Anonymous
Post 04/16/2014 19:36     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote: NP here. We are currently doing college tours, and I was interested in the response of DH, a successful and pragmatic businessman with a background in management consulting. To my surprise,he was totally turned off by the prestigious university where most of the undergrad tour guides introduced themselves as business majors. In his view, no one needs four years of business classes for an entry level business job. As he put it, if you don't spend your college years learning "why Beethoven matters," you likely will never know, and you and society as a whole will be poorer as a result. He described a med school for which he consults where the Dean told him he wants students with liberal arts backgrounds because they are more complete individuals and connect with others well. DH was most impressed with the SLAC we visited. According to their published lists of what recent grads have done, plenty have gotten jobs in the financial sector. To be sure, most went for grad degrees eventually. We will be happy if our DCs go that route, but admittedly it is very expensive and makes more sense if the SLAC is well regarded.


What kind of kid learns "why Beethoven matters" and truly cares? I will tell you. It is likely a kid that taught themselves well before college. College kids are college kids regardless of the university. Be realistic, when you go to a high ranking SLAC or private university you are just paying for access to the alumni network. The education is marginally better at best than any state school. The kids are still out drinking and acting like morons at Harvard, with a touch of class though I am sure. The fact is companies recruit from select schools because of alumni connections and the schools have basically "pre-screened" candidates through the school application process. The selectivity of the schools means less weeding out for the recruiters when compared to a more diverse student body at a larger institution.
Anonymous
Post 04/16/2014 17:33     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:

Not the PP, but no, philosophy doesn't "teach you how to think". There is no such thing. Philosophy teaches you about certain kinds of issues or problems (what it means to know, how we know what exists etc), and what various thoughtful people thought about these (I know because I was a philosophy major). But it's not something you can use in the workplace. There exists a 'general thinking skill' but that' is intelligence and it can not be taught - either you have it or you don't. Whatever can be taught does not transfer to other areas.
Wow, where did you study philosophy? Because part of a good philosophical education is to be able to frame an argument and support it with evidence. This is something that a good professor makes central to his/her course. You don't just memorize what various thoughtful people said. You're supposed to be able to work with the arguments yourself and make a convincing case for them and learn to articulate them effectively. These are important skills in the workplace. If you didn't get that in your philosophy education, you were robbed.
Anonymous
Post 04/16/2014 17:28     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Op, I am with the few people that agree with you.
If the reason not taking STEM majors was to avoid Calculus, how about Accounting? It is 4 year BS, practical if pass CPA.

I have been brain washing my DD since.. well.. since she was born. She is in 6th grade now and is screening which type of doctor she wants to be (currently narrowed down to radiologist and anaesthetist). She will start internship as soon as she enters high school. She loves playing piano and violin, but never come across her mind to major in Music.


Yes well, in sixth grade I was screening what kind of lawyer I wanted to be.

In high school I did science internships and won chemistry and physics awards.

I'm now a government policy analyst.

Don't pat yourself on the back about your daughters medical career too early.
Yes, it just makes me laugh that anyone is certain about what their sixth-grader will turn out to be like. Make it through adolescence first and then tell us about it.
Anonymous
Post 04/16/2014 16:32     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote: NP here. We are currently doing college tours, and I was interested in the response of DH, a successful and pragmatic businessman with a background in management consulting. To my surprise,he was totally turned off by the prestigious university where most of the undergrad tour guides introduced themselves as business majors. In his view, no one needs four years of business classes for an entry level business job. As he put it, if you don't spend your college years learning "why Beethoven matters," you likely will never know, and you and society as a whole will be poorer as a result. He described a med school for which he consults where the Dean told him he wants students with liberal arts backgrounds because they are more complete individuals and connect with others well. DH was most impressed with the SLAC we visited. According to their published lists of what recent grads have done, plenty have gotten jobs in the financial sector. To be sure, most went for grad degrees eventually. We will be happy if our DCs go that route, but admittedly it is very expensive and makes more sense if the SLAC is well regarded.


PP here. Don't doubt your husband, though I'm pretty sure MBB consulting takes more from Wharton even on a percentage basis than your top LAC like AWS.

But your comment is irrelevant because majoring in history at Williams does not stop one from getting a job at Bain or McKinsey or BCG whereas history at UMD isn't really going to get past resume screens (those firms don't do OCI at UMD).

Anonymous
Post 04/16/2014 07:23     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
NP here. We are currently doing college tours, and I was interested in the response of DH, a successful and pragmatic businessman with a background in management consulting. To my surprise,he was totally turned off by the prestigious university where most of the undergrad tour guides introduced themselves as business majors. In his view, no one needs four years of business classes for an entry level business job. As he put it, if you don't spend your college years learning "why Beethoven matters," you likely will never know, and you and society as a whole will be poorer as a result. He described a med school for which he consults where the Dean told him he wants students with liberal arts backgrounds because they are more complete individuals and connect with others well. DH was most impressed with the SLAC we visited. According to their published lists of what recent grads have done, plenty have gotten jobs in the financial sector. To be sure, most went for grad degrees eventually. We will be happy if our DCs go that route, but admittedly it is very expensive and makes more sense if the SLAC is well regarded.
Anonymous
Post 04/15/2014 21:35     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My history major son is in the financial sector in NYC and making enough money for an apartment in Soho - no roommates. Younger son, an English major, is in the financial sector in this area. He graduated last year. I think they've been able to land jobs because they work hard, they believe in themselves and developed excellent writing and critical thinking skills through the liberal arts. And part of them believing in themselves is that their parents do too.

I feel sorry for OPs son. Having parents who don't believe in you is a real strike against you.


Good for your sons, but if someone wanted to work in the finance sector, why not just major in finance? That seems like much less of a gamble than majoring in Dnglish/History and expecting to work in the finance sector. I mean, if someone wants to work in the fields of history or English then great, major in history or English, but why major in them if you don't? Not sure I understand the point of your point.


Because finance can be learned on the job, or you can have the company pay for your MBA, which is how the investment banks have been doing it for years. They want sharp, educated people who can appreciate the world, the arts, sciences and literature, not just one-dimensional number crunchers.

This is not true unless you went to an IVY or a very high ranked school. And it's usually only true for Investment Banking which is overwhelmingly a sales job and has very little to do with actual finance work.

The majority of corporate finance/accounting jobs require a finance/accounting degree. My company specifies that an ideal candidate has a finance or accounting degree and three years as an analyst.


PP here. Yes, I was thinking more of investment banking and as a business major I know that for other finance and particularly accounting jobs, companies are looking for business degrees.

That said, if business isn't your kid's passion, a business major isn't going to serve them well even if they do get a job right out of college. I was a business because it was practical major and have spent the rest of my adult life getting a real education in other disciplines -- history, language, arts and sciences.
Anonymous
Post 04/15/2014 18:04     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:Op, I am with the few people that agree with you.
If the reason not taking STEM majors was to avoid Calculus, how about Accounting? It is 4 year BS, practical if pass CPA.

I have been brain washing my DD since.. well.. since she was born. She is in 6th grade now and is screening which type of doctor she wants to be (currently narrowed down to radiologist and anaesthetist). She will start internship as soon as she enters high school. She loves playing piano and violin, but never come across her mind to major in Music.


Yes well, in sixth grade I was screening what kind of lawyer I wanted to be.

In high school I did science internships and won chemistry and physics awards.

I'm now a government policy analyst.

Don't pat yourself on the back about your daughters medical career too early.
Anonymous
Post 04/15/2014 17:59     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Op, I am with the few people that agree with you.
If the reason not taking STEM majors was to avoid Calculus, how about Accounting? It is 4 year BS, practical if pass CPA.

I have been brain washing my DD since.. well.. since she was born. She is in 6th grade now and is screening which type of doctor she wants to be (currently narrowed down to radiologist and anaesthetist). She will start internship as soon as she enters high school. She loves playing piano and violin, but never come across her mind to major in Music.


This is a recipe for disaster. And the parents who push their kids to take practical majors are often doing them a disservice. Years ago, I majored in accounting instead of English because it was "practical." I was good at math, yada, yada. Problem was I was miserable as an CPA. I mean barely able to get out of bed miserable. Ultimately, I learned my lesson and changed careers. I've been a much happier and more successful writer for the past 25 years.

I tell my kids to find something they love and work hard. The rest will take care of itself. I get that we're all worried about our children getting jobs, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we think steering or forcing them into a marketable major is the answer. Someone who doesn't like STEM isn't going to go far no matter what their aptitude. The same for an artist or musician jammed onto a business track.


I completely agree, I posted way back in the thread- my parents let me go after something I was passionate about. I studied film, but more importantly I got a well rounded design degree- the field I am working in now (quite successfully) didn't really exist when I started my undergrad and even though no one would have believed it -my design degree gave me many skills other undergrads don't have, and opened me up to multiple job markets. You can plan your children's entire career trajectory, but you can't actually live it for them. Not everyone can live their dreams, but to be truly successful in life you have to figure out how to fulfill them- forcing a major a child doesn't like is not a recipe for success just sets them on a path you assume will be successful, without drive or interest how far can they really go?
Anonymous
Post 04/15/2014 17:57     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My history major son is in the financial sector in NYC and making enough money for an apartment in Soho - no roommates. Younger son, an English major, is in the financial sector in this area. He graduated last year. I think they've been able to land jobs because they work hard, they believe in themselves and developed excellent writing and critical thinking skills through the liberal arts. And part of them believing in themselves is that their parents do too.

I feel sorry for OPs son. Having parents who don't believe in you is a real strike against you.


Good for your sons, but if someone wanted to work in the finance sector, why not just major in finance? That seems like much less of a gamble than majoring in Dnglish/History and expecting to work in the finance sector. I mean, if someone wants to work in the fields of history or English then great, major in history or English, but why major in them if you don't? Not sure I understand the point of your point.


Because finance can be learned on the job, or you can have the company pay for your MBA, which is how the investment banks have been doing it for years. They want sharp, educated people who can appreciate the world, the arts, sciences and literature, not just one-dimensional number crunchers.


I worked in IB. The vast majority are recruited from target schools are networked in. I have posted time and time again on this thread. Those that use finance or law as their examples NEED to post when the broke into the field, from what school, and how (oci, networking, alum, cold apply).

Furthermore, post financial crisis, breaking into finance is even more difficult compared to early-mid 2000's when banks recruited for more analysts and wider range of schools.

A history major at Brown is going to have lot more options than a history major at UMD. And that's the unfortunate truth.
Anonymous
Post 04/15/2014 17:54     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:Op, I am with the few people that agree with you.
If the reason not taking STEM majors was to avoid Calculus, how about Accounting? It is 4 year BS, practical if pass CPA.

I have been brain washing my DD since.. well.. since she was born. She is in 6th grade now and is screening which type of doctor she wants to be (currently narrowed down to radiologist and anaesthetist). She will start internship as soon as she enters high school. She loves playing piano and violin, but never come across her mind to major in Music.


at 6th grade, how does she even know what a radiologist or anesthesiologist is?

I too have been "brainwashing" my daughter into becoming a doctor. She is also in 6th grade. I am not sure however if she will listen to me later in life but I can only hope.
I think it does help when parents help pave the path for them but ultimately it will be their decision.

Are you or your DD's father doctors? We have several doctors in the family, so that really helps. One of our family members is the Chief in his department and said he can offer her internships over the summer.

but anyway this is totally off topic
Anonymous
Post 04/15/2014 17:44     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My history major son is in the financial sector in NYC and making enough money for an apartment in Soho - no roommates. Younger son, an English major, is in the financial sector in this area. He graduated last year. I think they've been able to land jobs because they work hard, they believe in themselves and developed excellent writing and critical thinking skills through the liberal arts. And part of them believing in themselves is that their parents do too.

I feel sorry for OPs son. Having parents who don't believe in you is a real strike against you.


Good for your sons, but if someone wanted to work in the finance sector, why not just major in finance? That seems like much less of a gamble than majoring in Dnglish/History and expecting to work in the finance sector. I mean, if someone wants to work in the fields of history or English then great, major in history or English, but why major in them if you don't? Not sure I understand the point of your point.


Because finance can be learned on the job, or you can have the company pay for your MBA, which is how the investment banks have been doing it for years. They want sharp, educated people who can appreciate the world, the arts, sciences and literature, not just one-dimensional number crunchers.

This is not true unless you went to an IVY or a very high ranked school. And it's usually only true for Investment Banking which is overwhelmingly a sales job and has very little to do with actual finance work.

The majority of corporate finance/accounting jobs require a finance/accounting degree. My company specifies that an ideal candidate has a finance or accounting degree and three years as an analyst.
Anonymous
Post 04/15/2014 15:31     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Op, I am with the few people that agree with you.
If the reason not taking STEM majors was to avoid Calculus, how about Accounting? It is 4 year BS, practical if pass CPA.

I have been brain washing my DD since.. well.. since she was born. She is in 6th grade now and is screening which type of doctor she wants to be (currently narrowed down to radiologist and anaesthetist). She will start internship as soon as she enters high school. She loves playing piano and violin, but never come across her mind to major in Music.


This is a recipe for disaster. And the parents who push their kids to take practical majors are often doing them a disservice. Years ago, I majored in accounting instead of English because it was "practical." I was good at math, yada, yada. Problem was I was miserable as an CPA. I mean barely able to get out of bed miserable. Ultimately, I learned my lesson and changed careers. I've been a much happier and more successful writer for the past 25 years.

I tell my kids to find something they love and work hard. The rest will take care of itself. I get that we're all worried about our children getting jobs, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we think steering or forcing them into a marketable major is the answer. Someone who doesn't like STEM isn't going to go far no matter what their aptitude. The same for an artist or musician jammed onto a business track.


I agree with PP a 100%. I did really well in math in college (I had a 4.0 so I had As in all of the classes). I was MISERABLE doing it however. I LOVED history and art and it came naturally to me. Just because you can hack it doesn't mean it will make you happy. If you aren't happy i doubt you'll be successful.
Anonymous
Post 04/15/2014 15:28     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:Op, I am with the few people that agree with you.
If the reason not taking STEM majors was to avoid Calculus, how about Accounting? It is 4 year BS, practical if pass CPA.

I have been brain washing my DD since.. well.. since she was born. She is in 6th grade now and is screening which type of doctor she wants to be (currently narrowed down to radiologist and anaesthetist). She will start internship as soon as she enters high school. She loves playing piano and violin, but never come across her mind to major in Music.


This is a recipe for disaster. And the parents who push their kids to take practical majors are often doing them a disservice. Years ago, I majored in accounting instead of English because it was "practical." I was good at math, yada, yada. Problem was I was miserable as an CPA. I mean barely able to get out of bed miserable. Ultimately, I learned my lesson and changed careers. I've been a much happier and more successful writer for the past 25 years.

I tell my kids to find something they love and work hard. The rest will take care of itself. I get that we're all worried about our children getting jobs, but I think we're kidding ourselves if we think steering or forcing them into a marketable major is the answer. Someone who doesn't like STEM isn't going to go far no matter what their aptitude. The same for an artist or musician jammed onto a business track.
Anonymous
Post 04/15/2014 15:20     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:My history major son is in the financial sector in NYC and making enough money for an apartment in Soho - no roommates. Younger son, an English major, is in the financial sector in this area. He graduated last year. I think they've been able to land jobs because they work hard, they believe in themselves and developed excellent writing and critical thinking skills through the liberal arts. And part of them believing in themselves is that their parents do too.

I feel sorry for OPs son. Having parents who don't believe in you is a real strike against you.


Good for your sons, but if someone wanted to work in the finance sector, why not just major in finance? That seems like much less of a gamble than majoring in Dnglish/History and expecting to work in the finance sector. I mean, if someone wants to work in the fields of history or English then great, major in history or English, but why major in them if you don't? Not sure I understand the point of your point.


Because finance can be learned on the job, or you can have the company pay for your MBA, which is how the investment banks have been doing it for years. They want sharp, educated people who can appreciate the world, the arts, sciences and literature, not just one-dimensional number crunchers.
Anonymous
Post 04/15/2014 14:43     Subject: Arguing with DS over major
Op, I am with the few people that agree with you.
If the reason not taking STEM majors was to avoid Calculus, how about Accounting? It is 4 year BS, practical if pass CPA.

I have been brain washing my DD since.. well.. since she was born. She is in 6th grade now and is screening which type of doctor she wants to be (currently narrowed down to radiologist and anaesthetist). She will start internship as soon as she enters high school. She loves playing piano and violin, but never come across her mind to major in Music.