Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Makeup's oppressive in this heat, am I right or what?

Fixed it for you.

Thank you - I was too hot and oppressed to fix the link myself.

Winter is coming.

And then we can go back to cake-ing the oppression all over our faces.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish you would have been more diplomatic, PP, but I agree with you. I support women's rights to make decisions for themselves first and foremost, but grit my teeth at this pablum about "feeling more confident" and "doing it for myself" when all they are doing is supporting the patriarchal doctrine that women's faces (bodies, hair, breasts) are not beautiful in their natural and unaltered form. Women should feel confident because of their accomplishments and abilities, not their makeup or how their breasts look.

You, even being somewhat more diplomatic than our militantly unwell friend, are still off-base. Yes, I shave my legs and underarms (when I bother to) basically because society says I should. But part of that is self-maintenance. Where do you draw the line? What's acceptable to you and Ms. Militant? Is shampoo acceptable? Is conditioner over the top because we don't really need it? Should pixie cuts be mandatory lest some woman feel pretty with shoulder length hair? Is my plucking my full beard acceptable, or do I need to be one of the uncommon women who just has a beard because only "society" deems it unacceptable? Is wearing a bra bad in your minds because you think I want my H's to look better or because I don't want a sweat rash and an aching back at the end of the day. Does my wearing makeup for myself mean more to you because I'm a SAHM and, legitimately, no one but my children usually sees me until 5:00 pm? Is it alright with you if I carve out this adult ritual as something separate and apart just for from changing diapers, wiping noses, cleaning and playing children's games, or am I still a sheep brainwashed and made dumb by the patriarchy?

You may have made your argument more eloquently, but you're both still condescending, rude and full of assumptions.

I love it! I'm militant and unwell because I can see that all of this shit is on a continuum? You people are hilarious and really really defensive. You honestly don't get the difference between basic hygiene and all the beauty industry bullshit we really don't need? How is pointing out this obvious thing rude or condescending? I have touched a very sensitive nerve. Really, step back and think about it.

Yeah, I'm done with you. You're bat shit crazy. And a jerk, honestly. You haven't touched a nerve, you're not revealing some grand truth. Here's a grand truth: showering is on the same continuum. Basic hygiene flows into light makeup. You are arbitrarily assigning necessity to one and saying another is oppressive. Why? I have no idea your motivation. Other than you delight in being a prick and thinking you "struck a nerve."

I think we need to invest in some

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Makeup's oppressive in this heat, am I right or what?

Fixed it for you.

Thank you - I was too hot and oppressed to fix the link myself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wish you would have been more diplomatic, PP, but I agree with you. I support women's rights to make decisions for themselves first and foremost, but grit my teeth at this pablum about "feeling more confident" and "doing it for myself" when all they are doing is supporting the patriarchal doctrine that women's faces (bodies, hair, breasts) are not beautiful in their natural and unaltered form. Women should feel confident because of their accomplishments and abilities, not their makeup or how their breasts look.

You, even being somewhat more diplomatic than our militantly unwell friend, are still off-base. Yes, I shave my legs and underarms (when I bother to) basically because society says I should. But part of that is self-maintenance. Where do you draw the line? What's acceptable to you and Ms. Militant? Is shampoo acceptable? Is conditioner over the top because we don't really need it? Should pixie cuts be mandatory lest some woman feel pretty with shoulder length hair? Is my plucking my full beard acceptable, or do I need to be one of the uncommon women who just has a beard because only "society" deems it unacceptable? Is wearing a bra bad in your minds because you think I want my H's to look better or because I don't want a sweat rash and an aching back at the end of the day. Does my wearing makeup for myself mean more to you because I'm a SAHM and, legitimately, no one but my children usually sees me until 5:00 pm? Is it alright with you if I carve out this adult ritual as something separate and apart just for from changing diapers, wiping noses, cleaning and playing children's games, or am I still a sheep brainwashed and made dumb by the patriarchy?

You may have made your argument more eloquently, but you're both still condescending, rude and full of assumptions.

I love it! I'm militant and unwell because I can see that all of this shit is on a continuum? You people are hilarious and really really defensive. You honestly don't get the difference between basic hygiene and all the beauty industry bullshit we really don't need? How is pointing out this obvious thing rude or condescending? I have touched a very sensitive nerve. Really, step back and think about it.

Yeah, I'm done with you. You're bat shit crazy. And a jerk, honestly. You haven't touched a nerve, you're not revealing some grand truth. Here's a grand truth: showering is on the same continuum. Basic hygiene flows into light makeup. You are arbitrarily assigning necessity to one and saying another is oppressive. Why? I have no idea your motivation. Other than you delight in being a prick and thinking you "struck a nerve."

^^^ should read "than the standards," not "then the standards." typing too fast. sorry.

Anonymous wrote:One can enjoy makeup and understand marketing. If you look back through history, women didn't start using clothes and makeup to look a certain way only after fashion magazines told them to do it.

If you'd like to see how much fun makeup can be, I suggest you check out some of Kevin Aucoin's books.

That's not true. Women throughout history have conformed to societal ideals of dress and appearance. Women were doing crazy things in the name of beauty and attracting men long before fashion magazines.

The sad reality is that for much of history, women's primary worth has been viewed as either an object of beauty ("beauty" being defined by the norms of the time/place) and/or a babymaking machine.

I don't care if women wear makeup and spend lots of money to wear supposedly "fashionable" clothes or accessories. I do think that it's valid to point out that, as far as we have come, these threads and others are proof that our worth and value is still tied up a lot in the two things I mention above (beauty and fertility). Sure, there are standards for men, but on the whole, throughout history and now, men have had a lot more freedom to define their worth outside of being attractive and/or father material. An unattractive bachelor still has other avenues of worth (power, prestige, career). An unattractive single woman can be successful in a career and have power, and she is still hounded about being unattractive (according to norms) and childless/husbandless.

And the standards for men as far as hygiene and maintenance have ALWAYS been significantly less burdensome then the standards for women. As an ex of mine used to say, "All men have to do every morning is shit, shower, and shave."

I do firmly believe, though, that a lot of the pressure to wear makeup and participate in "fashion" comes from other women, not men. Just read the forums here about how bent out of shape women get about other women wearing capris.

And the women on here arguing that makeup and fashion are "artistic" expressions are full of it. Look at the threads on tattoos. I'm sure the very same women who think their ridiculous beauty regimen of spending an hour or an hour and a half on applying makeup, styling their hair, not to mention the time they spend getting their hair colored or highlighted or whatever, those very same women will demonize women who get tattoos.

If makeup and fashion is your way of expressing yourself, then you shouldn't care how other women decorate their bodies to express themselves.