. As for the comparison to schizophenia, that really says more about you. In fact most transgender people are completely aware of reality, and their reporting about their sense of identity seems to be accurate. Their concerns are not about paranoid illusions. The American Psychiatric Associaton appears to agree.

But I suppose psychiatrists, like climate scientists, etc should defer to the speculative arguments of internet users.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I self identify as older and collect SS checks?

Not only should you be able to do that, but you should be able to identify as an entire GROUP of people, men and women and other, alike, and collect a check for each and every one of them!


I mean, it's no MORE absurd than a 38 year old man declaring that "she" is a woman now, and demanding everyone use "her" preferred pronoun and allow her access to women's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I mean, we've already crossed that Rubicon.... So how dare anyone tell you that you CANNOT identify as a group of 9 senior citizens?

HAHA I completely agree. I am a liberal, but even I am baffled by this insanity about how you “feel” is what matters re: sex/gender. That nutty logic can and should apply to many other contexts. Otherwise, let’s admit that biology matters.

of course biology matters. That is why I, a previous poster, am I arguing that it's really transex, not transgender.

as I said previously, new and legitimate research is showing that sex is not just binary like male and female. Varying levels of testosterone, estrogen, and new understanding of sex and chromosomes is just as important as understanding that biology matters

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I self identify as older and collect SS checks?

Not only should you be able to do that, but you should be able to identify as an entire GROUP of people, men and women and other, alike, and collect a check for each and every one of them!


I mean, it's no MORE absurd than a 38 year old man declaring that "she" is a woman now, and demanding everyone use "her" preferred pronoun and allow her access to women's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I mean, we've already crossed that Rubicon.... So how dare anyone tell you that you CANNOT identify as a group of 9 senior citizens?

HAHA I completely agree. I am a liberal, but even I am baffled by this insanity about how you “feel” is what matters re: sex/gender. That nutty logic can and should apply to many other contexts. Otherwise, let’s admit that biology matters.

Are you aware the transgender people who go to the bathroom of their birth sex often have tremendous problems. MtF transexuals who use mens rooms are often subject to assault. FtM transexuals in women's rooms are suspected if being their to commit assault. Its not an easy path, and I don't think people just "declare" it for arbitrary reasons.

People with mental illnesses often have all sorts of problems interacting with society. My schizophrenic cousin can't get anyone to believe him that he's being persecuted by the government. He believes it absolutely, and it's terrifying for him. It affects how he behaves, but he doesn't get a pass to behave in socially unacceptable ways just because he's schizophrenic. He has to do his best to follow social norms and following existing laws (e.g. he doesn't get to carry a gun to feel safer from government goons out to get him).

Women are taught that men are dangerous (for good reason). Men are taught they can do whatever they wish to women with impunity. How about we work on fixing that so women no longer have good reason to fear male-presenting or male-bodied people, and men no longer think they can assault female-presenting or female-bodied people. That would make everyone's lives significantly better, and probably even resolve the very narrow issue of which bathroom people should use.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I self identify as older and collect SS checks?

Not only should you be able to do that, but you should be able to identify as an entire GROUP of people, men and women and other, alike, and collect a check for each and every one of them!


I mean, it's no MORE absurd than a 38 year old man declaring that "she" is a woman now, and demanding everyone use "her" preferred pronoun and allow her access to women's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I mean, we've already crossed that Rubicon.... So how dare anyone tell you that you CANNOT identify as a group of 9 senior citizens?

HAHA I completely agree. I am a liberal, but even I am baffled by this insanity about how you “feel” is what matters re: sex/gender. That nutty logic can and should apply to many other contexts. Otherwise, let’s admit that biology matters.

Are you aware the transgender people who go to the bathroom of their birth sex often have tremendous problems. MtF transexuals who use mens rooms are often subject to assault. FtM transexuals in women's rooms are suspected if being their to commit assault. Its not an easy path, and I don't think people just "declare" it for arbitrary reasons.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t think gender is a social construct. I also think age is not a construct either.

+1. Try harder OP, dumb question.

This question is obviously geared to those who DO believe gender is a social construct.

I think this question is geared to people who believe that gender and sex are synonyms and want yet another opportunity to complain about transgender people on DCUM.

Ya think?

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Of course they do. All people with disabilities and medical conditions are considered people worthy of equal respect. That doesn't mean their condition says anything other than that they have a genetic anomaly. If you have an anomaly in your heart it doesn't speak to a larger question about whether there is a 'right' kind of heart. There is a right kind of heart that functions in an ideal way for human thriving and survival. The same is true for gender/sex. It doesn't mean there is ANYTHING wrong with people with heart defects or gender dysphoria.

Human beings have two legs! Except for the ones who don't.

And no one would/should say anything bad about someone with one leg or some other situation, but they also would acknowledge that two legs is the biologically/evoluntionarily normal human condition.

Note the meaningful distinction between "Most human beings have two legs" and "Human beings have two legs".

This is where it becomes ridiculous. Anyone who gets offended by someone saying 'human beings have two legs' is being ridiculous. Humans are supposed to have two legs. There are a multitude of reasons a specific human might not have two legs. Those reasons are all medical conditions based on accidents or genetic anomalies. Do you object to saying 'dogs have four legs'? Some dogs have three legs. But if you go around muddying the waters on everything then you can't say anything at all. When I teach my kid about humans and dogs I say, 'dogs have four legs and humans have two legs' and then you talk about exceptions as they arise or when you talk about handicapped people.

I am a liberal with a transgender cousin who I fully support in living her life they way she wants to live it, but I do not think that she is neurotypical or that her brain works in a way that the human brain is evolutionarily designed to work.

Why? What if a human decide that he wants to get rid of one of his/her leg? What is the difference between cutting your leg off and cutting your penis off?

Well one difference is that we let people cut their penises off but you would be hard pressed to find a doctor who would cut off one of your legs for no reason

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Can I self identify as older and collect SS checks?

Not only should you be able to do that, but you should be able to identify as an entire GROUP of people, men and women and other, alike, and collect a check for each and every one of them!


I mean, it's no MORE absurd than a 38 year old man declaring that "she" is a woman now, and demanding everyone use "her" preferred pronoun and allow her access to women's bathrooms and locker rooms.

I mean, we've already crossed that Rubicon.... So how dare anyone tell you that you CANNOT identify as a group of 9 senior citizens?

HAHA I completely agree. I am a liberal, but even I am baffled by this insanity about how you “feel” is what matters re: sex/gender. That nutty logic can and should apply to many other contexts. Otherwise, let’s admit that biology matters.