Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
We're not talking about paint color, we're talking about being able to make life decisions such as work and family status. American women no longer have to be economically dependent on their parents or their husbands, thank God. Why wouldn't you want to be able to choose a career that you find rewarding and satisfying?

There are probably still people who don't think women should be able to make such choices, but I think they're probably in the minority. And I certainly don't think the option to make such choices is a problem - it's a good thing. I think what causes more problems is the slightly different belief that women *should* choose a job instead of running the home and raising the children -- that, by not entering or remaining in the workforce, they are somehow lesser women.

And, for what it's worth, men should be able to choose the same thing. But it's not as realistic an option for men because not as many women are willing to be the sole provider with the dad staying at home as women are willing to be the sole provider with the mom staying at home. Stay at home dads are generally held in lesser regard than stay at home moms.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Families were stressed back when women followed traditional gender roles, just in a different way. The truth is that there are no good options. Families are stressful. When women played traditional gender roles, they were stressed all the time because they were treated very badly by the majority of husbands (of course, maybe 25% of the husbands were good, but 75% treated their wives and children someplace between their dog and their car). When women try to have some power in the relationship, by bringing in money and some independence, they have some self respect, but end up working 24/7. I think it is an impossible problem, and we just have to accept that families will always make at least 50% of the people miserable.

There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

True, but we live in our society, so we have to deal with its rules. They are there, whether we like it or not. And face it: money gives you freedom, and freedom means choice, which can often help with happiness.

The same holds true with the qualities we encourage our boys to embrace. Being strong, fast, loud, and aggressive gives men more choices - choices in women, choices in money making opportunities - even while those qualities can cause problems for society generally.

This is where your logic fails. I encourage my girl AND my boy to be strong, fast and assertive when appropriate, not aggressive. Loud and aggressive are not desirable habits, not in a child, not in a teenager, not in a partner, and not in the workplace. Unless you are a WWE wrestler, of course.

You're picking at straws at this point. Take out the aggressive noun and everything else the PP says holds true. Being strong fast and assertive helps boys in both their social mating lives and careers. So suddenly admonishing boys to "tone it down" won't work, there is no incentive. Being strong fast and assertive similarly help girls in their careers. I highly doubt you have a son.

Why on earth would you doubt that? It's not nitpicky to say that you are dead wrong about "loud and aggressive" behavior being a desirable trait in anyone. In fact, boys are being medicated in record numbers in order to keep them from being loud and aggressive.

I do have a son who is sometimes loud, rarely aggressive, and sweet as can be with a very, very big heart. He is being raised by two working parents, including a very loving and nurturing father. I have zero concerns about his future, either in dating or in finding a job. Our family situation, with its shared roles and responsibilities, is completely ordinary for this area.

Anonymous wrote:I'm still mulling over PP's advocating medicating loudness and aggressiveness out of boys as though it is an okay thing to do. Feel sorry for her son.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't really care about feminism. I care about what makes me happy. I love taking care of my DH and my family. My DH is the head of our household and I'm not ashamed to say it. he's a great provider and a wonderful partner in life and raising out children you won't see me complaining about him on these boards. I let him be a man and he let's me be a woman. We are different on the way we were born. Our brains were wired differently and those difference compliment each other and make us better together.

And yes. I work. I love my job, but I also put my family first and it doesn't get in the way of my #1 priority, my kids and husband.

You might not feel that "head of the household" crap if you were more educated, or if he beat you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

Power comes from earning money. Just ask my deceased mother, who, although she did not have time stress like I do, was miserable because her husband had the ultimate decisionmaking power in the house. No thanks.

And happiness comes from power?

Happiness comes from having choices- whether to clean your own house or outsource, whether to leave your husband - and those choices come from having the power to support yourself financially.

The connection between happiness and choices doesn't seem to be as strong as you are suggesting:
http://blog.ted.com/does-having-choice-make-us-happy-6-studies-that-suggest-it-doesnt-always/

Also, as Biggie Smalls observed, "Mo' Money, Mo' Problems."

Anonymous wrote:
We're not talking about paint color, we're talking about being able to make life decisions such as work and family status. American women no longer have to be economically dependent on their parents or their husbands, thank God. Why wouldn't you want to be able to choose a career that you find rewarding and satisfying?

Anonymous wrote:I don't really care about feminism. I care about what makes me happy. I love taking care of my DH and my family. My DH is the head of our household and I'm not ashamed to say it. he's a great provider and a wonderful partner in life and raising out children you won't see me complaining about him on these boards. I let him be a man and he let's me be a woman. We are different on the way we were born. Our brains were wired differently and those difference compliment each other and make us better together.

And yes. I work. I love my job, but I also put my family first and it doesn't get in the way of my #1 priority, my kids and husband.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Families were stressed back when women followed traditional gender roles, just in a different way. The truth is that there are no good options. Families are stressful. When women played traditional gender roles, they were stressed all the time because they were treated very badly by the majority of husbands (of course, maybe 25% of the husbands were good, but 75% treated their wives and children someplace between their dog and their car). When women try to have some power in the relationship, by bringing in money and some independence, they have some self respect, but end up working 24/7. I think it is an impossible problem, and we just have to accept that families will always make at least 50% of the people miserable.

There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

True, but we live in our society, so we have to deal with its rules. They are there, whether we like it or not. And face it: money gives you freedom, and freedom means choice, which can often help with happiness.

So says the complacent member of the bourgeoisie. Revolution, resistance are not beyond us.

Go ahead and revolt and resist. I'll use my money to send my kids to any college they want, debt free, and to retire early. Carry on with your fight as I laugh all the way to the bank.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

Power comes from earning money. Just ask my deceased mother, who, although she did not have time stress like I do, was miserable because her husband had the ultimate decisionmaking power in the house. No thanks.

And happiness comes from power?

Happiness comes from having choices- whether to clean your own house or outsource, whether to leave your husband - and those choices come from having the power to support yourself financially.

The connection between happiness and choices doesn't seem to be as strong as you are suggesting:
http://blog.ted.com/does-having-choice-make-us-happy-6-studies-that-suggest-it-doesnt-always/

Also, as Biggie Smalls observed, "Mo' Money, Mo' Problems."

Anonymous wrote:I don't really care about feminism. I care about what makes me happy. I love taking care of my DH and my family. My DH is the head of our household and I'm not ashamed to say it. he's a great provider and a wonderful partner in life and raising out children you won't see me complaining about him on these boards. I let him be a man and he let's me be a woman. We are different on the way we were born. Our brains were wired differently and those difference compliment each other and make us better together.

And yes. I work. I love my job, but I also put my family first and it doesn't get in the way of my #1 priority, my kids and husband.

Anonymous wrote:After reading this thread (and these boards) I don't think any guy should get married - ever.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
There's an interesting premise buried in your paragraph. I totally get the problem with the power disparity -- even if I'm skeptical of your statistics. (Wouldn't really matter if it was only, say, 20% of husbands abusing the power structure). But the idea that self-respect should be tied to bringing in money, rather than other life activities, is troublesome. Making money is often a shallow endeavor, unrewarding in the long term. It's necessary but, in my opinion, overvalued in our society. Our culture's narrow focus on earning and consumption makes our lives shallow and sad.

Power comes from earning money. Just ask my deceased mother, who, although she did not have time stress like I do, was miserable because her husband had the ultimate decisionmaking power in the house. No thanks.

And happiness comes from power?

Happiness comes from having choices- whether to clean your own house or outsource, whether to leave your husband - and those choices come from having the power to support yourself financially.