Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My understanding is that she was extremely late to the airstrip because she spent a couple of hours at the nail salon having the paint color redone several times to match her outfit for the rehearsal dinner.
By the time she finally arrived, it was dark already. They should have just skipped the dinner and waited until the next day to fly to the wedding but he thought they could still arrive in time for dinner even though he had not yet achieved the level of flying by instrument panel. There is no horizon in the darkness. They probably had no idea that they were heading into the water.
Both parties were daft. This is why his mother prohibited him from pursuing flying small aircrafts while she was alive. She understood something about his lack of judgement.

I think any pilot would tell you that it has absolutely nothing to do with her nails. He was the pilot. It’s on him completely. He killed them all with obvious negligence. It would probably be criminal if he had somehow survived.

His plan was to drop Lauren at MV and then he and Carolyn would continue onto Hyannis Port. He turned down a flight instructor who offered to accompany them that afternoon due to the dark/weather. It just seemed like a very ambitious flight plan given his lack of experience, the night, and the hazy weather. A totally preventable tragedy. Their poor families.

I'm sure they'll never say but I'd love to know what the girls' mother and surviving sister think of him. I also thought it was a little odd that Jack Schlossberg only mentioned John not Carolyn in his recent comments.

I would guess that the Bessettes and Kennedys who signed the monetary settlement had to agree never to publicly discuss their relationship or accident. Jack wouldn't have been a party to that agreement, but the wider Kennedy family has probably all agreed not to discuss Carolyn publicly.

And clearly there was a rift between the families. No amount of money will atone for the loss of their daughters, and their treatment in the aftermath. The Kennedys don't seem the type to make any effort to atone beyond the money, and I'm quite sure would have made every effort to get out of that if they had a leg to stand on.

How did the Keneddys treat the Besettes in the aftermath?

Some details from RFK Jr diaries:

The bickering over the bodies began the next day, July 18, before they were even recovered.

The Bessette family was “very upset” about where the trio would be buried, with the girls’ mother preferring a plot in Greenwich, Conn., close to her home.

“Ann wants them close by and is terrified that the K family might try to spirit them to Brookline,” Kennedy writes.

The Holyhood Cemetery in Brookline is the resting place of Joseph and Rose Kennedy, the family patriarch and matriarch.

After more frantic phone calls, Kennedy says a meeting in New York City was arranged with Ann Freeman and Caroline Kennedy. Instead, Kennedy sent her husband, Ed Schlossberg, along with Vicky Reggie, Ted Kennedy’s wife, RFK Jr. notes.

“All the Bessette family knows that Ed hated Carolyn and did everything in his power to make her life miserable and . . . he bullied, bullied, bullied the shattered grieving mother,” he writes.

That's so gross. Par for the course though. I have no idea why anyone admires that family.

Anonymous wrote:Can someone explain why pilots are allowed to fly at night if they aren't instrument certified, or whatever the right term is. If you're flying over the ocean or in bad weather, how can you rely on visual cues at night? Are accidents like this rare?

They’re fairly rare because generally people have more common sense and listen to the rules and their instructors and weather guidance (weather was bad that night, other pilots with more experience were not flying and he knew that).

Anonymous wrote:He was always a womanizer, even if he made an effort to tamp it down in the early years of his marriage. Someone made a timeline, with another poster responding there were a lot more 'one-offs' that needed to be added.

In 1991 John dated Daryl. Julie, and possibly Carolyn

In 1992 John dated Julie, Daryl, and Carolyn.

In 1993 John dated Daryl and Carolyn

In 1994, John dated Daryl, Carolyn, Julie, and had a one night stand with a porn star.

In 1995 John dated Carolyn, but 'kept in touch with Julie."

In 1996 John and Carolyn become engaged, then married. John stays in touch with Julie

In summer 1998, John is seeing Julie again according to her friend circle. John is married to Carolyn.

In fall 1998 Carolyn begins her emotional affair.

In Winter 1998- 1999 Carolyn stops sleeping with John.

In July 1999, Julie Baker is seen late at night and again at breakfast with John at the Stanhope Hotel.

When did he date Christina Haag?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He was always a womanizer, even if he made an effort to tamp it down in the early years of his marriage. Someone made a timeline, with another poster responding there were a lot more 'one-offs' that needed to be added.

In 1991 John dated Daryl. Julie, and possibly Carolyn

In 1992 John dated Julie, Daryl, and Carolyn.

In 1993 John dated Daryl and Carolyn

In 1994, John dated Daryl, Carolyn, Julie, and had a one night stand with a porn star.

In 1995 John dated Carolyn, but 'kept in touch with Julie."

In 1996 John and Carolyn become engaged, then married. John stays in touch with Julie

In summer 1998, John is seeing Julie again according to her friend circle. John is married to Carolyn.

In fall 1998 Carolyn begins her emotional affair.

In Winter 1998- 1999 Carolyn stops sleeping with John.

In July 1999, Julie Baker is seen late at night and again at breakfast with John at the Stanhope Hotel.

Sometime before George magazine cover shoot at offices of George -
John: "Hi, I'm John"
Cindy: "Hi, I'm Cindy".
Publishing assistant: Huge eyeroll

I kinda doubt it. Cindy Crawford has always been known as intelligent and very professional. There's no way she would be sloppy enough to get involved with JFK Jr.

CC's kids are a mess.

Her daughter works as a model and moderates a book club for fans.

Her son has been open that he has significant mental health struggles.

I don't doubt that the kids grew up with privilege most of us can't even imagine, but I wouldn't say they are both messes!

Anyway, I wasn't aware of the rumor that CC briefly dated JFK Jr. That surprises me. She had a squeaky clean image compared to many others in the modeling industry at the time.

Anonymous wrote:Poor guy can't even find peace in death. Sad.

Sad that PP is “really excited ” about watching their tragedy replayed.

These are real people you understand…

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My understanding is that she was extremely late to the airstrip because she spent a couple of hours at the nail salon having the paint color redone several times to match her outfit for the rehearsal dinner.
By the time she finally arrived, it was dark already. They should have just skipped the dinner and waited until the next day to fly to the wedding but he thought they could still arrive in time for dinner even though he had not yet achieved the level of flying by instrument panel. There is no horizon in the darkness. They probably had no idea that they were heading into the water.
Both parties were daft. This is why his mother prohibited him from pursuing flying small aircrafts while she was alive. She understood something about his lack of judgement.

I think any pilot would tell you that it has absolutely nothing to do with her nails. He was the pilot. It’s on him completely. He killed them all with obvious negligence. It would probably be criminal if he had somehow survived.

His plan was to drop Lauren at MV and then he and Carolyn would continue onto Hyannis Port. He turned down a flight instructor who offered to accompany them that afternoon due to the dark/weather. It just seemed like a very ambitious flight plan given his lack of experience, the night, and the hazy weather. A totally preventable tragedy. Their poor families.

I'm sure they'll never say but I'd love to know what the girls' mother and surviving sister think of him. I also thought it was a little odd that Jack Schlossberg only mentioned John not Carolyn in his recent comments.

I would guess that the Bessettes and Kennedys who signed the monetary settlement had to agree never to publicly discuss their relationship or accident. Jack wouldn't have been a party to that agreement, but the wider Kennedy family has probably all agreed not to discuss Carolyn publicly.

And clearly there was a rift between the families. No amount of money will atone for the loss of their daughters, and their treatment in the aftermath. The Kennedys don't seem the type to make any effort to atone beyond the money, and I'm quite sure would have made every effort to get out of that if they had a leg to stand on.

How did the Keneddys treat the Besettes in the aftermath?

Some details from RFK Jr diaries:

The bickering over the bodies began the next day, July 18, before they were even recovered.

The Bessette family was “very upset” about where the trio would be buried, with the girls’ mother preferring a plot in Greenwich, Conn., close to her home.

“Ann wants them close by and is terrified that the K family might try to spirit them to Brookline,” Kennedy writes.

The Holyhood Cemetery in Brookline is the resting place of Joseph and Rose Kennedy, the family patriarch and matriarch.

After more frantic phone calls, Kennedy says a meeting in New York City was arranged with Ann Freeman and Caroline Kennedy. Instead, Kennedy sent her husband, Ed Schlossberg, along with Vicky Reggie, Ted Kennedy’s wife, RFK Jr. notes.

“All the Bessette family knows that Ed hated Carolyn and did everything in his power to make her life miserable and . . . he bullied, bullied, bullied the shattered grieving mother,” he writes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My understanding is that she was extremely late to the airstrip because she spent a couple of hours at the nail salon having the paint color redone several times to match her outfit for the rehearsal dinner.
By the time she finally arrived, it was dark already. They should have just skipped the dinner and waited until the next day to fly to the wedding but he thought they could still arrive in time for dinner even though he had not yet achieved the level of flying by instrument panel. There is no horizon in the darkness. They probably had no idea that they were heading into the water.
Both parties were daft. This is why his mother prohibited him from pursuing flying small aircrafts while she was alive. She understood something about his lack of judgement.

I think any pilot would tell you that it has absolutely nothing to do with her nails. He was the pilot. It’s on him completely. He killed them all with obvious negligence. It would probably be criminal if he had somehow survived.

His plan was to drop Lauren at MV and then he and Carolyn would continue onto Hyannis Port. He turned down a flight instructor who offered to accompany them that afternoon due to the dark/weather. It just seemed like a very ambitious flight plan given his lack of experience, the night, and the hazy weather. A totally preventable tragedy. Their poor families.

I'm sure they'll never say but I'd love to know what the girls' mother and surviving sister think of him. I also thought it was a little odd that Jack Schlossberg only mentioned John not Carolyn in his recent comments.

I would guess that the Bessettes and Kennedys who signed the monetary settlement had to agree never to publicly discuss their relationship or accident. Jack wouldn't have been a party to that agreement, but the wider Kennedy family has probably all agreed not to discuss Carolyn publicly.

And clearly there was a rift between the families. No amount of money will atone for the loss of their daughters, and their treatment in the aftermath. The Kennedys don't seem the type to make any effort to atone beyond the money, and I'm quite sure would have made every effort to get out of that if they had a leg to stand on.

How did the Keneddys treat the Besettes in the aftermath?

Following the 1999 plane crash, the Kennedy family, particularly through Ed Schlossberg (husband of Caroline), reportedly treated the Bessette family with hostility and exclusion, focusing heavily on honoring only John Jr. in the Holyhood Cemetery in Brookline. While publicly acknowledging the loss, private tensions arose over burial plans, with the Kennedys initially indicating they could do what they pleased with Carolyn's remains.
Key details regarding the aftermath include:
Conflict Over Burial: The Kennedy family wanted to separate the burial arrangements, with Carolyn's mother, Anne Freeman, initially fearing her daughter would not be treated with the same respect as a Kennedy.
Aggressive Treatment: According to RFK Jr.'s diaries, Ed Schlossberg "bullied" Carolyn’s mother, Anne Freeman, during discussions about the funeral.
Eulogy Restrictions: Reports indicate that a Kennedy family member stated, "Kennedys don't eulogize non-Kennedys," which was used to limit the involvement of the Bessette family in the memorial services.
Legal Action: The tension led to a wrongful-death lawsuit filed by the Bessette family against the Kennedy estate, which was settled in 2001 for a reported $15 million.
Final Arrangements: Despite the initial conflict, both Carolyn and her sister Lauren were cremated and buried at sea in a combined ceremony.

Can someone explain why pilots are allowed to fly at night if they aren't instrument certified, or whatever the right term is. If you're flying over the ocean or in bad weather, how can you rely on visual cues at night? Are accidents like this rare?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My understanding is that she was extremely late to the airstrip because she spent a couple of hours at the nail salon having the paint color redone several times to match her outfit for the rehearsal dinner.
By the time she finally arrived, it was dark already. They should have just skipped the dinner and waited until the next day to fly to the wedding but he thought they could still arrive in time for dinner even though he had not yet achieved the level of flying by instrument panel. There is no horizon in the darkness. They probably had no idea that they were heading into the water.
Both parties were daft. This is why his mother prohibited him from pursuing flying small aircrafts while she was alive. She understood something about his lack of judgement.

I think any pilot would tell you that it has absolutely nothing to do with her nails. He was the pilot. It’s on him completely. He killed them all with obvious negligence. It would probably be criminal if he had somehow survived.

His plan was to drop Lauren at MV and then he and Carolyn would continue onto Hyannis Port. He turned down a flight instructor who offered to accompany them that afternoon due to the dark/weather. It just seemed like a very ambitious flight plan given his lack of experience, the night, and the hazy weather. A totally preventable tragedy. Their poor families.

I'm sure they'll never say but I'd love to know what the girls' mother and surviving sister think of him. I also thought it was a little odd that Jack Schlossberg only mentioned John not Carolyn in his recent comments.

I would guess that the Bessettes and Kennedys who signed the monetary settlement had to agree never to publicly discuss their relationship or accident. Jack wouldn't have been a party to that agreement, but the wider Kennedy family has probably all agreed not to discuss Carolyn publicly.

And clearly there was a rift between the families. No amount of money will atone for the loss of their daughters, and their treatment in the aftermath. The Kennedys don't seem the type to make any effort to atone beyond the money, and I'm quite sure would have made every effort to get out of that if they had a leg to stand on.

How did the Keneddys treat the Besettes in the aftermath?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He was always a womanizer, even if he made an effort to tamp it down in the early years of his marriage. Someone made a timeline, with another poster responding there were a lot more 'one-offs' that needed to be added.

In 1991 John dated Daryl. Julie, and possibly Carolyn

In 1992 John dated Julie, Daryl, and Carolyn.

In 1993 John dated Daryl and Carolyn

In 1994, John dated Daryl, Carolyn, Julie, and had a one night stand with a porn star.

In 1995 John dated Carolyn, but 'kept in touch with Julie."

In 1996 John and Carolyn become engaged, then married. John stays in touch with Julie

In summer 1998, John is seeing Julie again according to her friend circle. John is married to Carolyn.

In fall 1998 Carolyn begins her emotional affair.

In Winter 1998- 1999 Carolyn stops sleeping with John.

In July 1999, Julie Baker is seen late at night and again at breakfast with John at the Stanhope Hotel.

Sometime before George magazine cover shoot at offices of George -
John: "Hi, I'm John"
Cindy: "Hi, I'm Cindy".
Publishing assistant: Huge eyeroll

I kinda doubt it. Cindy Crawford has always been known as intelligent and very professional. There's no way she would be sloppy enough to get involved with JFK Jr.

Rumor has it they dated briefly after she and Richard Gere separated. Would hardly be surprising with his rep. Must have been a real headf**k knowing you could have any woman you wanted. Apparently he was reasonably nice, all things considered. But he epitomized the truism of men only being as faithful as their options. Carolyn knew whom she married. This dumb show can put a glossy spin on their romance but he was never faithful for long and she was his plan B for quite a while.

I don't think either one was faithful. Kind of like his parents' marriage. Nobody was faithful.

Agreed. But I think she cheated when she was feeling insecure in the relationship, and he cheated because he was entitled and wanted to. Although there was a lot of passion between them, I highly doubt the marriage would have lasted. Even if they did move out of the city and had kids, she would never be able to trust his whereabouts. I don't think they were mature enough to come to an agreement about ethical non-monogamy. She felt too insecure, and had too bourgeoise a background for that. And if she continued to refuse to have kids, he definitely would have divorced her. That was a non-negotiable.

She would have had a lot more privacy if they had simply moved into a palatial apartment with good security and an underground garage. Staying in the Tribeca apartment was a mistake, who cares if he preferred it. Maybe they would have had a chance with different logistics like that, but no way with her languishing in the suburbs while he did whatever in the city. I also think she needed something more meaningful to occupy her time. She could have been a guest editor for Vogue and did more charity work related to children. She needed to not have her life revolve around the prince.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He was always a womanizer, even if he made an effort to tamp it down in the early years of his marriage. Someone made a timeline, with another poster responding there were a lot more 'one-offs' that needed to be added.

In 1991 John dated Daryl. Julie, and possibly Carolyn

In 1992 John dated Julie, Daryl, and Carolyn.

In 1993 John dated Daryl and Carolyn

In 1994, John dated Daryl, Carolyn, Julie, and had a one night stand with a porn star.

In 1995 John dated Carolyn, but 'kept in touch with Julie."

In 1996 John and Carolyn become engaged, then married. John stays in touch with Julie

In summer 1998, John is seeing Julie again according to her friend circle. John is married to Carolyn.

In fall 1998 Carolyn begins her emotional affair.

In Winter 1998- 1999 Carolyn stops sleeping with John.

In July 1999, Julie Baker is seen late at night and again at breakfast with John at the Stanhope Hotel.

Sometime before George magazine cover shoot at offices of George -
John: "Hi, I'm John"
Cindy: "Hi, I'm Cindy".
Publishing assistant: Huge eyeroll

I kinda doubt it. Cindy Crawford has always been known as intelligent and very professional. There's no way she would be sloppy enough to get involved with JFK Jr.

Rumor has it they dated briefly after she and Richard Gere separated. Would hardly be surprising with his rep. Must have been a real headf**k knowing you could have any woman you wanted. Apparently he was reasonably nice, all things considered. But he epitomized the truism of men only being as faithful as their options. Carolyn knew whom she married. This dumb show can put a glossy spin on their romance but he was never faithful for long and she was his plan B for quite a while.

I don't think either one was faithful. Kind of like his parents' marriage. Nobody was faithful.

Agreed. But I think she cheated when she was feeling insecure in the relationship, and he cheated because he was entitled and wanted to. Although there was a lot of passion between them, I highly doubt the marriage would have lasted. Even if they did move out of the city and had kids, she would never be able to trust his whereabouts. I don't think they were mature enough to come to an agreement about ethical non-monogamy. She felt too insecure, and had too bourgeoise a background for that. And if she continued to refuse to have kids, he definitely would have divorced her. That was a non-negotiable.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He was always a womanizer, even if he made an effort to tamp it down in the early years of his marriage. Someone made a timeline, with another poster responding there were a lot more 'one-offs' that needed to be added.

In 1991 John dated Daryl. Julie, and possibly Carolyn

In 1992 John dated Julie, Daryl, and Carolyn.

In 1993 John dated Daryl and Carolyn

In 1994, John dated Daryl, Carolyn, Julie, and had a one night stand with a porn star.

In 1995 John dated Carolyn, but 'kept in touch with Julie."

In 1996 John and Carolyn become engaged, then married. John stays in touch with Julie

In summer 1998, John is seeing Julie again according to her friend circle. John is married to Carolyn.

In fall 1998 Carolyn begins her emotional affair.

In Winter 1998- 1999 Carolyn stops sleeping with John.

In July 1999, Julie Baker is seen late at night and again at breakfast with John at the Stanhope Hotel.

Sometime before George magazine cover shoot at offices of George -
John: "Hi, I'm John"
Cindy: "Hi, I'm Cindy".
Publishing assistant: Huge eyeroll

I kinda doubt it. Cindy Crawford has always been known as intelligent and very professional. There's no way she would be sloppy enough to get involved with JFK Jr.

Rumor has it they dated briefly after she and Richard Gere separated. Would hardly be surprising with his rep. Must have been a real headf**k knowing you could have any woman you wanted. Apparently he was reasonably nice, all things considered. But he epitomized the truism of men only being as faithful as their options. Carolyn knew whom she married. This dumb show can put a glossy spin on their romance but he was never faithful for long and she was his plan B for quite a while.

I don't think either one was faithful. Kind of like his parents' marriage. Nobody was faithful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He was always a womanizer, even if he made an effort to tamp it down in the early years of his marriage. Someone made a timeline, with another poster responding there were a lot more 'one-offs' that needed to be added.

In 1991 John dated Daryl. Julie, and possibly Carolyn

In 1992 John dated Julie, Daryl, and Carolyn.

In 1993 John dated Daryl and Carolyn

In 1994, John dated Daryl, Carolyn, Julie, and had a one night stand with a porn star.

In 1995 John dated Carolyn, but 'kept in touch with Julie."

In 1996 John and Carolyn become engaged, then married. John stays in touch with Julie

In summer 1998, John is seeing Julie again according to her friend circle. John is married to Carolyn.

In fall 1998 Carolyn begins her emotional affair.

In Winter 1998- 1999 Carolyn stops sleeping with John.

In July 1999, Julie Baker is seen late at night and again at breakfast with John at the Stanhope Hotel.

Sometime before George magazine cover shoot at offices of George -
John: "Hi, I'm John"
Cindy: "Hi, I'm Cindy".
Publishing assistant: Huge eyeroll

I kinda doubt it. Cindy Crawford has always been known as intelligent and very professional. There's no way she would be sloppy enough to get involved with JFK Jr.

Rumor has it they dated briefly after she and Richard Gere separated. Would hardly be surprising with his rep. Must have been a real headf**k knowing you could have any woman you wanted. Apparently he was reasonably nice, all things considered. But he epitomized the truism of men only being as faithful as their options. Carolyn knew whom she married. This dumb show can put a glossy spin on their romance but he was never faithful for long and she was his plan B for quite a while.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He was always a womanizer, even if he made an effort to tamp it down in the early years of his marriage. Someone made a timeline, with another poster responding there were a lot more 'one-offs' that needed to be added.

In 1991 John dated Daryl. Julie, and possibly Carolyn

In 1992 John dated Julie, Daryl, and Carolyn.

In 1993 John dated Daryl and Carolyn

In 1994, John dated Daryl, Carolyn, Julie, and had a one night stand with a porn star.

In 1995 John dated Carolyn, but 'kept in touch with Julie."

In 1996 John and Carolyn become engaged, then married. John stays in touch with Julie

In summer 1998, John is seeing Julie again according to her friend circle. John is married to Carolyn.

In fall 1998 Carolyn begins her emotional affair.

In Winter 1998- 1999 Carolyn stops sleeping with John.

In July 1999, Julie Baker is seen late at night and again at breakfast with John at the Stanhope Hotel.

Sometime before George magazine cover shoot at offices of George -
John: "Hi, I'm John"
Cindy: "Hi, I'm Cindy".
Publishing assistant: Huge eyeroll

I kinda doubt it. Cindy Crawford has always been known as intelligent and very professional. There's no way she would be sloppy enough to get involved with JFK Jr.

CC's kids are a mess.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It was not a love story.

Can you elaborate on this?

NP. They fought a lot and his hubris resulted in her death and sibling's death.

They should not have been flying. No doubt about that. She was a really bad person. Cheated on him regularly.