Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

Of all the things on your college application, the item least susceptible to wealth and privilege is your standardized test score.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

And that’s their problem. I don’t doubt UC admissions when they say they have data on each high school spanning decades. Developing their own test means an ability to accurately assess where the skill gaps remain in California public schools and having a quantifiable way to make recommendations rather than throwing out “x% of students failed and aren’t ready.”

Gaps will always exist, because income isn’t uniform across racial lines. We need to get past the inequality part and start solutions. The SAT is alright- it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigor and substance over form.

It's more than income. Black students from the highest earning families score about the same as white students from the lowest earning families on the SAT. If you waved a magic wand and blew away the racial income gap, the SAT gap would narrow slightly but not disappear. The problem is more intractable than most people realize.

When affirmative action was around, liberals tended to support it because they were in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured it was just a small thumb on the scale. Conservatives tended to oppose it because they were also in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured URMs could just work a little harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Both were wrong, and the UC system is finding out the hard way.

There’s a lot of research showing that these gaps close when you have the white and black student in the same school. The gap explains a difference in choices by upper middle class black and white parents, not an inherent gap by race (which would imply black people are dumber).

One can spout all day about how these issues are cultural, but I find this unproductive and divisive. Everyone of every income level can do calculus I, as long as their brains aren’t pan fried by some intellectual disability. Learning algebra isn’t unique to white and Asian people; it’s something we should all feel comfortable doing, but don’t because we’ve been fed divisive lies about ability, talent, and yes victimhood.
-black person whose major required calculus in every course.

+1. Reminds me of a talk I went to by Glenn Loury

The only message conservatives have figured out to tell the black mother living off food assistant and public housing is “BE ASIAN! BE JEWISH”…are you serious? No wonder they hate you

I don't know about Jews but Asians generally think that a lot of academic ability comes down to effort and sacrifice. The people in America seem to think academic ability is inborn and color coded.

Nigerian immigrants also value education a lot and tend to do really well academically.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

That's great news and much needed. Wish they had done so before this year. We're in-state and my DS wanted to go to a UC (he would have gone to any out of his top 4-5 choices). He has a 1550 but wasn't able to submit it because of test-blind. He did not get into any of his top 5 UC choices (he was guaranteed a UC since he was in in the top 9% of CA HS seniors by GPA, but only got into UC Riverside and UC Santa Cruz, which aren't great for his intended major). He is going to a private (to a so-called "new ivy") but we're frustrated by UC's test-blind policy and hearing how they have needed to create remedial sections for math at UC San Diego (where my DS didn't get in despite a 790 in math on the SAT and A in AP calculus). We are happy that it might get better for others.

Are you from an upper middle class area? If so, you likely still would have the same issue due to regional admission. UCs aren’t really made to be solely elite kids. That’s what private schools, like the ones your kid is going to, are for.

Actually, they are supposed to be for the academically elite. Community college, Cal State system, UC System, flagship of the UC system. This isn't a regional thing. It is a high school dependent thing. However so few blacks and Hispanics would be selected for UC Berkeley that UC's look at the HIGH SCHOOL instead of the general applicant pool.

Except opportunity isn’t equal across the state. You’d eliminate any poor person or individual born in a rural area from having a top education.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

The UC system is a testament that DEI doesn’t have to mean lowering standards, the issue people have is purely political issues from the k-12 system. The UC system is all about DEI, but still most of the professors are white, most of the students are white and Asian, and the rigor is real.

In general, black students are way over talked about in these discussions. California has been bleeding out black families for decades. A lot of the issues stem with Latino majority districts. There’s a whole host of issues unique to that demographic seen across the American southwest

Not true. There are far more Hispanic students than white students. UC's are trying to get Hispanic undergraduate enrollment up to 53%. So far they are up to 30% with increases every year. They have that as the official policy: UC's are to reflect the demographics of the state.

The UC system SHOULD be more hispanic, and over time, it naturally will be. The massive gaps between white and Latino citizens is mostly due to immigration. These gaps are much smaller once you account for higher generational households.

SAT data says otherwise. Hispanics across all income and generational (first, second, third) levels perform worse than the poorest whites and Asians.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

Unfortunately California produces so few well-qualified black and Hispanic students in California public high schools that while the SAT might give them a better, fighting chance, at selecting a decent student, it will never be implemented. The cry of help from faculty and isn't just from the math faculty, it's across all STEM disciplines. This endeavor will run into the inevitable political brick wall and go nowhere. The mission of UC's officially states that Diversity, Equity and Inclusion is the critical component underlying scholarship and research. The UC's will not stray from that mission.

The UC system is a testament that DEI doesn’t have to mean lowering standards, the issue people have is purely political issues from the k-12 system. The UC system is all about DEI, but still most of the professors are white, most of the students are white and Asian, and the rigor is real.

In general, black students are way over talked about in these discussions. California has been bleeding out black families for decades. A lot of the issues stem with Latino majority districts. There’s a whole host of issues unique to that demographic seen across the American southwest

Not true. There are far more Hispanic students than white students. UC's are trying to get Hispanic undergraduate enrollment up to 53%. So far they are up to 30% with increases every year. They have that as the official policy: UC's are to reflect the demographics of the state.

The UC system SHOULD be more hispanic, and over time, it naturally will be. The massive gaps between white and Latino citizens is mostly due to immigration. These gaps are much smaller once you account for higher generational households.

Anonymous wrote:280 is a really paltry number for the size of UC. This is simply rage bait for anti CA MAGAs.

1. UCs require placement tests, so the unprepared students aren’t walking into Calculas.
2. UCs focus on conceptual math and don’t allow calculators which is the exact opposite of what is happening in high school. You can get a 750+ on the math SAT, a 5 on AP Calculus, score high enough to place into Calculus and still struggle. This is great and I’m glad they do it this way.
3. Some UCs have math professors and TAs with such strong accents that no one outside their region can understand them.
4. Math courses are weeder courses for STEM and economics. You have top students and cheaters at the top but then #2 /#3 drop too many to the bottom. The school wants a bell curve for distribution but they have a K.

The reality in CA is that there isn’t a bell curve if your class is representative of the geography, race and socioeconomic groups in CA. UCs could reinstate the SAT but that doesn’t mean that they would scrap the geographic and socioeconomic goals. Using the SAT would not reopen seats for high performing Asians and Whites.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

Over 280 University of California STEM faculty members have signed an open letter calling on the UC Board of Regents to reinstate the SAT and ACT in admissions.

The surprising thing is that it has taken 6 years for the professors to finally speak up against test optional.

I feel so badly for all the brilliant kids who lost spots to test optional kids who were wholly unqualified since the test optional performative idiocy took hold in 2020-21

They’re fine and don’t need your pity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To all those saying "don't bring back the SAT, just fix the education system!" - what specific reforms do you have in mind, and what kind of time frame are we talking? Because the UC system is bleeding reputation day by day by day... Tick tick.

The UC system is fine. I’m serious. Most posters here have no connection to California and obsess over prestige when it comes to the UC system. What they don’t realize is for decades the attrition was multiples of what it is now. Almost every student who entered the UC leaves with a degree.

Now, California has so many issues in its k-12 system that it find a perfect solution may well take a few decades. For one, we as a country messed up by making tracking illegal. But the quickest reform that could be made and financially supported (40% of the state budget is education btw) is holding students back. But to do that, we need standards in the first place. The integrated math curriculum needs to be eliminated. The UC system should develop a standardized exam in line with whatever new California standards are created. Invest more in a rural teachers program. Every school in the state should have calculus and other liberal arts advanced courses. Cities with schools that fail to deliver so should be threatened and show persistent effort in hiring. Give less power to parents and more power to teachers in terms of behavior. Evaluate grading with standardized testing performance and evaluate teachers with strong standard deviation issues. Raise the hell out of the bar for minimum “meets grade” and advanced achievement on state exams. Institute a minimum state exam score to apply to the UC system.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

And that’s their problem. I don’t doubt UC admissions when they say they have data on each high school spanning decades. Developing their own test means an ability to accurately assess where the skill gaps remain in California public schools and having a quantifiable way to make recommendations rather than throwing out “x% of students failed and aren’t ready.”

Gaps will always exist, because income isn’t uniform across racial lines. We need to get past the inequality part and start solutions. The SAT is alright- it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigor and substance over form.

It's more than income. Black students from the highest earning families score about the same as white students from the lowest earning families on the SAT. If you waved a magic wand and blew away the racial income gap, the SAT gap would narrow slightly but not disappear. The problem is more intractable than most people realize.

When affirmative action was around, liberals tended to support it because they were in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured it was just a small thumb on the scale. Conservatives tended to oppose it because they were also in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured URMs could just work a little harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Both were wrong, and the UC system is finding out the hard way.

There’s a lot of research showing that these gaps close when you have the white and black student in the same school. The gap explains a difference in choices by upper middle class black and white parents, not an inherent gap by race (which would imply black people are dumber).

One can spout all day about how these issues are cultural, but I find this unproductive and divisive. Everyone of every income level can do calculus I, as long as their brains aren’t pan fried by some intellectual disability. Learning algebra isn’t unique to white and Asian people; it’s something we should all feel comfortable doing, but don’t because we’ve been fed divisive lies about ability, talent, and yes victimhood.
-black person whose major required calculus in every course.

+1. Reminds me of a talk I went to by Glenn Loury

The only message conservatives have figured out to tell the black mother living off food assistant and public housing is “BE ASIAN! BE JEWISH”…are you serious? No wonder they hate you

I don't know about Jews but Asians generally think that a lot of academic ability comes down to effort and sacrifice. The people in America seem to think academic ability is inborn and color coded.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Alarmed by rising failure and remediation rates, professors argue that test-blind policies obscure preparation gaps, leading vulnerable students to struggle in rigorous gateway courses.

https://ucstudentsuccess.org/

Over 280 University of California STEM faculty members have signed an open letter calling on the UC Board of Regents to reinstate the SAT and ACT in admissions.

The surprising thing is that it has taken 6 years for the professors to finally speak up against test optional.

I feel so badly for all the brilliant kids who lost spots to test optional kids who were wholly unqualified since the test optional performative idiocy took hold in 2020-21

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

And that’s their problem. I don’t doubt UC admissions when they say they have data on each high school spanning decades. Developing their own test means an ability to accurately assess where the skill gaps remain in California public schools and having a quantifiable way to make recommendations rather than throwing out “x% of students failed and aren’t ready.”

Gaps will always exist, because income isn’t uniform across racial lines. We need to get past the inequality part and start solutions. The SAT is alright- it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigor and substance over form.

It's more than income. Black students from the highest earning families score about the same as white students from the lowest earning families on the SAT. If you waved a magic wand and blew away the racial income gap, the SAT gap would narrow slightly but not disappear. The problem is more intractable than most people realize.

When affirmative action was around, liberals tended to support it because they were in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured it was just a small thumb on the scale. Conservatives tended to oppose it because they were also in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured URMs could just work a little harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Both were wrong, and the UC system is finding out the hard way.

There’s a lot of research showing that these gaps close when you have the white and black student in the same school. The gap explains a difference in choices by upper middle class black and white parents, not an inherent gap by race (which would imply black people are dumber).

One can spout all day about how these issues are cultural, but I find this unproductive and divisive. Everyone of every income level can do calculus I, as long as their brains aren’t pan fried by some intellectual disability. Learning algebra isn’t unique to white and Asian people; it’s something we should all feel comfortable doing, but don’t because we’ve been fed divisive lies about ability, talent, and yes victimhood.
-black person whose major required calculus in every course.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am surprised so few of them signed this letter. Where are the rest? Are they happy with the current state of UC education?

You think 280 STEM professors at Berkeley isn't a lot? That's half the total STEM faculty.

It's 280 all over the UC system, not just Berkeley.

Not all professors agree with this. I don’t know why they’re recommending the SAT when the UC system was supposed to be developing its own rigorous exam designed by UC faculty.

They looked into the CAASPP as an alternative. The CAASPP is California's state-wide academic barometer test given to different grades, like 8th, 11th. The same racial disparities that afflicted the SAT were found in the CAASPP. The use of standardized testing is a very sensitive one in California because there is the belief that white supremacy has infected the entirety of how academic achievement is measured and that whatever path California takes has to be completely distinct from all past iterations.

The UC system looked at developing its own test but decided against it.

And that’s their problem. I don’t doubt UC admissions when they say they have data on each high school spanning decades. Developing their own test means an ability to accurately assess where the skill gaps remain in California public schools and having a quantifiable way to make recommendations rather than throwing out “x% of students failed and aren’t ready.”

Gaps will always exist, because income isn’t uniform across racial lines. We need to get past the inequality part and start solutions. The SAT is alright- it really leaves a lot to be desired in terms of rigor and substance over form.

It's more than income. Black students from the highest earning families score about the same as white students from the lowest earning families on the SAT. If you waved a magic wand and blew away the racial income gap, the SAT gap would narrow slightly but not disappear. The problem is more intractable than most people realize.

When affirmative action was around, liberals tended to support it because they were in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured it was just a small thumb on the scale. Conservatives tended to oppose it because they were also in denial about how big the gaps actually were, and figured URMs could just work a little harder to pull themselves up by their bootstraps. Both were wrong, and the UC system is finding out the hard way.

There’s a lot of research showing that these gaps close when you have the white and black student in the same school. The gap explains a difference in choices by upper middle class black and white parents, not an inherent gap by race (which would imply black people are dumber).

One can spout all day about how these issues are cultural, but I find this unproductive and divisive. Everyone of every income level can do calculus I, as long as their brains aren’t pan fried by some intellectual disability. Learning algebra isn’t unique to white and Asian people; it’s something we should all feel comfortable doing, but don’t because we’ve been fed divisive lies about ability, talent, and yes victimhood.
-black person whose major required calculus in every course.

+1. Reminds me of a talk I went to by Glenn Loury

The only message conservatives have figured out to tell the black mother living off food assistant and public housing is “BE ASIAN! BE JEWISH”…are you serious? No wonder they hate you

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Math is the only subject that has this massive genius expectation. It’s the only subject where people are constantly trying to push students to the maximum and accelerate them. Imagine how much better our country would be if we put 1/10th of this energy into science education.

Or reading/writing.

It's a stupid race to nowhere.

+1, can we get kids who understand statistics and history? This obsession with 2 subjects that are tested to death and the emphasis of your entire k-12 education is crowding out that there’s more to life than taking Linear Algebra in high school.

Forget linear alg in HS. Some of these kids can barely do Alg 1.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"For example, for three consecutive year, 20-30% of UC Berkeley first-semester calculus students who participated in mathematical diagnostic testing displayed severe[b][u] preparation deficits."

Ouch.

How is this going to be fixed by SAT scores if it is the HS math instruction that sucks?

Most likely by admitting fewer unprepared students. Right now UC's admit by high school. The lower SES, URM high schools have the same admissions chances as high performing ones. Presumably the SAT will provide cover to deviate from this and pick more Asian and white students.

This sounds like a lot of extrapolation. The professors aren’t interested in picking and choosing demographics for their classes. They just want students entering Calc 2 who have actually taken and performed, as expected by exams, well in calc 1. Berkeley has an institutional mission to give opportunity to a wide population of California residents, not just the Bay Area and SoCal elites.

What’s really happening is professors do not have the levers necessary to improve the k-12 system, so the only tool they do have is the one standardized exam.

What's really happening is that they can't use affirmative-action so they can't admit as many URM as they want without eliminating tests.