Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:42     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote:NP, AA Woman and just catching up with this story. Just watched the video. Jeez, this really strikes me as a situation where a northern black person didn't "know their place" while they were in the south. Except, it's 2015, not 1965. A shame.

That said, she should not have escalated like she did, given that she's black and the cop has a gun and the power in the situation. Not fair, but that's the facts.


THIS. Racist power tripper decided to school her. He didn't expect to kill her, but his actions led to her death.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:41     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't know how to say this without sounding like a real c*nt, but I'm saying it anyway. When he asked her to put out the cigarette, why was she so pissy and disrespectful? Did I miss part of the video, was he hateful to her first. We all know most cops are arrogant assholes. But we don't have to be belligerent back. Just do what they say and no one gets hurt.


So it's okay for the police to attack you for smoking in your car. Wow. WTF has happened to people in this country?


It's always the initial action that the defenders revert back to. NO, it's not ok to be attacked for smoking in your car. NO, it's not ok to be killed for stealing a bag of chips. But, she wasn't attacked for smoking in her car. She reacted in such a hostile way, she escalated everything. Do you actually excuse (and endorse) the blatant disrespect and anti-authoritarian stance she took?


He is a trained police officer. No matter how much of an ass the citizen is, he should be capable of restraint.

If my kid is an ass to his teacher, I don't expect the teacher to beat him, no matter how much my kid is "asking for it". Trained professionals are expected to maintain a higher standard.

He should have written her a ticket for the failure to signal and sent her on her way.

By your logic, anything the cop asks you to do during a traffic stop, you should just do, because it's not worth getting killed over.

Cops are not God. We have a right and even a responsibility to stand up for our rights. We should not have to cower before policemen because if we don't,they might kill us.

It's not illegal to be hostile or a jerk or disrespectful. I agree, it's not wise and I don't endorse it. But average citizens should not end up dead for being jerks.

Cops should be better than that.

Frankly I can't believe people are actually excusing, and endorsing, a citizen ending up dead because she was (you say) nasty to a cop.


I am astounded that people can't admit that she should have kept her flippin' mouth shut. Believe it or not, one can RESPECTFULLY stand up for his rights. Hateful comebacks and outright refusal to comply with a normal request is not standing up for rights, it's just being aggressive to rebel. I totally agree this cop is a creep. He way overdid it - and however she died, it's a horrible, horrible and undeserved result. I can admit he went overboard, but unfortunately when you push and test your limits with an a-hole, you're going to get sh*t on.


NP - seriously? Why is it a "normal request" to insist that she put out a cigarette that she is legally smoking in her own car? I'm not a smoker but I know how addictive it can be. She clearly wanted to smoke the rest of that cigarette (perhaps it was her last?) and who is he to say that she shouldn't. And she is perfectly right that he has NO RIGHT to insist that she step out of the car for a jumped up charge of failing to signal. She was absolutely completely in the right when he asked her why she was upset and she said that she was upset because he sped up close behind her, so she moved out of his way (which is an utterly normal response to a cop who is driving aggressively behind you) and then, because she was helpful and tried to do what she THOUGHT he wanted her to do, he stops her and tries to ticket her for not having signaled. Give me a break. He intentionally set her up, 100 percent. On the whole, I wish people would signal more and drive more considerately, but she was not being inconsiderate when she switched lanes and nothing she did was dangerous. She did not deserve a ticket, it was not a lawful traffic stop and he had no right to insist she put out her cigarette, get out of the car, or be arrested. I mean, WTF, he essentially arrested her for "resisting arrest", how bullshit is that?
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:35     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
NP, AA Woman and just catching up with this story. Just watched the video. Jeez, this really strikes me as a situation where a northern black person didn't "know their place" while they were in the south. Except, it's 2015, not 1965. A shame.

That said, she should not have escalated like she did, given that she's black and the cop has a gun and the power in the situation. Not fair, but that's the facts.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:33     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm an AA woman and I've been pulled over by the police a fair number of times throughout my life for speeding (maybe 4-5). 1/2 of those times I've gotten a ticket. In my interaction with the police in a traffic stop, I dont understand the mentality of anyone who escalates the situation by flat out not doing what the policeman asks you to do. In that moment he's got a gun and and I've got....my bad-ass attitude?


Black woman here. While I agree with you, DAMN it's hard not to be pissed sometimes. I, admittedly, have a big problem with that sort of authority. I usually don't say much back but they can clearly tell from my demeanor that I'm pissed.


There are two different things here. First, would it have been wiser for Sandra Bland to have been compliant and subdued and not acted annoyed and put out her cigarette when the cop asked her to? Obviously, yes because then maybe she wouldn't have ended up dead! (MAYBE. Of course many black Americans in recent times have been murdered by the police with less "provocation" than this.)

Separately, was she morally and legally justified in acting annoyed, refusing to put the cigarette out, asking why she was being asked to get out of the car and then arrested? YES!

On the other hand, was the cop justified in ANYTHING he did starting with asking her to put her cigarette out? NO! He had no right to ask her to do that. No reason to tell her to get out of the car. No legal reason to arrest her. Absolutely no reason to become physical with her, threaten to "light her up," hurt her while handcuffing her, tell her it was "good" she had epilepsy (!), and, it seems quite likely, ultimately participate in killing her.

This is the same reason many black parents tell their children to act hyper-respectful and subservient towards cops so they don't get killed. That is good advice given the reality of the world we live in and the apparently horrible state of police training and racism. But it SHOULD NOT be necessary. The police should not be arresting or beating or killing people for talking back or acting annoyed or asking valid questions. That this is even a point that needs to be argued is amazing!

Btw i am white and have never experienced anything like this video. It is so far out of my experience with the police I can't even say. I am almost never pulled over, have gotten a ticket only once even though I have deserved it many more times, and have NEVER been asked to leave my car. The foreignness of it is what makes me feel like, well it also seems crazy that the police would murder this woman in her jail cell, but given how the cop acted in the video, I have to think it's possible.

I can't even imagine the pain that Sandra's family and friends are experiencing.



+1 trillion.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:28     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:She broke the law initially. She was wrong. She put herself in that situation.

There are some police officers that do have an attitude, but black or white, you be polite and comply and deal with the ticket/warning after the fact.

She esclated the the interaction...no sympthay for her.


In all earnest, I hope you get hit by a bus PP. No sympathy for you.


A bus, really? Have you no imagination??? How about an asteroid instead? Much more news worthy!


Don't be absurd. A bus is sufficient, and more likely.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:27     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote: It is abso-frreaking amazing to me that people are putting more onus on the citizen than on the cop. This man issued orders he had NO LEGAL RIGHT TO DO! He has been restricted to desk duty for violations due to this arrest. And we are still hearing from people who somehow believe that a pissy ass attitude trumps violating citizens' legal rights and a dereliction of your duty as an officer. At some point we will need to wake to realize we need to do something about being afraid to die because the cop does not like our attitude when we assert our legal rights. A big mouth is not the problem.


I look at it like this. I'm a pedestrian and have the green walk signal and begin crossing in the crosswalk. Here comes a bus running the light, when clearly I have the right of way. I can be right and get hit by a car or let that violation go and not get hit. Sure the cop was in the wrong....but he has the gun, I dont. In a battle of wills on the street with him I will lose every-time.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:17     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
It is abso-frreaking amazing to me that people are putting more onus on the citizen than on the cop. This man issued orders he had NO LEGAL RIGHT TO DO! He has been restricted to desk duty for violations due to this arrest. And we are still hearing from people who somehow believe that a pissy ass attitude trumps violating citizens' legal rights and a dereliction of your duty as an officer. At some point we will need to wake to realize we need to do something about being afraid to die because the cop does not like our attitude when we assert our legal rights. A big mouth is not the problem.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:12     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm an AA woman and I've been pulled over by the police a fair number of times throughout my life for speeding (maybe 4-5). 1/2 of those times I've gotten a ticket. In my interaction with the police in a traffic stop, I dont understand the mentality of anyone who escalates the situation by flat out not doing what the policeman asks you to do. In that moment he's got a gun and and I've got....my bad-ass attitude?


Black woman here. While I agree with you, DAMN it's hard not to be pissed sometimes. I, admittedly, have a big problem with that sort of authority. I usually don't say much back but they can clearly tell from my demeanor that I'm pissed.


There are two different things here. First, would it have been wiser for Sandra Bland to have been compliant and subdued and not acted annoyed and put out her cigarette when the cop asked her to? Obviously, yes because then maybe she wouldn't have ended up dead! (MAYBE. Of course many black Americans in recent times have been murdered by the police with less "provocation" than this.)

Separately, was she morally and legally justified in acting annoyed, refusing to put the cigarette out, asking why she was being asked to get out of the car and then arrested? YES!

On the other hand, was the cop justified in ANYTHING he did starting with asking her to put her cigarette out? NO! He had no right to ask her to do that. No reason to tell her to get out of the car. No legal reason to arrest her. Absolutely no reason to become physical with her, threaten to "light her up," hurt her while handcuffing her, tell her it was "good" she had epilepsy (!), and, it seems quite likely, ultimately participate in killing her.

This is the same reason many black parents tell their children to act hyper-respectful and subservient towards cops so they don't get killed. That is good advice given the reality of the world we live in and the apparently horrible state of police training and racism. But it SHOULD NOT be necessary. The police should not be arresting or beating or killing people for talking back or acting annoyed or asking valid questions. That this is even a point that needs to be argued is amazing!

Btw i am white and have never experienced anything like this video. It is so far out of my experience with the police I can't even say. I am almost never pulled over, have gotten a ticket only once even though I have deserved it many more times, and have NEVER been asked to leave my car. The foreignness of it is what makes me feel like, well it also seems crazy that the police would murder this woman in her jail cell, but given how the cop acted in the video, I have to think it's possible.

I can't even imagine the pain that Sandra's family and friends are experiencing.



I'm one of the previous AA women posters who has been ticket several times. I would love to live in a world where police never overstep their authority but people are people. There are jerks in every profession but usually those professions dont give them the authority to use their gun when dealing with me for a minor infraction (should they deem it necessary). It's best to contact a lawyer later if you feel you've been wronged than to try to hash it out on the side of a street with a cop who may be....a jerk, having a bad day, over-worked or all of the above.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:09     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm an AA woman and I've been pulled over by the police a fair number of times throughout my life for speeding (maybe 4-5). 1/2 of those times I've gotten a ticket. In my interaction with the police in a traffic stop, I dont understand the mentality of anyone who escalates the situation by flat out not doing what the policeman asks you to do. In that moment he's got a gun and and I've got....my bad-ass attitude?


Black woman here. While I agree with you, DAMN it's hard not to be pissed sometimes. I, admittedly, have a big problem with that sort of authority. I usually don't say much back but they can clearly tell from my demeanor that I'm pissed.


There are two different things here. First, would it have been wiser for Sandra Bland to have been compliant and subdued and not acted annoyed and put out her cigarette when the cop asked her to? Obviously, yes because then maybe she wouldn't have ended up dead! (MAYBE. Of course many black Americans in recent times have been murdered by the police with less "provocation" than this.)

Separately, was she morally and legally justified in acting annoyed, refusing to put the cigarette out, asking why she was being asked to get out of the car and then arrested? YES!

On the other hand, was the cop justified in ANYTHING he did starting with asking her to put her cigarette out? NO! He had no right to ask her to do that. No reason to tell her to get out of the car. No legal reason to arrest her. Absolutely no reason to become physical with her, threaten to "light her up," hurt her while handcuffing her, tell her it was "good" she had epilepsy (!), and, it seems quite likely, ultimately participate in killing her.

This is the same reason many black parents tell their children to act hyper-respectful and subservient towards cops so they don't get killed. That is good advice given the reality of the world we live in and the apparently horrible state of police training and racism. But it SHOULD NOT be necessary. The police should not be arresting or beating or killing people for talking back or acting annoyed or asking valid questions. That this is even a point that needs to be argued is amazing!

Btw i am white and have never experienced anything like this video. It is so far out of my experience with the police I can't even say. I am almost never pulled over, have gotten a ticket only once even though I have deserved it many more times, and have NEVER been asked to leave my car. The foreignness of it is what makes me feel like, well it also seems crazy that the police would murder this woman in her jail cell, but given how the cop acted in the video, I have to think it's possible.

I can't even imagine the pain that Sandra's family and friends are experiencing.



I'm white and I've been pulled over a couple times for speeding. Both times I cried my way out of a ticket (not on purpose, I cry easily). Also, I was younger, I doubt it would work now.

My brothers have been pulled over, and sometimes been let off with a warning, sometimes gotten a ticket, and, one of them, more than once been arrested and roughed up by the cop. I don't understand why my brother was so confrontational. Maybe it was the anger that PP referred to.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:07     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
So I watched the video, and I think she was very antagonistic and resisting orders, and I think the cop was awful and unnecessarily escalating the situation. Poor behavior on both sides, and in that situation I tend to blame the one with more power, training, and responsibility (the cop).

That said, setting aside the tragic ending of this case, what IS an appropriate way for a cop to behave when someone is getting increasingly belligerent, not following orders, inside a car where they can potentially reach for things, etc? Hopefully they would have the skill to de-escalate, but not everyone can be calmed down. Should police just end the interaction if it is below a certain level of seriousness? Seems like that would lead to more belligerence and bad interactions for routine traffic stops. For more serious suspicions, obviously they can't just tell the person to go on their way.

I think Sandra Bland likely was a victim of racism in this interaction. If that led to her death, I don't really have enough information to form an opinion.

But my question is more... so what do we do going forward? How do cops handle situations that are increasing in intensity? I know there is de-escalation training and that seems like an important step, but there are always going to be people who want to escalate the situation no matter what.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 11:01     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't know how to say this without sounding like a real c*nt, but I'm saying it anyway. When he asked her to put out the cigarette, why was she so pissy and disrespectful? Did I miss part of the video, was he hateful to her first. We all know most cops are arrogant assholes. But we don't have to be belligerent back. Just do what they say and no one gets hurt.


+1


I agree. I actually think he seems pretty decent toward her, up until the point where she gets pissy and doesn't comply. He is quite friendly and courteous to the previous person he had pulled over as well. He didn't ask her to get out of the car over the traffic infraction, it was because she started in with the attitude and noncompliance. Not at all saying she deserved to die, who knows what happened once she got to the jail. But as far as what transpired at the traffic stop -- it all could have been avoided if she had put out her cigarette when asked (not an unreasonable request in my opinion).
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 10:58     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm an AA woman and I've been pulled over by the police a fair number of times throughout my life for speeding (maybe 4-5). 1/2 of those times I've gotten a ticket. In my interaction with the police in a traffic stop, I dont understand the mentality of anyone who escalates the situation by flat out not doing what the policeman asks you to do. In that moment he's got a gun and and I've got....my bad-ass attitude?


Black woman here. While I agree with you, DAMN it's hard not to be pissed sometimes. I, admittedly, have a big problem with that sort of authority. I usually don't say much back but they can clearly tell from my demeanor that I'm pissed.


There are two different things here. First, would it have been wiser for Sandra Bland to have been compliant and subdued and not acted annoyed and put out her cigarette when the cop asked her to? Obviously, yes because then maybe she wouldn't have ended up dead! (MAYBE. Of course many black Americans in recent times have been murdered by the police with less "provocation" than this.)

Separately, was she morally and legally justified in acting annoyed, refusing to put the cigarette out, asking why she was being asked to get out of the car and then arrested? YES!

On the other hand, was the cop justified in ANYTHING he did starting with asking her to put her cigarette out? NO! He had no right to ask her to do that. No reason to tell her to get out of the car. No legal reason to arrest her. Absolutely no reason to become physical with her, threaten to "light her up," hurt her while handcuffing her, tell her it was "good" she had epilepsy (!), and, it seems quite likely, ultimately participate in killing her.

This is the same reason many black parents tell their children to act hyper-respectful and subservient towards cops so they don't get killed. That is good advice given the reality of the world we live in and the apparently horrible state of police training and racism. But it SHOULD NOT be necessary. The police should not be arresting or beating or killing people for talking back or acting annoyed or asking valid questions. That this is even a point that needs to be argued is amazing!

Btw i am white and have never experienced anything like this video. It is so far out of my experience with the police I can't even say. I am almost never pulled over, have gotten a ticket only once even though I have deserved it many more times, and have NEVER been asked to leave my car. The foreignness of it is what makes me feel like, well it also seems crazy that the police would murder this woman in her jail cell, but given how the cop acted in the video, I have to think it's possible.

I can't even imagine the pain that Sandra's family and friends are experiencing.

Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 10:53     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I'm an AA woman and I've been pulled over by the police a fair number of times throughout my life for speeding (maybe 4-5). 1/2 of those times I've gotten a ticket. In my interaction with the police in a traffic stop, I dont understand the mentality of anyone who escalates the situation by flat out not doing what the policeman asks you to do. In that moment he's got a gun and and I've got....my bad-ass attitude?


Black woman here. While I agree with you, DAMN it's hard not to be pissed sometimes. I, admittedly, have a big problem with that sort of authority. I usually don't say much back but they can clearly tell from my demeanor that I'm pissed.


White woman and I hate submitting to them as well. Only once was I pissy with the officer, because I knew for 100% sure I'd not done anything wrong. Also, I was used to passing the creepo every evening on my way home from work, and I knew he knew me. Other than that time though, I knew I'd probably done something to warrant being stopped, and I figured if I played along there was at least a chance I'd get away with a warning. I can't stand the ones that strut up with their hand on their holster, and frankly, I want to spit on the real jerks. But, like pp said, they have the gun and the law.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 10:45     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
Anonymous wrote:I'm an AA woman and I've been pulled over by the police a fair number of times throughout my life for speeding (maybe 4-5). 1/2 of those times I've gotten a ticket. In my interaction with the police in a traffic stop, I dont understand the mentality of anyone who escalates the situation by flat out not doing what the policeman asks you to do. In that moment he's got a gun and and I've got....my bad-ass attitude?


Black woman here. While I agree with you, DAMN it's hard not to be pissed sometimes. I, admittedly, have a big problem with that sort of authority. I usually don't say much back but they can clearly tell from my demeanor that I'm pissed.
Anonymous
Post 07/22/2015 10:43     Subject: Woman moves from Illinois to Texas and ends up dead in jail cell
I'm an AA woman and I've been pulled over by the police a fair number of times throughout my life for speeding (maybe 4-5). 1/2 of those times I've gotten a ticket. In my interaction with the police in a traffic stop, I dont understand the mentality of anyone who escalates the situation by flat out not doing what the policeman asks you to do. In that moment he's got a gun and and I've got....my bad-ass attitude?