Anonymous wrote:
Stereotypes are by definition about most people. I really don't think we live in a culture where people are expected to conform to stereotypes anymore.

That is because you conform to them. Ask somebody who doesn't conform to them what their opinion is.

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You don't have to point out to me that some girls are born interested in typically boy things, because I was a girl just like that. But I can assure you that I did not "make" my boys into boys -- they were born that way.

Yes, your boys were born boys. But no, your boys were not born liking cement trucks. That's the influence of society -- if only because cement trucks are a product of society.

ha ha! Cement trucks are a product of boys who grew up to be men who made cement trucks.

Yes, certainly, there was a very strong selection pressure in favor for women who liked frilly pink ballgowns and men who liked cement trucks, out there on the savannah 100,000 years ago, .

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Anonymous wrote:I don't feel that way at all, about gays or girls. i am always defending "princess culture" and pink and tiaras becuase these "girlie girls" are always vilified on these boards. leave them alone. Let people be themselves. Go ahead and drop stereotypes -- who cares? The results are the same -- you will find that most boys fall NEAR one end of the spectrum, a few fall on the very end, some are in the middle, a few are on the other side and fewer still are on the far other side. Same with girls. It takes all kinds to make the world go round -- and that includes the majority of people who have gender-typical behavior. Let people be. It is no slight against you to let others exist as they are (even "all boy" boys).

This is the "stereotypes work for most people, so let's just keep them" argument.

If dropping stereotypes wouldn't change anything, then people wouldn't fight so hard against dropping them.

(And I don't like the vilification of stereotypically feminine things either.)

Stereotypes are by definition about most people. I really don't think we live in a culture where people are expected to conform to stereotypes anymore.

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Anonymous wrote:
I have boys and I will be the first to say my 2 are 'all boy'. They are athletic, rough and tumble, lots of physical energy, and hear selectively. These are the most universally accepted traits of males.

I'm clearly distinguishing them from some boys that have different demeanors that are not as universally characterized. More quiet, less physical energy, not into the outdoors. There is nothing wrong with these other boys, they just don't fit the stereotypical mold.

And that's just it, it's a widely accepted stereotype so when someone says "all boy" you know what they are talking about.

No need to get so defensive.

So are boys who are not athletic not "all boy"? Do you not see how obnoxious and offensive that is? Or all you be "all girl" by being passive aggressive?

Are you purposely being obtuse? (not pp) Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing. Denying that doesn't make it less true. It doesn't mean that boys who aren't athletic aren't boys, that girls who are athletic are boys or aren't girls, etc. GOOD LORD PEOPLE.

It's a self-fulfilling stereotype. THAT is the problem!!!!! By continuing to use stupid phrases like that and continuing to promote that stereotype, we create that reality. Let's drop the stereotype. There's nothing intrinsic about being a girl that makes her less interested in movement, in nature, in running around a playground.

+1. Exactly what I thought. Let's stop parroting these dumb sayings that perpetuate these outdated stereotypes. "Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing" is like saying "being quiet and obedient is a stereotypically girlish thing."

To the last 2 pp.'s: Okay, let's drop the stereotype and all boys and girls can be stereotyped as unisex. Let's dress them all in grey and give them all unisex bob cuts, let's name some boys Larla and some girls Johnny to keep it fair, and dress them alike, how about a shirt and kilt/skirt type outfit so there is no gender preference?


Seriously, no one is saying your quiet, book loving boy is not a boy and no one is saying your soccer champ Larla isn't athletic. Yes, there are intrinsically different things that make up a boy and a girl. To deny that is ludicrous. I was a nature loving, outdoorsy girl that loved running and climbing trees. But I am a female and even though I could hang with the boys, I know am intrinsically different from them. This is NOT a bad thing!

But, yes, they are. They are saying he's not "all boy." That's why the phrase is ridiculous.

Oh my goodness, yes dear, your male child is a boy too. No need to get your feathers all ruffled. Again, he doesn't fit the mold. Ask him when he's older (high school/college) if he feels he fits into the stereotypical athletic, jock like male characteristic. He'll say no, then ask if he feels like he's not 100% boy because of it, he'll say no.

Your precious boy's ego will not be bruised for not being labelled "all boy", this is all about YOU.

I don't have sons (I don't have kids), so this actually isn't about me at all.

But I do know men who were made to feel "less than" because they weren't athletic. I also know gay men who had experiences where sayings like that were definitely used in a homophobic context.

I hope you realize that most of us are rolling our eyes at parenting advice (on a parenting forum no less) from a non-parent.

Equivalent to me going to the pets forum and having no dogs or cats or any pets for that matter and have never having had any, but I've seen enough of them and they're owners outside to give advice on the topic and tell the pet owners (and they're not brand new owners) what they're doing right and wrong.

I have two sons that are "all boy". Except when the watch my little pony, frozen, and tinkerbell. Or when they play violin. Then they are only 59% boy. :0
I don't use the term but I understand it and it doesn't offend me. It's NOT meant to imply that if your boy isn't muddy he isn't a real boy. Geez. It's usually said in an "I feel you're pain they can be exhausting!" kind of way.

Anonymous wrote:I don't feel that way at all, about gays or girls. i am always defending "princess culture" and pink and tiaras becuase these "girlie girls" are always vilified on these boards. leave them alone. Let people be themselves. Go ahead and drop stereotypes -- who cares? The results are the same -- you will find that most boys fall NEAR one end of the spectrum, a few fall on the very end, some are in the middle, a few are on the other side and fewer still are on the far other side. Same with girls. It takes all kinds to make the world go round -- and that includes the majority of people who have gender-typical behavior. Let people be. It is no slight against you to let others exist as they are (even "all boy" boys).

This is the "stereotypes work for most people, so let's just keep them" argument.

If dropping stereotypes wouldn't change anything, then people wouldn't fight so hard against dropping them.

(And I don't like the vilification of stereotypically feminine things either.)

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Anonymous wrote:Are the boys playing tackle football during recess at your child's school? They sure aren't at mine (MCPS). But not because of gender norms. Because tackling is one of the long list of things the children are not allowed to do during recess.

No, of course my boys don't go to MCPS.. They go to an all boys school where they are allowed to be boys. Yes, they play tackle fottball.

See, now I am confused. About half of the children in my child's class at my child's MCPS school are boys. They are boys before school, they are boys during school, they are boys after school, they know they are boys, everybody knows they are boys, there's no secret -- there they are, all day long, boys being boys. At what school are boys not allowed to be boys? Girls' schools?

No. They are told to sit down be quiet and act like a girl all day. Many studies show schools are girl oriented. Boys work better in groups and not in lecture/worksheet environments.

When they act like a boy the are told they are loud and rough and ill behaved or ADHD.

At MCPS boys are not allowed to be boys... When they are all boy... The 1/2 boys are fine.

So what happens when they are adults and have to get a job that, wait for it, involves sitting most of the day and behaving and not acting out? Or is that work only suited for women?

Sitting down and being quiet isn't "acting like a girl." And lots of girls have trouble with it, too.

Your post is revealing, though. I'm guessing your kids are unruly, but you justify it with "boys being boys" or "they're all boy!" Ugh.

Normal human development and puberty takes care of that. But a 8 yo boy and a 38 yo man, very different. Maybe more men would stop acting like boys if they were ever allowed to be only when they were one.

But your thinking has led to the feminization of boys. (And of tom boys)

Are you the same PP who insists she didn't make her boys like trucks?

If so, you are suggesting that your boys like normal boy things, and you had no influence.

But people with boys who don't like normal boy things somehow "feminized" them?

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:No one is saying you made your boys into boys. What we are saying is that the "way they are" isn't because they are boys. You could have girls who are just like that. Being "all boy" just means having male sex parts. It doesn't mean all of this other personality stuff that occurs in males and females. Boys who aren't like your boys aren't less boy than yours, so to say that those personality traits make your boys "all boy" is ridiculous and absurd.

How about "typical boy" instead of "all boy"? Is that more accurate?

"Stereotypical boy" is more accurate.

I'm on board with that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You don't have to point out to me that some girls are born interested in typically boy things, because I was a girl just like that. But I can assure you that I did not "make" my boys into boys -- they were born that way.

Yes, your boys were born boys. But no, your boys were not born liking cement trucks. That's the influence of society -- if only because cement trucks are a product of society.

ha ha! Cement trucks are a product of boys who grew up to be men who made cement trucks.

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Anonymous wrote:No one is saying you made your boys into boys. What we are saying is that the "way they are" isn't because they are boys. You could have girls who are just like that. Being "all boy" just means having male sex parts. It doesn't mean all of this other personality stuff that occurs in males and females. Boys who aren't like your boys aren't less boy than yours, so to say that those personality traits make your boys "all boy" is ridiculous and absurd.

How about "typical boy" instead of "all boy"? Is that more accurate?

"Stereotypical boy" is more accurate.

As a mom of two boys and two girls, I'll add my observations: our oldest boys is super high energy, super emotional, loves to be outdoors, and is a bookworm. He also has an incredible appreciation of scents, visual beauty, and sound. Only when he hit first grade did he really start to feel constrained by what was "supposed" to be boy stuff. It's sad to see this.

Second son: very high energy. Loves math. Can't wait to be outdoors. Excellent dancer and has natural musical talent. Loves to play rough and wrestle and is naturally athletic. Doesn't give a rat's ass about sports.

First daughter: energy is as high as or higher than her brothers. Loves any and all sports. Loves music. Climbs on everything and then jumps off of it in daredevil fashion. He started preschool this year, and for the first time I'm starting to hear her tell me she looks pretty and like a princess. She's never been told she looks like a princess by her parents, but that's what the girls are supposed to enjoy at preschool. When the school year started, her favorite thing to do was play in the gym. Just six months of socialization and her "natural" inclinations are changing.

Second daughter: only 19 months, too young to make definitive statements, but showing and early preference for cars, blocks, things that open and close, and soft blankets.

I have two that are, by chromosomal definition, "all boy", and two "all girl". To believe that we don't heavily socialize and push or kids into gender norms is absurd. It happens every time someone tells my daughter she's wearing a pretty shirt or her hair looks nice, or when someone compliments my sons for running fast or building a great sandcastle. Subtle indicators to them of the attributes of which we approve.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Are the boys playing tackle football during recess at your child's school? They sure aren't at mine (MCPS). But not because of gender norms. Because tackling is one of the long list of things the children are not allowed to do during recess.

No, of course my boys don't go to MCPS.. They go to an all boys school where they are allowed to be boys. Yes, they play tackle fottball.

See, now I am confused. About half of the children in my child's class at my child's MCPS school are boys. They are boys before school, they are boys during school, they are boys after school, they know they are boys, everybody knows they are boys, there's no secret -- there they are, all day long, boys being boys. At what school are boys not allowed to be boys? Girls' schools?

No. They are told to sit down be quiet and act like a girl all day. Many studies show schools are girl oriented. Boys work better in groups and not in lecture/worksheet environments.

When they act like a boy the are told they are loud and rough and ill behaved or ADHD.

At MCPS boys are not allowed to be boys... When they are all boy... The 1/2 boys are fine.

So what happens when they are adults and have to get a job that, wait for it, involves sitting most of the day and behaving and not acting out? Or is that work only suited for women?

Sitting down and being quiet isn't "acting like a girl." And lots of girls have trouble with it, too.

Your post is revealing, though. I'm guessing your kids are unruly, but you justify it with "boys being boys" or "they're all boy!" Ugh.

Normal human development and puberty takes care of that. But a 8 yo boy and a 38 yo man, very different. Maybe more men would stop acting like boys if they were ever allowed to be only when they were one.

But your thinking has led to the feminization of boys. (And of tom boys)

Wow. And what is that exactly? What is your definition of a "feminized boy"? This ought to be good.

Anonymous wrote:

You don't have to point out to me that some girls are born interested in typically boy things, because I was a girl just like that. But I can assure you that I did not "make" my boys into boys -- they were born that way.

Yes, your boys were born boys. But no, your boys were not born liking cement trucks. That's the influence of society -- if only because cement trucks are a product of society.

Seems like there are parallel arguments going on here -- one about boy behavior and whether it exists outside of societal pressure, and one about the whether the phrase "all boy" is denigrating to boys who do not exhibit stereotypical boy behavior.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:
I have boys and I will be the first to say my 2 are 'all boy'. They are athletic, rough and tumble, lots of physical energy, and hear selectively. These are the most universally accepted traits of males.

I'm clearly distinguishing them from some boys that have different demeanors that are not as universally characterized. More quiet, less physical energy, not into the outdoors. There is nothing wrong with these other boys, they just don't fit the stereotypical mold.

And that's just it, it's a widely accepted stereotype so when someone says "all boy" you know what they are talking about.

No need to get so defensive.

So are boys who are not athletic not "all boy"? Do you not see how obnoxious and offensive that is? Or all you be "all girl" by being passive aggressive?

Are you purposely being obtuse? (not pp) Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing. Denying that doesn't make it less true. It doesn't mean that boys who aren't athletic aren't boys, that girls who are athletic are boys or aren't girls, etc. GOOD LORD PEOPLE.

It's a self-fulfilling stereotype. THAT is the problem!!!!! By continuing to use stupid phrases like that and continuing to promote that stereotype, we create that reality. Let's drop the stereotype. There's nothing intrinsic about being a girl that makes her less interested in movement, in nature, in running around a playground.

+1. Exactly what I thought. Let's stop parroting these dumb sayings that perpetuate these outdated stereotypes. "Being athletic is a stereotypically boyish thing" is like saying "being quiet and obedient is a stereotypically girlish thing."

To the last 2 pp.'s: Okay, let's drop the stereotype and all boys and girls can be stereotyped as unisex. Let's dress them all in grey and give them all unisex bob cuts, let's name some boys Larla and some girls Johnny to keep it fair, and dress them alike, how about a shirt and kilt/skirt type outfit so there is no gender preference?


Seriously, no one is saying your quiet, book loving boy is not a boy and no one is saying your soccer champ Larla isn't athletic. Yes, there are intrinsically different things that make up a boy and a girl. To deny that is ludicrous. I was a nature loving, outdoorsy girl that loved running and climbing trees. But I am a female and even though I could hang with the boys, I know am intrinsically different from them. This is NOT a bad thing!

But, yes, they are. They are saying he's not "all boy." That's why the phrase is ridiculous.

Oh my goodness, yes dear, your male child is a boy too. No need to get your feathers all ruffled. Again, he doesn't fit the mold. Ask him when he's older (high school/college) if he feels he fits into the stereotypical athletic, jock like male characteristic. He'll say no, then ask if he feels like he's not 100% boy because of it, he'll say no.

Your precious boy's ego will not be bruised for not being labelled "all boy", this is all about YOU.

I don't have sons (I don't have kids), so this actually isn't about me at all.

But I do know men who were made to feel "less than" because they weren't athletic. I also know gay men who had experiences where sayings like that were definitely used in a homophobic context.