Anonymous wrote:I moved into Chantilly from PWC just so my kids could attend Chantilly HS for what worth.

Well, let’s just say that you haven’t convinced me to move to Chantilly.

I moved into Chantilly from PWC just so my kids could attend Chantilly HS for what worth.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No catching up necessary. All those high schools within that ten mile radius are all About equivalent. Few minor differences but nothing to get your feathers ruffled about....Oakton, Robinson, Madison, Fairfax , Woodson, West Springfield, Chantilly, Marshall. Your kid will get a good education at any one of these.

This is probably the sanest thing on this thread.

Realistically, you have:

TJ (not a separate toer since its a regional governors school.

Tier 1: Langley and McLean

Tier 2: Oakton, Woodson, Madison, Chantilly, West Springfield, Marshall, Robinson, LBSS— and one will top the other depending on how you prioritize the numbers and which factors you give more weight. But a smart kid from a UMC home will get a great education at any of them.

Tier 3: Fairfax, Westfield, Centreville, Herndon, South County, SLHS, W. Potomac, Hayfield

Tier 4: Mt Vernon, Lee, Justice (Stuart), Annandale, Edison, Falls Church— which makes it very hard to justify continuing IB at all of these schools except FC. Keep it at SLHS, Marshall, Robinson (where it is working) and one of these. But, that’s a different thread.

It is hard to see Fairfax in Tier 2. They are GS 7, like Westfield and Centreville, and average SAT scores for 2017 came in below SLHS, Herndon and Centreville.

I would say Tier 1 also includes George Maon, Tier 2 includes Yorktown and W-L, and Tier 4 includes TC Williams and Wakefield.

But maybe if the new principal does a good job Madison can catch up with Oakton and Marshall.

Anonymous wrote:No catching up necessary. All those high schools within that ten mile radius are all About equivalent. Few minor differences but nothing to get your feathers ruffled about....Oakton, Robinson, Madison, Fairfax , Woodson, West Springfield, Chantilly, Marshall. Your kid will get a good education at any one of these.

This is probably the sanest thing on this thread.

Realistically, you have:

TJ (not a separate toer since its a regional governors school.

Tier 1: Langley and McLean

Tier 2: Oakton, Woodson, Madison, Chantilly, West Springfield, Marshall, Robinson, LBSS— and one will top the other depending on how you prioritize the numbers and which factors you give more weight. But a smart kid from a UMC home will get a great education at any of them.

Tier 3: Fairfax, Westfield, Centreville, Herndon, South County, SLHS, W. Potomac, Hayfield

Tier 4: Mt Vernon, Lee, Justice (Stuart), Annandale, Edison, Falls Church— which makes it very hard to justify continuing IB at all of these schools except FC. Keep it at SLHS, Marshall, Robinson (where it is working) and one of these. But, that’s a different thread.

It is hard to see Fairfax in Tier 2. They are GS 7, like Westfield and Centreville, and average SAT scores for 2017 came in below SLHS, Herndon and Centreville.

No catching up necessary. All those high schools within that ten mile radius are all About equivalent. Few minor differences but nothing to get your feathers ruffled about....Oakton, Robinson, Madison, Fairfax , Woodson, West Springfield, Chantilly, Marshall. Your kid will get a good education at any one of these.

Anonymous wrote:NP

...that reputation has been changing with the new principal coming over from Thoreau MS....

...and as someone actually involved in the school your last statement is entirely false

School rating systems only provide a high level take on the school, you (the royal you)...needs to determine what is best for you child individually. New families continue to move into Madison pyramid schools don't seem to be too upset with their choice... US News and Great Schools rankings (or non-rankings), make Madison a "best kept secret"...then fine/. You all can have your who's best after TJ McLean/Langley/Yorktown cage match...

So which is it? Madison posters going to great lengths to deconstruct ratings methodologies so they can claim they are "unfair" to Madison, or Madison posters claiming ratings are irrelevant?

Madison parents have played the ratings game far too long to pretend the school will ever be a "best kept secret." But maybe if the new principal does a good job Madison can catch up with Oakton and Marshall.

NP

...that reputation has been changing with the new principal coming over from Thoreau MS....

...and as someone actually involved in the school your last statement is entirely false

School rating systems only provide a high level take on the school, you (the royal you)...needs to determine what is best for you child individually. New families continue to move into Madison pyramid schools don't seem to be too upset with their choice... US News and Great Schools rankings (or non-rankings), make Madison a "best kept secret"...then fine/. You all can have your who's best after TJ McLean/Langley/Yorktown cage match...

Actually, Madison has always had the reputation of being very focused on its white, upper middle-class kids, particularly if they were athletes, while other, more diverse schools like Marshall did a better job of meeting the needs of all their students.

I don't think PP has nearly as much visibility into which of Madison's FARMS kids are ESOL. They've just made assumptions to help support an argument that Madison is being unfairly treated. It's not just US News that is penalizing Madison. Its Great Schools rating has dropped to a 7, which isn't great for a school with Madison's demographics. Now that Madison is dropping in the rankings, they may pay attention to the kids that were largely ignored in the past. It's about time.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Challenge Index hasn't been updated this year. This is a more recent assessment of the top high schools in the state.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/virginia

It is not a better list, it is a different list.

It’s open to debate whether it’s a better methodology.

It is a fact that it was published more recently.

Yes. It is a list that is published more recently. But, it is a crap list: it ranks on a college readiness index they define, only they throw out certain schools because a sub-group does badly. I am sorry if one group does bad, but if the overall college readiness index says 75%, it should be listed in the place as 75%. Skip the gold medal, maybe....

It's not a crap list because it declines to rank schools that are doing a below-average job with their minority and low-income students (Yorktown and Madison being the prime examples). People pay attention to the US News ratings and maybe this will give those schools an incentive to do better.

If you want a list that goes solely by college readiness (students both taking and passing AP/IB courses), you can look at the E&E rating on the Washington Post site. The top 10 NoVa public schools by E&E rating (TJHSST is not ranked because it's a magnet) are:

1. George Mason
2. H-B Woodlawn
3. Langley
4. McLean
5. Madison
6. Yorktown
7. Marshall
8. Oakton
9. Robinson
10. Woodson

Here is why it is a crap list. I have dug into the numbers. A school that was excluded because of FARMS performance (underprivileged) has a 90% pass rate on Non-ESL, but 60% on ESL kids. All of the schools in the county have similar rates. The only difference is some schools have a higher percentage of FARMs kids that are also ESL. At Madison, 10% FARMS, but 55% of the FARMS kids are ESL. That leads to a 73% pass rate. By comparison, Oakton, which is ranked #6 in the state, and a gold Medal recipient is 40% of FARMS kids are ESL, which gives them a demographically, 76% pass rate for FARMS. If Madison had more FARMS that were not ESL, they would be between Oakton and McLean.

The problem is non-english speakers or limited English speakers have problems in school. This means that the fact that Madison's poor region is almost 60% immigrant is what hurts them.

No one from Madison had an issue with US News rankings when Madison was in the top 10.

If you have a problem with this list, you should have a problem with any. Holding other schools' demographics constant, while adjusting Madison's demographics to "cure" the issues that led Madison to be unranked or to be ranked lower, is an exercise that could be repeated by schools that face far more challenges than Madison.

You are missing the point. The same issues effect all of the schools. The problem is 60% of FARMS are non English speakers for Madison; it is 40% for oakton, etc. Most schools have the English speaking FARMS kids performing almost as well as the English Speaking non-farms kids.

Poor Madison. Maybe if Vienna were more welcoming to FARMS families, Madison wouldn't have to worry so much about having the wrong balance of low-income students.

Anyway, you mean "affect," not "effect," and it's up to the school to work with the students that go there.

The problem with the rankings is they treat all FARMS kids the same. Some schools (Madison and Yorktown), the majority of FARMS kids are non-english speakers. FCPS wide, that cohort is about 60% proficient. In FCPS, the % of FARMS kids that pass can be estimated by a simple formula: F=number of FARMS, N=number of non-native English speakers.

%FARMS PASSING=(N*.6+ (F-N)*.92)/F*100. This holds for every school I have examined.

The specific issue is USNews excludes any school is below state means (74%). So a small change in demographics changes a school from gold medalist to unranked. This is why it the USNEWS ranking is CRAP. School wide, Madison is at about 90% proficient. That includes everyone, including the underprivileged (FARMS). The FARMS are then ranked separately. They are trying to assess how they handle the underprivileged students, which is a worthy goal, but not all underprivileged are the same.

+1

Madison is very welcoming to FARMS kids -- you can be giving and gracious when you have plenty yourself. They recently set up a food pantry in the school to help those who need a little more. Schools like Madison (and Thoreau) have PTAs that are well-funded -- which means the PTAs can cover the expenses of kids who can't afford it on its own. PP is right that not all FARMS kids can be colored with the same brush. An English-speaking kid who comes from a family with limited resources is not facing the same educational challenges as a kid who is just learning English (and probably hasn't had much of a formal education -- or has had bits and pieces of formal education). These ranking systems fail when they penalize the highest performing schools for having a few of the most challenging students. Those students are getting the best education possible. But, if those same students were at a lower performing school, the school wouldn't be penalized as much b/c the DIFFERENCE b/t the most challenging (ESOL+FARMS kids) and the rest of the population (mediocre) isn't as stark as the difference at the better schools. The lesson is either (a) it's better to be a mediocre school all around, or (b) discourage placement of the most challenging kids in high performing schools. Neither is what we should be doing. That's the perverse incentive of penalizing schools when there is a very high performing population and a small, very challenging population. Fortunately, those who know schools like Madison know that it is as high performing as it has always been.... and they will still be welcoming to those who are most-challenged.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Challenge Index hasn't been updated this year. This is a more recent assessment of the top high schools in the state.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/virginia

It is not a better list, it is a different list.

It’s open to debate whether it’s a better methodology.

It is a fact that it was published more recently.

Yes. It is a list that is published more recently. But, it is a crap list: it ranks on a college readiness index they define, only they throw out certain schools because a sub-group does badly. I am sorry if one group does bad, but if the overall college readiness index says 75%, it should be listed in the place as 75%. Skip the gold medal, maybe....

It's not a crap list because it declines to rank schools that are doing a below-average job with their minority and low-income students (Yorktown and Madison being the prime examples). People pay attention to the US News ratings and maybe this will give those schools an incentive to do better.

If you want a list that goes solely by college readiness (students both taking and passing AP/IB courses), you can look at the E&E rating on the Washington Post site. The top 10 NoVa public schools by E&E rating (TJHSST is not ranked because it's a magnet) are:

1. George Mason
2. H-B Woodlawn
3. Langley
4. McLean
5. Madison
6. Yorktown
7. Marshall
8. Oakton
9. Robinson
10. Woodson

Here is why it is a crap list. I have dug into the numbers. A school that was excluded because of FARMS performance (underprivileged) has a 90% pass rate on Non-ESL, but 60% on ESL kids. All of the schools in the county have similar rates. The only difference is some schools have a higher percentage of FARMs kids that are also ESL. At Madison, 10% FARMS, but 55% of the FARMS kids are ESL. That leads to a 73% pass rate. By comparison, Oakton, which is ranked #6 in the state, and a gold Medal recipient is 40% of FARMS kids are ESL, which gives them a demographically, 76% pass rate for FARMS. If Madison had more FARMS that were not ESL, they would be between Oakton and McLean.

The problem is non-english speakers or limited English speakers have problems in school. This means that the fact that Madison's poor region is almost 60% immigrant is what hurts them.

No one from Madison had an issue with US News rankings when Madison was in the top 10.

If you have a problem with this list, you should have a problem with any. Holding other schools' demographics constant, while adjusting Madison's demographics to "cure" the issues that led Madison to be unranked or to be ranked lower, is an exercise that could be repeated by schools that face far more challenges than Madison.

You are missing the point. The same issues effect all of the schools. The problem is 60% of FARMS are non English speakers for Madison; it is 40% for oakton, etc. Most schools have the English speaking FARMS kids performing almost as well as the English Speaking non-farms kids.

Poor Madison. Maybe if Vienna were more welcoming to FARMS families, Madison wouldn't have to worry so much about having the wrong balance of low-income students.

Anyway, you mean "affect," not "effect," and it's up to the school to work with the students that go there.

The problem with the rankings is they treat all FARMS kids the same. Some schools (Madison and Yorktown), the majority of FARMS kids are non-english speakers. FCPS wide, that cohort is about 60% proficient. In FCPS, the % of FARMS kids that pass can be estimated by a simple formula: F=number of FARMS, N=number of non-native English speakers.

%FARMS PASSING=(N*.6+ (F-N)*.92)/F*100. This holds for every school I have examined.

The specific issue is USNews excludes any school is below state means (74%). So a small change in demographics changes a school from gold medalist to unranked. This is why it the USNEWS ranking is CRAP. School wide, Madison is at about 90% proficient. That includes everyone, including the underprivileged (FARMS). The FARMS are then ranked separately. They are trying to assess how they handle the underprivileged students, which is a worthy goal, but not all underprivileged are the same.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Challenge Index hasn't been updated this year. This is a more recent assessment of the top high schools in the state.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/virginia

It is not a better list, it is a different list.

It’s open to debate whether it’s a better methodology.

It is a fact that it was published more recently.

Yes. It is a list that is published more recently. But, it is a crap list: it ranks on a college readiness index they define, only they throw out certain schools because a sub-group does badly. I am sorry if one group does bad, but if the overall college readiness index says 75%, it should be listed in the place as 75%. Skip the gold medal, maybe....

It's not a crap list because it declines to rank schools that are doing a below-average job with their minority and low-income students (Yorktown and Madison being the prime examples). People pay attention to the US News ratings and maybe this will give those schools an incentive to do better.

If you want a list that goes solely by college readiness (students both taking and passing AP/IB courses), you can look at the E&E rating on the Washington Post site. The top 10 NoVa public schools by E&E rating (TJHSST is not ranked because it's a magnet) are:

1. George Mason
2. H-B Woodlawn
3. Langley
4. McLean
5. Madison
6. Yorktown
7. Marshall
8. Oakton
9. Robinson
10. Woodson

Here is why it is a crap list. I have dug into the numbers. A school that was excluded because of FARMS performance (underprivileged) has a 90% pass rate on Non-ESL, but 60% on ESL kids. All of the schools in the county have similar rates. The only difference is some schools have a higher percentage of FARMs kids that are also ESL. At Madison, 10% FARMS, but 55% of the FARMS kids are ESL. That leads to a 73% pass rate. By comparison, Oakton, which is ranked #6 in the state, and a gold Medal recipient is 40% of FARMS kids are ESL, which gives them a demographically, 76% pass rate for FARMS. If Madison had more FARMS that were not ESL, they would be between Oakton and McLean.

The problem is non-english speakers or limited English speakers have problems in school. This means that the fact that Madison's poor region is almost 60% immigrant is what hurts them.

No one from Madison had an issue with US News rankings when Madison was in the top 10.

If you have a problem with this list, you should have a problem with any. Holding other schools' demographics constant, while adjusting Madison's demographics to "cure" the issues that led Madison to be unranked or to be ranked lower, is an exercise that could be repeated by schools that face far more challenges than Madison.

You are missing the point. The same issues effect all of the schools. The problem is 60% of FARMS are non English speakers for Madison; it is 40% for oakton, etc. Most schools have the English speaking FARMS kids performing almost as well as the English Speaking non-farms kids.

Poor Madison. Maybe if Vienna were more welcoming to FARMS families, Madison wouldn't have to worry so much about having the wrong balance of low-income students.

Anyway, you mean "affect," not "effect," and it's up to the school to work with the students that go there.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Challenge Index hasn't been updated this year. This is a more recent assessment of the top high schools in the state.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/virginia

It is not a better list, it is a different list.

It’s open to debate whether it’s a better methodology.

It is a fact that it was published more recently.

Yes. It is a list that is published more recently. But, it is a crap list: it ranks on a college readiness index they define, only they throw out certain schools because a sub-group does badly. I am sorry if one group does bad, but if the overall college readiness index says 75%, it should be listed in the place as 75%. Skip the gold medal, maybe....

It's not a crap list because it declines to rank schools that are doing a below-average job with their minority and low-income students (Yorktown and Madison being the prime examples). People pay attention to the US News ratings and maybe this will give those schools an incentive to do better.

If you want a list that goes solely by college readiness (students both taking and passing AP/IB courses), you can look at the E&E rating on the Washington Post site. The top 10 NoVa public schools by E&E rating (TJHSST is not ranked because it's a magnet) are:

1. George Mason
2. H-B Woodlawn
3. Langley
4. McLean
5. Madison
6. Yorktown
7. Marshall
8. Oakton
9. Robinson
10. Woodson

Here is why it is a crap list. I have dug into the numbers. A school that was excluded because of FARMS performance (underprivileged) has a 90% pass rate on Non-ESL, but 60% on ESL kids. All of the schools in the county have similar rates. The only difference is some schools have a higher percentage of FARMs kids that are also ESL. At Madison, 10% FARMS, but 55% of the FARMS kids are ESL. That leads to a 73% pass rate. By comparison, Oakton, which is ranked #6 in the state, and a gold Medal recipient is 40% of FARMS kids are ESL, which gives them a demographically, 76% pass rate for FARMS. If Madison had more FARMS that were not ESL, they would be between Oakton and McLean.

The problem is non-english speakers or limited English speakers have problems in school. This means that the fact that Madison's poor region is almost 60% immigrant is what hurts them.

No one from Madison had an issue with US News rankings when Madison was in the top 10.

If you have a problem with this list, you should have a problem with any. Holding other schools' demographics constant, while adjusting Madison's demographics to "cure" the issues that led Madison to be unranked or to be ranked lower, is an exercise that could be repeated by schools that face far more challenges than Madison.

You are missing the point. The same issues effect all of the schools. The problem is 60% of FARMS are non English speakers for Madison; it is 40% for oakton, etc. Most schools have the English speaking FARMS kids performing almost as well as the English Speaking non-farms kids.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Challenge Index hasn't been updated this year. This is a more recent assessment of the top high schools in the state.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/virginia

It is not a better list, it is a different list.

It’s open to debate whether it’s a better methodology.

It is a fact that it was published more recently.

Yes. It is a list that is published more recently. But, it is a crap list: it ranks on a college readiness index they define, only they throw out certain schools because a sub-group does badly. I am sorry if one group does bad, but if the overall college readiness index says 75%, it should be listed in the place as 75%. Skip the gold medal, maybe....

It's not a crap list because it declines to rank schools that are doing a below-average job with their minority and low-income students (Yorktown and Madison being the prime examples). People pay attention to the US News ratings and maybe this will give those schools an incentive to do better.

If you want a list that goes solely by college readiness (students both taking and passing AP/IB courses), you can look at the E&E rating on the Washington Post site. The top 10 NoVa public schools by E&E rating (TJHSST is not ranked because it's a magnet) are:

1. George Mason
2. H-B Woodlawn
3. Langley
4. McLean
5. Madison
6. Yorktown
7. Marshall
8. Oakton
9. Robinson
10. Woodson

Here is why it is a crap list. I have dug into the numbers. A school that was excluded because of FARMS performance (underprivileged) has a 90% pass rate on Non-ESL, but 60% on ESL kids. All of the schools in the county have similar rates. The only difference is some schools have a higher percentage of FARMs kids that are also ESL. At Madison, 10% FARMS, but 55% of the FARMS kids are ESL. That leads to a 73% pass rate. By comparison, Oakton, which is ranked #6 in the state, and a gold Medal recipient is 40% of FARMS kids are ESL, which gives them a demographically, 76% pass rate for FARMS. If Madison had more FARMS that were not ESL, they would be between Oakton and McLean.

The problem is non-english speakers or limited English speakers have problems in school. This means that the fact that Madison's poor region is almost 60% immigrant is what hurts them.

No one from Madison had an issue with US News rankings when Madison was in the top 10.

If you have a problem with this list, you should have a problem with any. Holding other schools' demographics constant, while adjusting Madison's demographics to "cure" the issues that led Madison to be unranked or to be ranked lower, is an exercise that could be repeated by schools that face far more challenges than Madison.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The Challenge Index hasn't been updated this year. This is a more recent assessment of the top high schools in the state.

https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/virginia

It is not a better list, it is a different list.

It’s open to debate whether it’s a better methodology.

It is a fact that it was published more recently.

Yes. It is a list that is published more recently. But, it is a crap list: it ranks on a college readiness index they define, only they throw out certain schools because a sub-group does badly. I am sorry if one group does bad, but if the overall college readiness index says 75%, it should be listed in the place as 75%. Skip the gold medal, maybe....

It's not a crap list because it declines to rank schools that are doing a below-average job with their minority and low-income students (Yorktown and Madison being the prime examples). People pay attention to the US News ratings and maybe this will give those schools an incentive to do better.

If you want a list that goes solely by college readiness (students both taking and passing AP/IB courses), you can look at the E&E rating on the Washington Post site. The top 10 NoVa public schools by E&E rating (TJHSST is not ranked because it's a magnet) are:

1. George Mason
2. H-B Woodlawn
3. Langley
4. McLean
5. Madison
6. Yorktown
7. Marshall
8. Oakton
9. Robinson
10. Woodson

Here is why it is a crap list. I have dug into the numbers. A school that was excluded because of FARMS performance (underprivileged) has a 90% pass rate on Non-ESL, but 60% on ESL kids. All of the schools in the county have similar rates. The only difference is some schools have a higher percentage of FARMs kids that are also ESL. At Madison, 10% FARMS, but 55% of the FARMS kids are ESL. That leads to a 73% pass rate. By comparison, Oakton, which is ranked #6 in the state, and a gold Medal recipient is 40% of FARMS kids are ESL, which gives them a demographically, 76% pass rate for FARMS. If Madison had more FARMS that were not ESL, they would be between Oakton and McLean.

The problem is non-english speakers or limited English speakers have problems in school. This means that the fact that Madison's poor region is almost 60% immigrant is what hurts them.