Anonymous
Post 10/26/2011 11:45     Subject: s/o Tracking
When I'm good at English or Math or Chinese, and get accelerated instruction, it's racism. When you're good at track or football and get extra coaching and playing time, it's... a failure to realize the bigger idea being discussed.

There's no possible allowance for the fact that just as some kids are naturally more athletic, others might be naturally more academic. Nope. We are all equal. With the right instruction, I could be LeBron James.
Anonymous
Post 10/26/2011 11:22     Subject: Re:s/o Tracking
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Boiled down for the case of Yu Ying: Because you now don't have a chance to spend as much time (but still substantial time) learning to read and write in Chinese, you are in a structure that will hold you back?


Yes. Putting all of the students who are struggling in one classroom is tracking and this is a structure that will create inequality. The gap between those doing the full immersion and those doing less than will grow with each passing moment. And, that gap that is created at the young age of 8 years old sets them on a downward trajectory. It is nearly impossible to catch up once you've been labeled and placed in the lower track. Why doesn't that makes sense to you, I just don't know.


The gap between those in full immersion vs those doing less will increase with respect to Chinese.
The gap between doing less Chinese and the rest of American kids their age will decrease with respect to reading.
Which is more important?
Anonymous
Post 10/26/2011 10:39     Subject: Re:s/o Tracking
Anonymous wrote:Boiled down for the case of Yu Ying: Because you now don't have a chance to spend as much time (but still substantial time) learning to read and write in Chinese, you are in a structure that will hold you back?


Yes. Putting all of the students who are struggling in one classroom is tracking and this is a structure that will create inequality. The gap between those doing the full immersion and those doing less than will grow with each passing moment. And, that gap that is created at the young age of 8 years old sets them on a downward trajectory. It is nearly impossible to catch up once you've been labeled and placed in the lower track. Why doesn't that makes sense to you, I just don't know.
Anonymous
Post 10/26/2011 10:39     Subject: Re:s/o Tracking
Anonymous wrote:Boiled down for the case of Yu Ying: Because you now don't have a chance to spend as much time (but still substantial time) learning to read and write in Chinese, you are in a structure that will hold you back?


Yes. Putting all of the students who are struggling in one classroom is tracking and this is a structure that will create inequality. The gap between those doing the full immersion and those doing less than will grow with each passing moment. And, that gap that is created at the young age of 8 years old sets them on a downward trajectory. It is nearly impossible to catch up once you've been labeled and placed in the lower track. Why doesn't that makes sense to you, I just don't know.
Anonymous
Post 10/26/2011 10:17     Subject: s/o Tracking
Anonymous wrote:It's this conversation right here that tempts me to get out of the city right now. We are a middle class family with some high expectations for our kids educational experience. We can't possibly afford private school for all if our kids and we are philosophically committed to public education.

But what I take away from my experience here in Washington public school world is that I had better be willing to spread my high performing students around to the struggling schools in order to contribute to the betterment of all public school kids.

If I do exercise due diligence and get my kids in a place where teaching and learning is happening at an acceptable level, I am labeled elitist, selfish, rascist and told my decision and hard work to put my kids in a good school is hurtful to the rest of the city.

You forgot:

* you'll be told that any school with more than 10% FARMS is an utter cesspool, where no child thrives (even if your child is attending such a school and is indeed thriving)
* even JKLMO schools give crap educations because their District-level curriculum is so very weak
* your supposedly "rigorous" charter has low test scores, so it's just a warehouse & is run by incompetents

There are many, many more criticisms where these came from. I don't know if it stems from class divides (manifested in physical divides), from the abundance of choices for public education, or from sheer mean-ness. But if you're educating children in the District, many people are going to tell you you're doing the wrong thing.
Anonymous
Post 10/26/2011 08:15     Subject: Re:s/o Tracking
Boiled down for the case of Yu Ying: Because you now don't have a chance to spend as much time (but still substantial time) learning to read and write in Chinese, you are in a structure that will hold you back?
Anonymous
Post 10/26/2011 08:09     Subject: s/o Tracking
Anonymous wrote:No axe to grind. Institutional racism involves economic class as well. Of course most of the students in DC schools are Black. The population of the city is mostly black.

This thread is about tracking...to get back to the main point. When structures are in place, like tracking, to hold back individuals from receiving an equal opportunity to learn then it is called institutional racism. It is not only about whether you are black, white, Asian, etc.

It is particularly aggregious when schools track students at the young age or 8 or 9, deciding for them at such an early age that their opportunities are going to be limited for the rest of their schooling. Why? Because it begins the downward spiral...the achievement gap...


I think you need to go brush up on what racism means. Racism is not about race? Alright . . .

You make some interesting points about the disparity in education based on SES (although I disagree with many of your tracking points, especially with respect to Yu Ying), but you lose all credibility when you make statements like that bolded above. Correlation does not equal causation.
Anonymous
Post 10/26/2011 06:19     Subject: s/o Tracking
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:18:23 I think you ask some valid questions. In my mind there is a point where motivation matters a lot and that along with background should enable a child to be in an advanced class. My question is how do you help a kid say between 8-11 catch up if they have had a less rigorous or even less effective early education so that say by 7th grade a tracking system is less about class standing and more about effort and interest? I think the structural issues that are raised is that so much time is spent on just catching even let alone going forward in many parts of the city, that even a smart motivated child is not getting pulled forward so they could take advantage of an advanced program. I do know that people will point to KIPP, but if anything that provides the rule who will pay and fund the extra programs and support. Also maybe even more importantly will get parents to support their kids in these programs? One of the reasons parents cite for leaving KIPP is that it asked too much of them.



The YY administrators are aware of this research, which is why the DCCM students are reading more, daily, in English, rather than every other day in English. The goal is not to separate "track". The goal is to create a learning environment where return to grade level is possible. Better student teacher ratio, more time reading in English, more time doing Math in English. Taking away the Chinese language barrier.

I have a friend who pulled their student from YY after a year when during Chinese classes the student was just drawing pictures all day long. Parent says, student was getting half an education. I don't know the learning characteristics of the individuals in the DCCM class, but if that is what had been happening during Chinese days, they are much better served in the DCCM environment. Parents likely had a third choice of in bounds underperforming elementary, with a ratio of 25 to 1. I'd personally pick DCCM. 6 of the 8 families offered that class for 4th graders did. The other 2 moved on.



Anonymous
Post 10/26/2011 01:14     Subject: s/o Tracking
Anonymous wrote:Got it. Anytime someone isn't performing at the same level as someone else it is racism - regardless of their actual race.

Thank you. That goes a long way towards explaining continuous and yet amorphous claims of racism in, oh, just about everything.

My white son isn't a track star. RACISM!!


Yes, sorry that it is so difficult for you to learn something apparently that is new to you and realize the bigger idea that is being discussed herein. Not interested in track stars or basketball stars, just an equal opportunity to survive in the DC schooling system.


When I'm good at English or Math or Chinese, and get accelerated instruction, it's racism. When you're good at track or football and get extra coaching and playing time, it's... a failure to realize the bigger idea being discussed.

There's no possible allowance for the fact that just as some kids are naturally more athletic, others might be naturally more academic. Nope. We are all equal. With the right instruction, I could be LeBron James.
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2011 23:53     Subject: s/o Tracking
Anonymous wrote:18:23 I think you ask some valid questions. In my mind there is a point where motivation matters a lot and that along with background should enable a child to be in an advanced class. My question is how do you help a kid say between 8-11 catch up if they have had a less rigorous or even less effective early education so that say by 7th grade a tracking system is less about class standing and more about effort and interest? I think the structural issues that are raised is that so much time is spent on just catching even let alone going forward in many parts of the city, that even a smart motivated child is not getting pulled forward so they could take advantage of an advanced program. I do know that people will point to KIPP, but if anything that provides the rule who will pay and fund the extra programs and support. Also maybe even more importantly will get parents to support their kids in these programs? One of the reasons parents cite for leaving KIPP is that it asked too much of them.


Wow! Thank you for understanding! It's an uphill battle for sure. But, here is what I believe. Teachers can and do make a difference. Certainly, children's motivation matters, but we are typically motivated to do things that we know that we are good at doing. If I'm told at age 8, that I'm not good at reading, or I perceive that I'm not good at reading, it's going to take a very dedicated teacher to help me be an avid reader. There is something in education called "the Matthew Effect." This means that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Mostly it is used in the area of reading research, but here's the gist...the more you read, the more knowledge you gain, the better you get at actually reading (e.g., fluency, vocabulary, content knowledge, comprehension, etc.). The poor gets poorer means that every minute my kid is reading and gaining those important knowledge, vocab, fluency skills, the more the kid who isn't reading is falling that much further behind. So, apply this to the tracking debate and try to think about just how much more a "poor" child will need to do in order to catch up from the gap created by tracking. Each and every day the lower track falls behind. How is it possible to catch up to the higher track?? Certainly, some are there based solely on talent. However, research indicates this is about 1%. The rest are there because of opportunity, parent income, excellent teaching, and mostly it's about a function of where you live...
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2011 23:37     Subject: s/o Tracking
Got it. Anytime someone isn't performing at the same level as someone else it is racism - regardless of their actual race.

Thank you. That goes a long way towards explaining continuous and yet amorphous claims of racism in, oh, just about everything.

My white son isn't a track star. RACISM!!


Yes, sorry that it is so difficult for you to learn something apparently that is new to you and realize the bigger idea that is being discussed herein. Not interested in track stars or basketball stars, just an equal opportunity to survive in the DC schooling system.
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2011 23:34     Subject: s/o Tracking
You bet the city is in trouble. Do you not read the newspaper?
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2011 20:42     Subject: Re:s/o Tracking
Anonymous wrote:We are not talking about Albert Einstein here. We are talking about the track that sends to to prison vs. the track that sends you to Harvard. Just asking for something a bit better than prison for these children.


So because I child is only receiving a few hours a week of Chinese instruction versus 50%, they are on the track to prison? Yikes! I guess the whole city is in trouble!
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2011 20:03     Subject: s/o Tracking
Anonymous wrote:No axe to grind. Institutional racism involves economic class as well. Of course most of the students in DC schools are Black. The population of the city is mostly black.

This thread is about tracking...to get back to the main point. When structures are in place, like tracking, to hold back individuals from receiving an equal opportunity to learn then it is called institutional racism. It is not only about whether you are black, white, Asian, etc.

It is particularly aggregious when schools track students at the young age or 8 or 9, deciding for them at such an early age that their opportunities are going to be limited for the rest of their schooling. Why? Because it begins the downward spiral...the achievement gap...


Got it. Anytime someone isn't performing at the same level as someone else it is racism - regardless of their actual race.

Thank you. That goes a long way towards explaining continuous and yet amorphous claims of racism in, oh, just about everything.

My white son isn't a track star. RACISM!!
Anonymous
Post 10/25/2011 19:43     Subject: s/o Tracking
18:23 I think you ask some valid questions. In my mind there is a point where motivation matters a lot and that along with background should enable a child to be in an advanced class. My question is how do you help a kid say between 8-11 catch up if they have had a less rigorous or even less effective early education so that say by 7th grade a tracking system is less about class standing and more about effort and interest? I think the structural issues that are raised is that so much time is spent on just catching even let alone going forward in many parts of the city, that even a smart motivated child is not getting pulled forward so they could take advantage of an advanced program. I do know that people will point to KIPP, but if anything that provides the rule who will pay and fund the extra programs and support. Also maybe even more importantly will get parents to support their kids in these programs? One of the reasons parents cite for leaving KIPP is that it asked too much of them.