Anonymous wrote:

Where did he say that? There are two parts to his letter - explanation and instructions on what we need to do. Yes, explanation doesn't mention islam, but then when he actually says what he wants from us, he explicitly states that he wants us to convert to islam. It doesn't really get any clearer than that.

Yet, you are willfully blind to that fact. You are the one who chose to ignore an important part of his letter. I am very well of the other part; in fact I bet that you never noticed this other little thing while I have been aware of your "they kill us here because we are over there" bullshit all along.

OK buddy, you can look at the sun and tell me it's midnight for as long as you like. Nothing is going to change the fact that, when discussing his reasons for attacking us, you omitted the entirety of his answer to that question and substituted something else.

As for your attempt to pretend this is about converting Christians, I will point out that he didn't attack South America, an almost entirely Christian continent. He didn't attack the Christian European countries uninvolved in the ME. He didn't attack the Christian African nations despite proximity.

Let's take a look at his attacks and see the common thread:

He bombed a hotel with US military troops in Yemen, he attacked the World Trade Center Twice (Ramzi Yousef's stated reason: "This action was done in response for the American political, economical, and military support to Israel, the state of terrorism, and to the rest of the dictator countries in the region"), attacked two US embassies in Africa, he launched a number of plots to blow up airliners, he blew up a US Warship (the Cole), he blew up two synagogues in Turkey and set off truck bombs in front of the British Consulate and the HSBC headquarters, September 11 attacks on WTC and the Pentagon, bombing of the London Underground, suicide bomb in Algiers, bombing of the Danish Embassy, shooting of the Little Rock recruiting office, NW Flight 253, and a whole bunch of attacks in Iraq.

So basically he has attacked almost entirely military, political and economic targets.

Where did he say that? There are two parts to his letter - explanation and instructions on what we need to do. Yes, explanation doesn't mention islam, but then when he actually says what he wants from us, he explicitly states that he wants us to convert to islam. It doesn't really get any clearer than that.

Yet, you are willfully blind to that fact. You are the one who chose to ignore an important part of his letter. I am very well of the other part; in fact I bet that you never noticed this other little thing while I have been aware of your "they kill us here because we are over there" bullshit all along.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i apologize for nitpicking, but isn't the PP who is limiting to the last 75 years the same one who said "where else in the 10,000 years of recorded civilizations ..."? Actually, perhaps the difference between 75 and 10,000 is more than a nit. BTW, what recorded civilizations go back 10,000 years???

This is just rhetorical, since the other PP was actually limiting to the past century anyway, so don't feel a need to respond. The 10,000 exaggeration did not bother me until the fuss over the 75.

ugh. try to follow along dimwit. 10,000 years of history was an exaggeration. I'm happy to limit it to 3,000. Is that better? Over all of recorded history, when one country had hegemonic power (even regionally), they have always been not shy about exercising that power in expanding, conquering and oppressing others. The examples are countless. Roman, Greek, Persian, French, British, Mongols, Russian, Saxons, Mayans, Aztec, Incans, etc etc etc. The USA has been in that category for say the last 75 years, that was the point. We did not invade Canada in 1952, we invaded Canada in 1812.

I would like to point out again that the Roman Empire went 200 years without war.

Also despite China's immense size, I don't think it has expanded its territory in any significant way since 1950, which was just a few short years after the revolution, and the territory it annexed had been part of the former chinese empire. China's military activity is almost exclusively contained to its own region and the countries which border it. We can't say the same, that's for sure. You may not like what they do and why, but when was the last time you saw China drop troops into South America?

I'm not sure how a country in the Western Hemisphere, which puts nuclear weapons in Europe and Asia, can call its military policy restrained. I'm not sure how a country which invades nations half way around the world is restrained. In what part of human history has any country felt that its vital interests extended 12,000 miles away from its border?

We are a highly interventionist country. That's not restraint.

if China or the UK or Russia could afford it, they would. and China will soon be able to afford it, and will be projecting its force wherever they can. trust me on that.

+1
People keep confusing capacity with motivation. Many countries would not hesitate to enslave us if they could. But they can't.

Wow, with that belief I guess you can justify anything we do. So why even bother pretending about restraint?

Have you ever wondered why most embassies in our country have little or no security, while all of our buildings require barricades and bomb proof glass? You can walk up to the Swedish Embassy and go in. The last embassy I visited had not even plugged in its metal detector.

Guess what? No one wants to enslave or destroy those countries. Their defense is to not make enemies.

No their defense is the US, actually. Other countries fear the US when thinking about attacking others.

Uh, they seem to attack us with some frequency. So that logic is out the window.

The frequency is much lower than it would otherwise be. Also US allies are much less likely to be attacked.

Now you are just stating your political belief. You can't say that we would be attacked more if we stayed out of the Middle East. Every indication is that they attack us for our support of Israel, our occupation of Lebanon, our military presence in the ME. That's what Hizbollah said, that's what Bin Laden said. I take them at their word that they want us out of the Middle East.

Bin Laden explicitly said that he wants us all convert to convert to islam. Here:

"(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

You little BS weasel. You are a disgrace to the truth.

For the record posters, the PP managed to edit out Bin Laden's actual answer to why he attacked us. Here is the actual quote, which I will abbreviate with ellipsis so that I don't run afoul of Jeff's rules but you can read in full from the PP's link:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years...And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) ...

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom,...

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us ...

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. ...

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

{and the answer to this second question is what the pp deceptively passed off as the answer to question 1}

Shame on you, PP. It is one thing to have an opinion. It is another to entirely omit the direct, written answer to the question.

You are a disgrace to conservatives everywhere.

I am sorry, but bin Laden said explicitly he wants us all to convert to islam. That fact that he also complains about other stuff does not change that point. Btw, I left the link to the whole piece. I know what is there. But I have seen you and many like you quote this over over and over again while completely ignoring that he himself has essentially admitted that, regardless of what else we do he wants us all ALSO to become Muslims.

Yes it does. There are lots of Christians who he does not feel the need to go after. This "other stuff" is his exact answer to why he attacked us. You are a liar for ignoring his point by point response to the question.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:That's such a weird way to look at things. Nations are not infallible. Loyalty to a nation makes it easier for that nation to make you do immoral things. Be loyal to your morals/values instead.

+1

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i apologize for nitpicking, but isn't the PP who is limiting to the last 75 years the same one who said "where else in the 10,000 years of recorded civilizations ..."? Actually, perhaps the difference between 75 and 10,000 is more than a nit. BTW, what recorded civilizations go back 10,000 years???

This is just rhetorical, since the other PP was actually limiting to the past century anyway, so don't feel a need to respond. The 10,000 exaggeration did not bother me until the fuss over the 75.

ugh. try to follow along dimwit. 10,000 years of history was an exaggeration. I'm happy to limit it to 3,000. Is that better? Over all of recorded history, when one country had hegemonic power (even regionally), they have always been not shy about exercising that power in expanding, conquering and oppressing others. The examples are countless. Roman, Greek, Persian, French, British, Mongols, Russian, Saxons, Mayans, Aztec, Incans, etc etc etc. The USA has been in that category for say the last 75 years, that was the point. We did not invade Canada in 1952, we invaded Canada in 1812.

I would like to point out again that the Roman Empire went 200 years without war.

Also despite China's immense size, I don't think it has expanded its territory in any significant way since 1950, which was just a few short years after the revolution, and the territory it annexed had been part of the former chinese empire. China's military activity is almost exclusively contained to its own region and the countries which border it. We can't say the same, that's for sure. You may not like what they do and why, but when was the last time you saw China drop troops into South America?

I'm not sure how a country in the Western Hemisphere, which puts nuclear weapons in Europe and Asia, can call its military policy restrained. I'm not sure how a country which invades nations half way around the world is restrained. In what part of human history has any country felt that its vital interests extended 12,000 miles away from its border?

We are a highly interventionist country. That's not restraint.

if China or the UK or Russia could afford it, they would. and China will soon be able to afford it, and will be projecting its force wherever they can. trust me on that.

+1
People keep confusing capacity with motivation. Many countries would not hesitate to enslave us if they could. But they can't.

Wow, with that belief I guess you can justify anything we do. So why even bother pretending about restraint?

Have you ever wondered why most embassies in our country have little or no security, while all of our buildings require barricades and bomb proof glass? You can walk up to the Swedish Embassy and go in. The last embassy I visited had not even plugged in its metal detector.

Guess what? No one wants to enslave or destroy those countries. Their defense is to not make enemies.

No their defense is the US, actually. Other countries fear the US when thinking about attacking others.

Uh, they seem to attack us with some frequency. So that logic is out the window.

The frequency is much lower than it would otherwise be. Also US allies are much less likely to be attacked.

Now you are just stating your political belief. You can't say that we would be attacked more if we stayed out of the Middle East. Every indication is that they attack us for our support of Israel, our occupation of Lebanon, our military presence in the ME. That's what Hizbollah said, that's what Bin Laden said. I take them at their word that they want us out of the Middle East.

Bin Laden explicitly said that he wants us all convert to convert to islam. Here:

"(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

You little BS weasel. You are a disgrace to the truth.

For the record posters, the PP managed to edit out Bin Laden's actual answer to why he attacked us. Here is the actual quote, which I will abbreviate with ellipsis so that I don't run afoul of Jeff's rules but you can read in full from the PP's link:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years...And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) ...

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom,...

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us ...

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. ...

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

{and the answer to this second question is what the pp deceptively passed off as the answer to question 1}

Shame on you, PP. It is one thing to have an opinion. It is another to entirely omit the direct, written answer to the question.

You are a disgrace to conservatives everywhere.

I am sorry, but bin Laden said explicitly he wants us all to convert to islam. That fact that he also complains about other stuff does not change that point. Btw, I left the link to the whole piece. I know what is there. But I have seen you and many like you quote this over over and over again while completely ignoring that he himself has essentially admitted that, regardless of what else we do he wants us all ALSO to become Muslims.

Anonymous wrote:That's such a weird way to look at things. Nations are not infallible. Loyalty to a nation makes it easier for that nation to make you do immoral things. Be loyal to your morals/values instead.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i apologize for nitpicking, but isn't the PP who is limiting to the last 75 years the same one who said "where else in the 10,000 years of recorded civilizations ..."? Actually, perhaps the difference between 75 and 10,000 is more than a nit. BTW, what recorded civilizations go back 10,000 years???

This is just rhetorical, since the other PP was actually limiting to the past century anyway, so don't feel a need to respond. The 10,000 exaggeration did not bother me until the fuss over the 75.

ugh. try to follow along dimwit. 10,000 years of history was an exaggeration. I'm happy to limit it to 3,000. Is that better? Over all of recorded history, when one country had hegemonic power (even regionally), they have always been not shy about exercising that power in expanding, conquering and oppressing others. The examples are countless. Roman, Greek, Persian, French, British, Mongols, Russian, Saxons, Mayans, Aztec, Incans, etc etc etc. The USA has been in that category for say the last 75 years, that was the point. We did not invade Canada in 1952, we invaded Canada in 1812.

I would like to point out again that the Roman Empire went 200 years without war.

Also despite China's immense size, I don't think it has expanded its territory in any significant way since 1950, which was just a few short years after the revolution, and the territory it annexed had been part of the former chinese empire. China's military activity is almost exclusively contained to its own region and the countries which border it. We can't say the same, that's for sure. You may not like what they do and why, but when was the last time you saw China drop troops into South America?

I'm not sure how a country in the Western Hemisphere, which puts nuclear weapons in Europe and Asia, can call its military policy restrained. I'm not sure how a country which invades nations half way around the world is restrained. In what part of human history has any country felt that its vital interests extended 12,000 miles away from its border?

We are a highly interventionist country. That's not restraint.

if China or the UK or Russia could afford it, they would. and China will soon be able to afford it, and will be projecting its force wherever they can. trust me on that.

+1
People keep confusing capacity with motivation. Many countries would not hesitate to enslave us if they could. But they can't.

Wow, with that belief I guess you can justify anything we do. So why even bother pretending about restraint?

Have you ever wondered why most embassies in our country have little or no security, while all of our buildings require barricades and bomb proof glass? You can walk up to the Swedish Embassy and go in. The last embassy I visited had not even plugged in its metal detector.

Guess what? No one wants to enslave or destroy those countries. Their defense is to not make enemies.

No their defense is the US, actually. Other countries fear the US when thinking about attacking others.

Uh, they seem to attack us with some frequency. So that logic is out the window.

The frequency is much lower than it would otherwise be. Also US allies are much less likely to be attacked.

Now you are just stating your political belief. You can't say that we would be attacked more if we stayed out of the Middle East. Every indication is that they attack us for our support of Israel, our occupation of Lebanon, our military presence in the ME. That's what Hizbollah said, that's what Bin Laden said. I take them at their word that they want us out of the Middle East.

Bin Laden explicitly said that he wants us all convert to convert to islam. Here:

"(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

You little BS weasel. You are a disgrace to the truth.

For the record posters, the PP managed to edit out Bin Laden's actual answer to why he attacked us. Here is the actual quote, which I will abbreviate with ellipsis so that I don't run afoul of Jeff's rules but you can read in full from the PP's link:

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years...And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) ...

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom,...

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us ...

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. ...

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

{and the answer to this second question is what the pp deceptively passed off as the answer to question 1}

Shame on you, PP. It is one thing to have an opinion. It is another to entirely omit the direct, written answer to the question.

You are a disgrace to conservatives everywhere.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't necessarily feel proud, b/c I did not do anything to be born this way. I just was born, and I was an American. Why be PROUD of that?

However, I do feel lucky to be an American, or, rather, I feel lucky to live in a democratic society.

Many of us went through considerable difficulties to become Americans. So though his might apply to many people, please stop implying like it is incomprehensible that anyone could ever be proud to be American.

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Anonymous wrote:i apologize for nitpicking, but isn't the PP who is limiting to the last 75 years the same one who said "where else in the 10,000 years of recorded civilizations ..."? Actually, perhaps the difference between 75 and 10,000 is more than a nit. BTW, what recorded civilizations go back 10,000 years???

This is just rhetorical, since the other PP was actually limiting to the past century anyway, so don't feel a need to respond. The 10,000 exaggeration did not bother me until the fuss over the 75.

ugh. try to follow along dimwit. 10,000 years of history was an exaggeration. I'm happy to limit it to 3,000. Is that better? Over all of recorded history, when one country had hegemonic power (even regionally), they have always been not shy about exercising that power in expanding, conquering and oppressing others. The examples are countless. Roman, Greek, Persian, French, British, Mongols, Russian, Saxons, Mayans, Aztec, Incans, etc etc etc. The USA has been in that category for say the last 75 years, that was the point. We did not invade Canada in 1952, we invaded Canada in 1812.

I would like to point out again that the Roman Empire went 200 years without war.

Also despite China's immense size, I don't think it has expanded its territory in any significant way since 1950, which was just a few short years after the revolution, and the territory it annexed had been part of the former chinese empire. China's military activity is almost exclusively contained to its own region and the countries which border it. We can't say the same, that's for sure. You may not like what they do and why, but when was the last time you saw China drop troops into South America?

I'm not sure how a country in the Western Hemisphere, which puts nuclear weapons in Europe and Asia, can call its military policy restrained. I'm not sure how a country which invades nations half way around the world is restrained. In what part of human history has any country felt that its vital interests extended 12,000 miles away from its border?

We are a highly interventionist country. That's not restraint.

if China or the UK or Russia could afford it, they would. and China will soon be able to afford it, and will be projecting its force wherever they can. trust me on that.

+1
People keep confusing capacity with motivation. Many countries would not hesitate to enslave us if they could. But they can't.

Wow, with that belief I guess you can justify anything we do. So why even bother pretending about restraint?

Have you ever wondered why most embassies in our country have little or no security, while all of our buildings require barricades and bomb proof glass? You can walk up to the Swedish Embassy and go in. The last embassy I visited had not even plugged in its metal detector.

Guess what? No one wants to enslave or destroy those countries. Their defense is to not make enemies.

No their defense is the US, actually. Other countries fear the US when thinking about attacking others.

Uh, they seem to attack us with some frequency. So that logic is out the window.

The frequency is much lower than it would otherwise be. Also US allies are much less likely to be attacked.

Now you are just stating your political belief. You can't say that we would be attacked more if we stayed out of the Middle East. Every indication is that they attack us for our support of Israel, our occupation of Lebanon, our military presence in the ME. That's what Hizbollah said, that's what Bin Laden said. I take them at their word that they want us out of the Middle East.

Bin Laden explicitly said that he wants us all convert to convert to islam. Here:

"(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

(Q1) Why are we fighting and opposing you?
Q2)What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

As for the first question: Why are we fighting and opposing you? The answer is very simple:

(1) Because you attacked us and continue to attack us.

a) You attacked us in Palestine:

(i) Palestine, which has sunk under military occupation for more than 80 years...And of course there is no need to explain and prove the degree of American support for Israel. The creation of Israel is a crime which must be erased. Each and every person whose hands have become polluted in the contribution towards this crime must pay its*price, and pay for it heavily.

(ii) ...

(b) You attacked us in Somalia; you supported the Russian atrocities against us in Chechnya, the Indian oppression against us in Kashmir, and the Jewish aggression against us in Lebanon.

(c) Under your supervision, consent and orders, the governments of our countries which act as your agents, attack us on a daily basis;

(i) These governments prevent our people from establishing the Islamic Shariah, using violence and lies to do so.

(ii) These governments give us a taste of humiliation, and places us in a large prison of fear and subdual.

(iii) These governments steal our Ummah's wealth and sell them to you at a paltry price.

(iv) These governments have surrendered to the Jews, and handed them most of Palestine, acknowledging the existence of their state over the dismembered limbs of their own people.

(v) The removal of these governments is an obligation upon us, and a necessary step to free the Ummah, to make the Shariah the supreme law and to regain Palestine. And our fight against these governments is not separate from out fight against you.

(d) You steal our wealth and oil at paltry prices because of you international influence and military threats. This theft is indeed the biggest theft ever witnessed by mankind in the history of the world.

(e) Your forces occupy our countries; you spread your military bases throughout them; you corrupt our lands, and you besiege our sanctities, to protect the security of the Jews and to ensure the continuity of your pillage of our treasures.

(f) You have starved the Muslims of Iraq, where children die every day. It is a wonder that more than 1.5 million Iraqi children have died as a result of your sanctions, and you did not show concern. Yet when 3000 of your people died, the entire world rises and has not yet sat down.

(g) You have supported the Jews in their idea that Jerusalem is their eternal capital, and agreed to move your embassy there. With your help and under your protection, the Israelis are planning to destroy the Al-Aqsa mosque. Under the protection of your weapons, Sharon entered the Al-Aqsa mosque, to pollute it as a preparation to capture and destroy it.

(2) These tragedies and calamities are only a few examples of your oppression and aggression against us. It is commanded by our religion and intellect that the oppressed have a right to return the aggression. Do not await anything from us but Jihad, resistance and revenge. Is it in any way rational to expect that after America has attacked us for more than half a century, that we will then leave her to live in security and peace?!!

(3) You may then dispute that all the above does not justify aggression against civilians, for crimes they did not commit and offenses in which they did not partake:

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom,...

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us ...

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(f) Allah, the Almighty, legislated the permission and the option to take revenge. Thus, if we are attacked, then we have the right to attack back. ...

The American Government and press still refuses to answer the question:

Why did they attack us in New York and Washington?

If Sharon is a man of peace in the eyes of Bush, then we are also men of peace!!! America does not understand the language of manners and principles, so we are addressing it using the language it understands.

(Q2) As for the second question that we want to answer: What are we calling you to, and what do we want from you?

{and the answer to this second question is what the pp deceptively passed off as the answer to question 1}

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i apologize for nitpicking, but isn't the PP who is limiting to the last 75 years the same one who said "where else in the 10,000 years of recorded civilizations ..."? Actually, perhaps the difference between 75 and 10,000 is more than a nit. BTW, what recorded civilizations go back 10,000 years???

This is just rhetorical, since the other PP was actually limiting to the past century anyway, so don't feel a need to respond. The 10,000 exaggeration did not bother me until the fuss over the 75.

ugh. try to follow along dimwit. 10,000 years of history was an exaggeration. I'm happy to limit it to 3,000. Is that better? Over all of recorded history, when one country had hegemonic power (even regionally), they have always been not shy about exercising that power in expanding, conquering and oppressing others. The examples are countless. Roman, Greek, Persian, French, British, Mongols, Russian, Saxons, Mayans, Aztec, Incans, etc etc etc. The USA has been in that category for say the last 75 years, that was the point. We did not invade Canada in 1952, we invaded Canada in 1812.

I would like to point out again that the Roman Empire went 200 years without war.

Also despite China's immense size, I don't think it has expanded its territory in any significant way since 1950, which was just a few short years after the revolution, and the territory it annexed had been part of the former chinese empire. China's military activity is almost exclusively contained to its own region and the countries which border it. We can't say the same, that's for sure. You may not like what they do and why, but when was the last time you saw China drop troops into South America?

I'm not sure how a country in the Western Hemisphere, which puts nuclear weapons in Europe and Asia, can call its military policy restrained. I'm not sure how a country which invades nations half way around the world is restrained. In what part of human history has any country felt that its vital interests extended 12,000 miles away from its border?

We are a highly interventionist country. That's not restraint.

if China or the UK or Russia could afford it, they would. and China will soon be able to afford it, and will be projecting its force wherever they can. trust me on that.

+1
People keep confusing capacity with motivation. Many countries would not hesitate to enslave us if they could. But they can't.

Wow, with that belief I guess you can justify anything we do. So why even bother pretending about restraint?

Have you ever wondered why most embassies in our country have little or no security, while all of our buildings require barricades and bomb proof glass? You can walk up to the Swedish Embassy and go in. The last embassy I visited had not even plugged in its metal detector.

Guess what? No one wants to enslave or destroy those countries. Their defense is to not make enemies.

No their defense is the US, actually. Other countries fear the US when thinking about attacking others.

Uh, they seem to attack us with some frequency. So that logic is out the window.

The frequency is much lower than it would otherwise be. Also US allies are much less likely to be attacked.

Now you are just stating your political belief. You can't say that we would be attacked more if we stayed out of the Middle East. Every indication is that they attack us for our support of Israel, our occupation of Lebanon, our military presence in the ME. That's what Hizbollah said, that's what Bin Laden said. I take them at their word that they want us out of the Middle East.

Anonymous wrote:I don't necessarily feel proud, b/c I did not do anything to be born this way. I just was born, and I was an American. Why be PROUD of that?

However, I do feel lucky to be an American, or, rather, I feel lucky to live in a democratic society.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:i apologize for nitpicking, but isn't the PP who is limiting to the last 75 years the same one who said "where else in the 10,000 years of recorded civilizations ..."? Actually, perhaps the difference between 75 and 10,000 is more than a nit. BTW, what recorded civilizations go back 10,000 years???

This is just rhetorical, since the other PP was actually limiting to the past century anyway, so don't feel a need to respond. The 10,000 exaggeration did not bother me until the fuss over the 75.

ugh. try to follow along dimwit. 10,000 years of history was an exaggeration. I'm happy to limit it to 3,000. Is that better? Over all of recorded history, when one country had hegemonic power (even regionally), they have always been not shy about exercising that power in expanding, conquering and oppressing others. The examples are countless. Roman, Greek, Persian, French, British, Mongols, Russian, Saxons, Mayans, Aztec, Incans, etc etc etc. The USA has been in that category for say the last 75 years, that was the point. We did not invade Canada in 1952, we invaded Canada in 1812.

I would like to point out again that the Roman Empire went 200 years without war.

Also despite China's immense size, I don't think it has expanded its territory in any significant way since 1950, which was just a few short years after the revolution, and the territory it annexed had been part of the former chinese empire. China's military activity is almost exclusively contained to its own region and the countries which border it. We can't say the same, that's for sure. You may not like what they do and why, but when was the last time you saw China drop troops into South America?

I'm not sure how a country in the Western Hemisphere, which puts nuclear weapons in Europe and Asia, can call its military policy restrained. I'm not sure how a country which invades nations half way around the world is restrained. In what part of human history has any country felt that its vital interests extended 12,000 miles away from its border?

We are a highly interventionist country. That's not restraint.

if China or the UK or Russia could afford it, they would. and China will soon be able to afford it, and will be projecting its force wherever they can. trust me on that.

+1
People keep confusing capacity with motivation. Many countries would not hesitate to enslave us if they could. But they can't.

Wow, with that belief I guess you can justify anything we do. So why even bother pretending about restraint?

Have you ever wondered why most embassies in our country have little or no security, while all of our buildings require barricades and bomb proof glass? You can walk up to the Swedish Embassy and go in. The last embassy I visited had not even plugged in its metal detector.

Guess what? No one wants to enslave or destroy those countries. Their defense is to not make enemies.

No their defense is the US, actually. Other countries fear the US when thinking about attacking others.

Uh, they seem to attack us with some frequency. So that logic is out the window.

The frequency is much lower than it would otherwise be. Also US allies are much less likely to be attacked.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't necessarily feel proud, b/c I did not do anything to be born this way. I just was born, and I was an American. Why be PROUD of that?

However, I do feel lucky to be an American, or, rather, I feel lucky to live in a democratic society.

You are not PROUD? Well, if you aren't, you'll be hearing from PATRIOTS really soon.