Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 13:15     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
I just want more middle class kids. That's it. The other things come along with that: less classroom disruption; more kids at the same educational preparedness level; stronger PTA; less racial and SES tension directed at your kid.

I went to a gifted school for middle school. The facility was the dumpiest, oldest school in our town. The gym was from the 1940s and not regulation sizes. The library was just a few bookshelves in an old classroom. And there were as many portables as there were regular classrooms. The gym change rooms were an old classroom cut in half - half for girls, half for boys. Obviously back then we didn't have any electronic teaching tools. Probably a couple old tvs with vcrs, and we spent a lot of time watching film reels. I don't think there was a PTA. There was a soccer field but no other outdoor resources. No cafeteria, no vending machines. We all brown bagged every day and they pulled out loose benches in the gym for us to eat. We had smart kids who came from all over town, so the SES was fairly diverse (though, it being an upper middle class suburb, no one was "poor" like we see in DC). We had good teachers because it was a plum job - teaching kids who love learning. The school was amazing and had great results. Obviously an extreme example, but the point is that the only input was decent students. Everything else is unnecessary.


Amen- and that's the whole story! Glad others have some sense in this city.
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 13:07     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:No one is stating what exactly these Petworth schools are missing that would make them "great." Everyone is working under the presumption that these schools are lacking things that would make them great, but no one seems to know what that is. Middle-class children? Does that mean you want the low-income children displaced to other schools?

And the post about how low income family families feel embarrassed or uncomfortable is condescending and ignorant.


I'm the PP who wrote about my frustration with my long time in DC watching these issues play out. I don't necessarily agree with a few of the last posts, or at least think they are not articulated very well.

You said that no one is stating exactly what is missing from these schools. We are - we said they need the kids of high SES families. Every study in the world knows that that is the biggest correlation with school outcome (and improves the scores of the low SES kids to boot). You ask whether we want low-income children displaced. No - in fact, if you read my post, you'll see i mentioned that all of these crappy performing schools are under enrolled. Garrison (my IB school) was about to be closed. I suspect you could double the size of the school, fill it entirely with gentrifying richer families, and presto, the school now has the balance shifted to be a better performing school and continue to attract high SES families going forward.

It's not a perfect or pretty discussion. But there seems to be only two options: status quo; or let the marginally annoying and marginally offensive gentrifiers have their way and the school possibly improves. I'd rather the second.


Ok, so parents want more middle class kids. That still doesn't change the fact that this thread presumes that these schools are lacking things that middle class kids need/want. What are those things (aside from higher test scores)?


I just want more middle class kids. That's it. The other things come along with that: less classroom disruption; more kids at the same educational preparedness level; stronger PTA; less racial and SES tension directed at your kid.

I went to a gifted school for middle school. The facility was the dumpiest, oldest school in our town. The gym was from the 1940s and not regulation sizes. The library was just a few bookshelves in an old classroom. And there were as many portables as there were regular classrooms. The gym change rooms were an old classroom cut in half - half for girls, half for boys. Obviously back then we didn't have any electronic teaching tools. Probably a couple old tvs with vcrs, and we spent a lot of time watching film reels. I don't think there was a PTA. There was a soccer field but no other outdoor resources. No cafeteria, no vending machines. We all brown bagged every day and they pulled out loose benches in the gym for us to eat. We had smart kids who came from all over town, so the SES was fairly diverse (though, it being an upper middle class suburb, no one was "poor" like we see in DC). We had good teachers because it was a plum job - teaching kids who love learning. The school was amazing and had great results. Obviously an extreme example, but the point is that the only input was decent students. Everything else is unnecessary.
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 12:55     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:No one is stating what exactly these Petworth schools are missing that would make them "great." Everyone is working under the presumption that these schools are lacking things that would make them great, but no one seems to know what that is. Middle-class children? Does that mean you want the low-income children displaced to other schools?

And the post about how low income family families feel embarrassed or uncomfortable is condescending and ignorant.


I'm the PP who wrote about my frustration with my long time in DC watching these issues play out. I don't necessarily agree with a few of the last posts, or at least think they are not articulated very well.

You said that no one is stating exactly what is missing from these schools. We are - we said they need the kids of high SES families. Every study in the world knows that that is the biggest correlation with school outcome (and improves the scores of the low SES kids to boot). You ask whether we want low-income children displaced. No - in fact, if you read my post, you'll see i mentioned that all of these crappy performing schools are under enrolled. Garrison (my IB school) was about to be closed. I suspect you could double the size of the school, fill it entirely with gentrifying richer families, and presto, the school now has the balance shifted to be a better performing school and continue to attract high SES families going forward.

It's not a perfect or pretty discussion. But there seems to be only two options: status quo; or let the marginally annoying and marginally offensive gentrifiers have their way and the school possibly improves. I'd rather the second.


Ok, so parents want more middle class kids. That still doesn't change the fact that this thread presumes that these schools are lacking things that middle class kids need/want. What are those things (aside from higher test scores)?
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 12:47     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Anonymous wrote:OP here. So I have learned alot from this discussion and appreciate everyone's input.

So my final word. Can we maybe have a meet up at a local bar- maybe Chez Billy or Petworth Citizen- and get a group of young parents together who are inbound to say Barnard or Powell. And make a pact to support those schools and later send our kids there? Can we be the interested higher SES parents that transform a school?

DH is actively looking at houses in Bethesda- but I want to stay in the city!


I'm not in Petworth, but i'd nonetheless advise you to not approach it this way. This site has a pretty homogenous pool of readers, and it would come off as offensive if you'd already grouped up before even starting school. I'd suggest waiting until PK starts and then reaching out through the school or class email listserv. You'll probably only get responses from the same group of people who would respond on this site, but it's not nearly as divisive.
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 12:46     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:No one is stating what exactly these Petworth schools are missing that would make them "great." Everyone is working under the presumption that these schools are lacking things that would make them great, but no one seems to know what that is. Middle-class children? Does that mean you want the low-income children displaced to other schools?

And the post about how low income family families feel embarrassed or uncomfortable is condescending and ignorant.


I'm the PP who wrote about my frustration with my long time in DC watching these issues play out. I don't necessarily agree with a few of the last posts, or at least think they are not articulated very well.

You said that no one is stating exactly what is missing from these schools. We are - we said they need the kids of high SES families. Every study in the world knows that that is the biggest correlation with school outcome (and improves the scores of the low SES kids to boot). You ask whether we want low-income children displaced. No - in fact, if you read my post, you'll see i mentioned that all of these crappy performing schools are under enrolled. Garrison (my IB school) was about to be closed. I suspect you could double the size of the school, fill it entirely with gentrifying richer families, and presto, the school now has the balance shifted to be a better performing school and continue to attract high SES families going forward.

It's not a perfect or pretty discussion. But there seems to be only two options: status quo; or let the marginally annoying and marginally offensive gentrifiers have their way and the school possibly improves. I'd rather the second.



Marginally annoying Gentrifier here!! I know what I prefer. And I saw about 20 families walking out in the snow this morning that I'm sure feel the same way. I think the change is coming!
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 12:44     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Anonymous wrote:No one is stating what exactly these Petworth schools are missing that would make them "great." Everyone is working under the presumption that these schools are lacking things that would make them great, but no one seems to know what that is. Middle-class children? Does that mean you want the low-income children displaced to other schools?

And the post about how low income family families feel embarrassed or uncomfortable is condescending and ignorant.



No it is not condescending or ignorant. Its probably true. Its just difficult to hear- it is really hard to accept when someone you consider from another group comes into your world and you feel like they are telling you what to do.

Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 12:43     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Anonymous wrote:No one is stating what exactly these Petworth schools are missing that would make them "great." Everyone is working under the presumption that these schools are lacking things that would make them great, but no one seems to know what that is. Middle-class children? Does that mean you want the low-income children displaced to other schools?

And the post about how low income family families feel embarrassed or uncomfortable is condescending and ignorant.


I'm the PP who wrote about my frustration with my long time in DC watching these issues play out. I don't necessarily agree with a few of the last posts, or at least think they are not articulated very well.

You said that no one is stating exactly what is missing from these schools. We are - we said they need the kids of high SES families. Every study in the world knows that that is the biggest correlation with school outcome (and improves the scores of the low SES kids to boot). You ask whether we want low-income children displaced. No - in fact, if you read my post, you'll see i mentioned that all of these crappy performing schools are under enrolled. Garrison (my IB school) was about to be closed. I suspect you could double the size of the school, fill it entirely with gentrifying richer families, and presto, the school now has the balance shifted to be a better performing school and continue to attract high SES families going forward.

It's not a perfect or pretty discussion. But there seems to be only two options: status quo; or let the marginally annoying and marginally offensive gentrifiers have their way and the school possibly improves. I'd rather the second.
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 12:31     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
No one is stating what exactly these Petworth schools are missing that would make them "great." Everyone is working under the presumption that these schools are lacking things that would make them great, but no one seems to know what that is. Middle-class children? Does that mean you want the low-income children displaced to other schools?

And the post about how low income family families feel embarrassed or uncomfortable is condescending and ignorant.
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 12:29     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
OP here. So I have learned alot from this discussion and appreciate everyone's input.

So my final word. Can we maybe have a meet up at a local bar- maybe Chez Billy or Petworth Citizen- and get a group of young parents together who are inbound to say Barnard or Powell. And make a pact to support those schools and later send our kids there? Can we be the interested higher SES parents that transform a school?

DH is actively looking at houses in Bethesda- but I want to stay in the city!
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 12:05     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Good to see this thread returning to rationality with those last few posts...
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 11:39     Subject: Re:Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Long time close-in DC resident here who has been reading about these debates for a LONG time. My kid will be entering the system in the fall.

I have been frustrated for my 16 years here that people who move to gentrifying neighborhoods are basically not allowed to want something better. You're not even allowed to voice your desire for something better. That, because these neighborhood schools are crappy, and that crappiness is the direct result of years of a bigger racist system that is set up against the long time residents, the newcomers have to just shut up and take it, or move away. And that somehow you are a righteous entitled brat if you ask about how to improve things. The crazy thing is that most of these crappy schools are under-enrolled, so it's not like you're robbing the original residents of their right to their school. There's this big issue that the gentrifying parents have to sit back and be observers, lest they interfere in the parents who are already there trying to fix things. But the reality is that nothing is going to fix until more rich kids (regardless of race) enroll in these schools. And more rich kids aren't going to come until lots of rich kids are already there. Which is only going to happen by letting the gentrifying parents get really vocal and involved. By making the gentrifying parents shut up and take a back seat, you effectively resign the school to staying mostly poor and therefore never improving.

Sorry for the rant. In more seriousness, my impression is that spending money doesn't do anything. All the PTA activities, fundraisers, volunteer events, park cleans etc are nothing more than a mechanism/signal for other high SES parents to connect with each other and to send a signal to each other and other potential parents that the school may be on the up and up -- so long as the momentum stays in place. But the activities themselves (better libraries, better park etc) have no bearing on the quality and educational outcomes. Nothing affects that other than the quality of the kids coming in.



I cannot agree with this post more- this is exactly how I feel. Nothing good ever happens without enthusiasm and energy. There is no secret to getting good schools- it requires hard work and parents demanding high standards. This is not a race thing in any way. If any parents sit back and don't try and improve their schools - Gentrifers or otherwise - then nothing is going to happen.

So we have this "awkward" history where poor schools exist because of the large socioeconomic / racial environment. But guess what - this larger issue is only the truth in the big picture. We can do alot in the a particular situation- you don't often get a good school my changing the larger picture- you get it one child, parent, teacher at a time. If every parent was demanding higher standards for their schools they would get better. If Gentrifers are the ones who lead or contribute to this then that is great. If they don't get involved out of feelings of liberal guilt then everyone is worse off.


Yes, this is the crux of the problem.

I think there is some embarrassment on the part of the low income families. The realization that you don't even know something was wrong with the school or that there is in fact a better way to do something and have a bunch of people come in and tell you and then you realize that yes, the way we do things and the school itself is pretty bad.

I also think it forces lower income families into an uncomfortable situation and that is realizing that they way they spend their money and time directly effect their kids and their kids future.
It's easy to say you are going to do better and want better for your kids but it's a lot harder to make those sacrifices and do things like spend what little income is available and use it for an enrichment or for school supplies or what little time is available and instead of partying with friends and dropping kids of with friends, staying at home and reading or playing with their kids.

I have never heard any Gentrifier request that I thought sounded absurd. Most requests are for the basics that suburban schools with higher income families have. Nothing far flung, nothing crazy.

The message needs to go from the Principal of the school that the requests being made are normal, in line with what kids need to succeed, etc and above all the message needs to be "yes, you do in fact need some "rich white people" coming in and telling you that needs to be done to make the school better because you have not been able to figure it out or do it on your own"
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 11:27     Subject: Re:Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
[quote=Anonymous]Nothing affects that other than the quality of the kids coming in. [/quote]

+1
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 11:23     Subject: Re:Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Anonymous wrote:Long time close-in DC resident here who has been reading about these debates for a LONG time. My kid will be entering the system in the fall.

I have been frustrated for my 16 years here that people who move to gentrifying neighborhoods are basically not allowed to want something better. You're not even allowed to voice your desire for something better. That, because these neighborhood schools are crappy, and that crappiness is the direct result of years of a bigger racist system that is set up against the long time residents, the newcomers have to just shut up and take it, or move away. And that somehow you are a righteous entitled brat if you ask about how to improve things. The crazy thing is that most of these crappy schools are under-enrolled, so it's not like you're robbing the original residents of their right to their school. There's this big issue that the gentrifying parents have to sit back and be observers, lest they interfere in the parents who are already there trying to fix things. But the reality is that nothing is going to fix until more rich kids (regardless of race) enroll in these schools. And more rich kids aren't going to come until lots of rich kids are already there. Which is only going to happen by letting the gentrifying parents get really vocal and involved. By making the gentrifying parents shut up and take a back seat, you effectively resign the school to staying mostly poor and therefore never improving.

Sorry for the rant. In more seriousness, my impression is that spending money doesn't do anything. All the PTA activities, fundraisers, volunteer events, park cleans etc are nothing more than a mechanism/signal for other high SES parents to connect with each other and to send a signal to each other and other potential parents that the school may be on the up and up -- so long as the momentum stays in place. But the activities themselves (better libraries, better park etc) have no bearing on the quality and educational outcomes. Nothing affects that other than the quality of the kids coming in.



I cannot agree with this post more- this is exactly how I feel. Nothing good ever happens without enthusiasm and energy. There is no secret to getting good schools- it requires hard work and parents demanding high standards. This is not a race thing in any way. If any parents sit back and don't try and improve their schools - Gentrifers or otherwise - then nothing is going to happen.

So we have this "awkward" history where poor schools exist because of the large socioeconomic / racial environment. But guess what - this larger issue is only the truth in the big picture. We can do alot in the a particular situation- you don't often get a good school my changing the larger picture- you get it one child, parent, teacher at a time. If every parent was demanding higher standards for their schools they would get better. If Gentrifers are the ones who lead or contribute to this then that is great. If they don't get involved out of feelings of liberal guilt then everyone is worse off.
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 11:18     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I agree, what is so "urban" about Petworth? Why are you putting down Arlington and Bethesda? You realize those are pretty diverse communities overall. There are lots of apartments and bike share is available.

1) Proximity to downtown (though parts of Arlington are tied here - but those parts are exorbitantly expensive)
2) It's still shooty / stabby
3) It's ethnically diverse


This is what I always find amusing -- looking objectively at an aerial view map, and considering all public transit options, Petworth is no more convenient to the commercial/federal part of DC (aka, "downtown") than many communities in the WoTP Upper Caucasia," might as well be a suburb" Washington.

Don't get me wrong, I like Petworth as much as I like the next all-rowhouse, between the wars DC neighborhood. But it's no more proximate to the White House than Cleveland Park or Tenleytown
Anonymous
Post 02/17/2015 10:59     Subject: Can Gentrifers Use Their Skills and Resources to "Make" a Great School?
Anonymous wrote:I agree, what is so "urban" about Petworth? Why are you putting down Arlington and Bethesda? You realize those are pretty diverse communities overall. There are lots of apartments and bike share is available.

1) Proximity to downtown (though parts of Arlington are tied here - but those parts are exorbitantly expensive)
2) It's still shooty / stabby
3) It's ethnically diverse