Anonymous
06/22/2025 17:39
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
I love how all of this is just occurring to those of you in your 30s with young kids, not realizing that the generations before you have been trying to have it all for decades. We have been balancing all of this for years. Many of your moms did this; you just did not realize it. None of what you are feeling or experiencing is new.
Anonymous
06/22/2025 17:39
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:When I was in divorce support groups the women were mostly stay at home women or women in fields that didn't make much. It was obvious the men were abusing their relationship and felt like they could because in their eyes the women didn't contribute much and didn't have a lot of choices.
Since adultery isnt a crime nor is verbal abuse nor is using money made for non family activities, you find a lot of marriages that have to put up with these things or have divorces initiated to break away from these things because there is no law to protect someone from this.
The marriages that I see that last are the ones with decent guys to begin with who care about their reputation, make decent money, and genuinely like their spouse and women who are able to still look good through the years and make the household run smoothly. This or a marriages where it's clear anything goes.
I have no doubt that you are speaking the truth based on your experience, but your experience from a divorce support group is not representative of the experience of all SAHMs. It’s a snapshot of the experiences of some divorced SAHMs, but since the divorce rate for educated women over 30 hovers at around 16%, it is not representative.
Personal ancedotes aren’t conclusive evidence. My personal anecdote is that is my large and sprawling family there are a lot of happy working mothers and happy SAHMs. There are also women who switch between groups. None are divorced or have cheating or abusive husbands (all are UMC and educated). Sure there are some who
quit work and didn’t like being at home so they returned to work, but not all working mothers are happy with their lot. Some are super stressed trying to juggle work and family, feel like they aren’t doing a great job in either role, have anxiety, don’t get enough sleep, have no free time, and wish they could quit. Juggling it all takes a toll on their mental and physical health and relationships.
I debated posting again (I’m the PP with a sister who is a SAHM) but the sketches others are drawing of SAHMs are caricatures and since I love the SAHMs in my life, I hate reading them.
All women are not the same and do not want the same things from life. All men are not abusive. Women weigh risks differently and place different values on money, career, time spent with children, and quality of life. There isn’t only one way to have a happy and successful life.
Right, but the problem lies when politicians and people in charge want to MAKE women more reliant on men by restricting birth control etc. The premise that “women weigh risks differently and place different values on…” is predicated on the idea that women CAN make those choices and it feels like many (not in this thread, but in politics and the USA) are advocating for LESS choices for women. That is why people are reacting the way they are on this thread.
Anonymous
06/22/2025 16:51
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
Anonymous wrote:When I was in divorce support groups the women were mostly stay at home women or women in fields that didn't make much. It was obvious the men were abusing their relationship and felt like they could because in their eyes the women didn't contribute much and didn't have a lot of choices.
Since adultery isnt a crime nor is verbal abuse nor is using money made for non family activities, you find a lot of marriages that have to put up with these things or have divorces initiated to break away from these things because there is no law to protect someone from this.
The marriages that I see that last are the ones with decent guys to begin with who care about their reputation, make decent money, and genuinely like their spouse and women who are able to still look good through the years and make the household run smoothly. This or a marriages where it's clear anything goes.
I have no doubt that you are speaking the truth based on your experience, but your experience from a divorce support group is not representative of the experience of all SAHMs. It’s a snapshot of the experiences of some divorced SAHMs, but since the divorce rate for educated women over 30 hovers at around 16%, it is not representative.
Personal ancedotes aren’t conclusive evidence. My personal anecdote is that is my large and sprawling family there are a lot of happy working mothers and happy SAHMs. There are also women who switch between groups. None are divorced or have cheating or abusive husbands (all are UMC and educated). Sure there are some who
quit work and didn’t like being at home so they returned to work, but not all working mothers are happy with their lot. Some are super stressed trying to juggle work and family, feel like they aren’t doing a great job in either role, have anxiety, don’t get enough sleep, have no free time, and wish they could quit. Juggling it all takes a toll on their mental and physical health and relationships.
I debated posting again (I’m the PP with a sister who is a SAHM) but the sketches others are drawing of SAHMs are caricatures and since I love the SAHMs in my life, I hate reading them.
All women are not the same and do not want the same things from life. All men are not abusive. Women weigh risks differently and place different values on money, career, time spent with children, and quality of life. There isn’t only one way to have a happy and successful life.
Anonymous
06/22/2025 06:19
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
When I was in divorce support groups the women were mostly stay at home women or women in fields that didn't make much. It was obvious the men were abusing their relationship and felt like they could because in their eyes the women didn't contribute much and didn't have a lot of choices.
Since adultery isnt a crime nor is verbal abuse nor is using money made for non family activities, you find a lot of marriages that have to put up with these things or have divorces initiated to break away from these things because there is no law to protect someone from this.
The marriages that I see that last are the ones with decent guys to begin with who care about their reputation, make decent money, and genuinely like their spouse and women who are able to still look good through the years and make the household run smoothly. This or a marriages where it's clear anything goes.
Since adultery isnt a crime nor is verbal abuse nor is using money made for non family activities, you find a lot of marriages that have to put up with these things or have divorces initiated to break away from these things because there is no law to protect someone from this.
The marriages that I see that last are the ones with decent guys to begin with who care about their reputation, make decent money, and genuinely like their spouse and women who are able to still look good through the years and make the household run smoothly. This or a marriages where it's clear anything goes.
Anonymous
06/21/2025 20:27
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:What countries with these policies have sustained d a replacement rate or having an increasing birth rate? Trump administration one did 12 week parental leave for federal employees. Not sure where your argument fits in that they have targeted families specifically in other ways fits.
Answer: none. And many/most European countries have struggling economies, which are at least partially the result of low worker productivity.
+100000 unfortunately this is true.
Most any country where women have good options and access to birth control has declining birth rates…..
Anonymous
06/21/2025 16:34
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People who say they work in case their husband divorces them or dies.
My friend married since 2006 to his wife who actually was so anxious to be a stay at home quit work while they were engaged to help plan wedding and she moved in. Well since then they bought a new home worth now around 3 million. Have two cars, I know my friend who makes around 500K has made almost 10 million in salary during marriage. And he goes max 401k and does IRA for her and has 529s fully funded all three kids. Since marriage greater than 10 years she gets his SS. In divorce she is entitled to 1/2 at this point, plus alimony, child support and if he drops dead she gets it all plus his multimillion life insurance policy.
Why would she need to work? Do you really think her making 100K a year is even going to matter. She did not have a big job. At his age he has around 10 million invested he makes around 1-2 million a year just on dividends, interest and capital gains a lot of years.
I don’t know…there is a divorce with one of the Pritkers who has a net worth of several billion but it looks the wife will only end up with $10MM…all sorts of tricks you can employ to screw your spouse if you want including moving your assets into trusts and what not.
Sounds like the wife above isn’t super savvy…not to mention the person with lots of money can decide to just spend down the $$$s on lawyers if the divorce is acrimonious. It’s crazy what lengths people will go to screw over a spouse.
Except there is a saying "women have to pick a horse and ride it" In my spouses network it is all nurses, marketing majors, teachers, office worker jobs. The women all graduated average colleges with average degrees. All were pretty and nice. None had parents with money. Most parents had a HS education or were immigrants themselves and lived in small little houses. But a man in his late 20s or early 30s he is looking for exactly that. A women to be a Mom as men have biological clocks too. They weirdly and oddly even though they are business people them selves shy away from business women.
Now pick the horse and ride them. These women wont be able to marry a already rich guy, a guy from a rich family, a guy from a fancy school or grew up fancy neighborhood. Guess that the man wont be able to either.
However, the good looking six foot two inch white guy who is very nice and down to earth who is doing MBA part time or just got it who is 28 who just made AVP at a bank, just made Manager at Big Four, just got his stock broker license who is hardworking with proper molding and a women behind the scenes can like Hillary got Bill to President can make it happen. I have seen it time and time and time again.
And divorce. You girls crack me up. That Labrador of a husband she pushed out door each morning with a kiss on a check and a cup of coffee. He is useless without her. Who is he taken office holiday party, his wife at events is all friendly the other exec wives, she gives him the advice, she manages the money. She has control of house and kids and talks to his mom and sends the cards out and makes him look good. The kids all love Mom she is one home taking them places, cooking, going on class trips in divorce they side with her. Do you really think he has a powerfull attorney and a plot to take the money. He does not even know where the money is.
You live in a fantasy world. Husbands f**k over SAHM moms all the time because they may pay the bills out of one account, but he is shifting tons of $$$s into another account or convincing her to transfer assets into trusts.
He doesn’t give a shit about whether the kids like him or not or if she talks to his mom. If anything he wonders why I married the “help”.
Remember, they usually aren’t getting divorced because we just grew apart…it’s because he is trading her in for a hotter, younger woman.
You seem convinced that the overweight 55 year old dad who made 1/2 of my income won’t trade me for a young woman, it’s just he can’t 😌
You don’t sound like a SAHM…so doesn’t seem to apply.
Anonymous
06/21/2025 15:19
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People who say they work in case their husband divorces them or dies.
My friend married since 2006 to his wife who actually was so anxious to be a stay at home quit work while they were engaged to help plan wedding and she moved in. Well since then they bought a new home worth now around 3 million. Have two cars, I know my friend who makes around 500K has made almost 10 million in salary during marriage. And he goes max 401k and does IRA for her and has 529s fully funded all three kids. Since marriage greater than 10 years she gets his SS. In divorce she is entitled to 1/2 at this point, plus alimony, child support and if he drops dead she gets it all plus his multimillion life insurance policy.
Why would she need to work? Do you really think her making 100K a year is even going to matter. She did not have a big job. At his age he has around 10 million invested he makes around 1-2 million a year just on dividends, interest and capital gains a lot of years.
I don’t know…there is a divorce with one of the Pritkers who has a net worth of several billion but it looks the wife will only end up with $10MM…all sorts of tricks you can employ to screw your spouse if you want including moving your assets into trusts and what not.
Sounds like the wife above isn’t super savvy…not to mention the person with lots of money can decide to just spend down the $$$s on lawyers if the divorce is acrimonious. It’s crazy what lengths people will go to screw over a spouse.
Except there is a saying "women have to pick a horse and ride it" In my spouses network it is all nurses, marketing majors, teachers, office worker jobs. The women all graduated average colleges with average degrees. All were pretty and nice. None had parents with money. Most parents had a HS education or were immigrants themselves and lived in small little houses. But a man in his late 20s or early 30s he is looking for exactly that. A women to be a Mom as men have biological clocks too. They weirdly and oddly even though they are business people them selves shy away from business women.
Now pick the horse and ride them. These women wont be able to marry a already rich guy, a guy from a rich family, a guy from a fancy school or grew up fancy neighborhood. Guess that the man wont be able to either.
However, the good looking six foot two inch white guy who is very nice and down to earth who is doing MBA part time or just got it who is 28 who just made AVP at a bank, just made Manager at Big Four, just got his stock broker license who is hardworking with proper molding and a women behind the scenes can like Hillary got Bill to President can make it happen. I have seen it time and time and time again.
And divorce. You girls crack me up. That Labrador of a husband she pushed out door each morning with a kiss on a check and a cup of coffee. He is useless without her. Who is he taken office holiday party, his wife at events is all friendly the other exec wives, she gives him the advice, she manages the money. She has control of house and kids and talks to his mom and sends the cards out and makes him look good. The kids all love Mom she is one home taking them places, cooking, going on class trips in divorce they side with her. Do you really think he has a powerfull attorney and a plot to take the money. He does not even know where the money is.
You live in a fantasy world. Husbands f**k over SAHM moms all the time because they may pay the bills out of one account, but he is shifting tons of $$$s into another account or convincing her to transfer assets into trusts.
He doesn’t give a shit about whether the kids like him or not or if she talks to his mom. If anything he wonders why I married the “help”.
Remember, they usually aren’t getting divorced because we just grew apart…it’s because he is trading her in for a hotter, younger woman.
You seem convinced that the overweight 55 year old dad who made 1/2 of my income won’t trade me for a young woman, it’s just he can’t 😌
Anonymous
06/21/2025 15:09
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
The highly educated have low divorce rates.
It is the low income and people with low education levels that have a high divorce rate.
It is the low income and people with low education levels that have a high divorce rate.
Anonymous
06/21/2025 13:27
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People who say they work in case their husband divorces them or dies.
My friend married since 2006 to his wife who actually was so anxious to be a stay at home quit work while they were engaged to help plan wedding and she moved in. Well since then they bought a new home worth now around 3 million. Have two cars, I know my friend who makes around 500K has made almost 10 million in salary during marriage. And he goes max 401k and does IRA for her and has 529s fully funded all three kids. Since marriage greater than 10 years she gets his SS. In divorce she is entitled to 1/2 at this point, plus alimony, child support and if he drops dead she gets it all plus his multimillion life insurance policy.
Why would she need to work? Do you really think her making 100K a year is even going to matter. She did not have a big job. At his age he has around 10 million invested he makes around 1-2 million a year just on dividends, interest and capital gains a lot of years.
I don’t know…there is a divorce with one of the Pritkers who has a net worth of several billion but it looks the wife will only end up with $10MM…all sorts of tricks you can employ to screw your spouse if you want including moving your assets into trusts and what not.
Sounds like the wife above isn’t super savvy…not to mention the person with lots of money can decide to just spend down the $$$s on lawyers if the divorce is acrimonious. It’s crazy what lengths people will go to screw over a spouse.
Except there is a saying "women have to pick a horse and ride it" In my spouses network it is all nurses, marketing majors, teachers, office worker jobs. The women all graduated average colleges with average degrees. All were pretty and nice. None had parents with money. Most parents had a HS education or were immigrants themselves and lived in small little houses. But a man in his late 20s or early 30s he is looking for exactly that. A women to be a Mom as men have biological clocks too. They weirdly and oddly even though they are business people them selves shy away from business women.
Now pick the horse and ride them. These women wont be able to marry a already rich guy, a guy from a rich family, a guy from a fancy school or grew up fancy neighborhood. Guess that the man wont be able to either.
However, the good looking six foot two inch white guy who is very nice and down to earth who is doing MBA part time or just got it who is 28 who just made AVP at a bank, just made Manager at Big Four, just got his stock broker license who is hardworking with proper molding and a women behind the scenes can like Hillary got Bill to President can make it happen. I have seen it time and time and time again.
And divorce. You girls crack me up. That Labrador of a husband she pushed out door each morning with a kiss on a check and a cup of coffee. He is useless without her. Who is he taken office holiday party, his wife at events is all friendly the other exec wives, she gives him the advice, she manages the money. She has control of house and kids and talks to his mom and sends the cards out and makes him look good. The kids all love Mom she is one home taking them places, cooking, going on class trips in divorce they side with her. Do you really think he has a powerfull attorney and a plot to take the money. He does not even know where the money is.
You live in a fantasy world. Husbands f**k over SAHM moms all the time because they may pay the bills out of one account, but he is shifting tons of $$$s into another account or convincing her to transfer assets into trusts.
He doesn’t give a shit about whether the kids like him or not or if she talks to his mom. If anything he wonders why I married the “help”.
Remember, they usually aren’t getting divorced because we just grew apart…it’s because he is trading her in for a hotter, younger woman.
Not advocating for or against SAHM, but just to inject some actual facts into the conversation, approximately 70% of divorces are initiated by women, which is why the Andrew Tates of the world think US divorce law is unfair. Also the current divorce rate for 30-55 year-old women is actually fairly low.
I’m also not sure why this thread is fixating on the super wealthy. 1 percenters are by definition only 1 percent of the population. Most SAHM aren’t married to the super wealthy.
All the families I know with SAHP’s divide household responsibilities differently. In some, it’s the SAHP that runs the finances. There isn’t any one way to be a SAHP. Just like couples with two working parents divide the work load differently.
There are pros and cons to being a SAHP, but there are also pros and cons to a dual income household. Each family should choose the model that works for them. Live and let live…
Anonymous
06/21/2025 13:22
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People who say they work in case their husband divorces them or dies.
My friend married since 2006 to his wife who actually was so anxious to be a stay at home quit work while they were engaged to help plan wedding and she moved in. Well since then they bought a new home worth now around 3 million. Have two cars, I know my friend who makes around 500K has made almost 10 million in salary during marriage. And he goes max 401k and does IRA for her and has 529s fully funded all three kids. Since marriage greater than 10 years she gets his SS. In divorce she is entitled to 1/2 at this point, plus alimony, child support and if he drops dead she gets it all plus his multimillion life insurance policy.
Why would she need to work? Do you really think her making 100K a year is even going to matter. She did not have a big job. At his age he has around 10 million invested he makes around 1-2 million a year just on dividends, interest and capital gains a lot of years.
I don’t know…there is a divorce with one of the Pritkers who has a net worth of several billion but it looks the wife will only end up with $10MM…all sorts of tricks you can employ to screw your spouse if you want including moving your assets into trusts and what not.
Sounds like the wife above isn’t super savvy…not to mention the person with lots of money can decide to just spend down the $$$s on lawyers if the divorce is acrimonious. It’s crazy what lengths people will go to screw over a spouse.
Except there is a saying "women have to pick a horse and ride it" In my spouses network it is all nurses, marketing majors, teachers, office worker jobs. The women all graduated average colleges with average degrees. All were pretty and nice. None had parents with money. Most parents had a HS education or were immigrants themselves and lived in small little houses. But a man in his late 20s or early 30s he is looking for exactly that. A women to be a Mom as men have biological clocks too. They weirdly and oddly even though they are business people them selves shy away from business women.
Now pick the horse and ride them. These women wont be able to marry a already rich guy, a guy from a rich family, a guy from a fancy school or grew up fancy neighborhood. Guess that the man wont be able to either.
However, the good looking six foot two inch white guy who is very nice and down to earth who is doing MBA part time or just got it who is 28 who just made AVP at a bank, just made Manager at Big Four, just got his stock broker license who is hardworking with proper molding and a women behind the scenes can like Hillary got Bill to President can make it happen. I have seen it time and time and time again.
And divorce. You girls crack me up. That Labrador of a husband she pushed out door each morning with a kiss on a check and a cup of coffee. He is useless without her. Who is he taken office holiday party, his wife at events is all friendly the other exec wives, she gives him the advice, she manages the money. She has control of house and kids and talks to his mom and sends the cards out and makes him look good. The kids all love Mom she is one home taking them places, cooking, going on class trips in divorce they side with her. Do you really think he has a powerfull attorney and a plot to take the money. He does not even know where the money is.
You live in a fantasy world. Husbands f**k over SAHM moms all the time because they may pay the bills out of one account, but he is shifting tons of $$$s into another account or convincing her to transfer assets into trusts.
He doesn’t give a shit about whether the kids like him or not or if she talks to his mom. If anything he wonders why I married the “help”.
Remember, they usually aren’t getting divorced because we just grew apart…it’s because he is trading her in for a hotter, younger woman.
Have you even known SAHMs? I knew plenty growing up and live in an affluent area now. First off, educated wealthy people don’t even get divorced that often. Regardless I’ve never met anyone who experienced what you’re describing. Doesn’t mean it can’t happen or doesn’t, but it certainly isn’t typical.
The more common scenario is a woman SAHs and thinks she made the better choice until she finds out she doesn’t have her own retirement account.
Anonymous
06/21/2025 13:20
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
Anonymous wrote:What countries with these policies have sustained d a replacement rate or having an increasing birth rate? Trump administration one did 12 week parental leave for federal employees. Not sure where your argument fits in that they have targeted families specifically in other ways fits.
Answer: none. And many/most European countries have struggling economies, which are at least partially the result of low worker productivity.
+100000 unfortunately this is true.
Anonymous
06/21/2025 13:13
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People who say they work in case their husband divorces them or dies.
My friend married since 2006 to his wife who actually was so anxious to be a stay at home quit work while they were engaged to help plan wedding and she moved in. Well since then they bought a new home worth now around 3 million. Have two cars, I know my friend who makes around 500K has made almost 10 million in salary during marriage. And he goes max 401k and does IRA for her and has 529s fully funded all three kids. Since marriage greater than 10 years she gets his SS. In divorce she is entitled to 1/2 at this point, plus alimony, child support and if he drops dead she gets it all plus his multimillion life insurance policy.
Why would she need to work? Do you really think her making 100K a year is even going to matter. She did not have a big job. At his age he has around 10 million invested he makes around 1-2 million a year just on dividends, interest and capital gains a lot of years.
I don’t know…there is a divorce with one of the Pritkers who has a net worth of several billion but it looks the wife will only end up with $10MM…all sorts of tricks you can employ to screw your spouse if you want including moving your assets into trusts and what not.
Sounds like the wife above isn’t super savvy…not to mention the person with lots of money can decide to just spend down the $$$s on lawyers if the divorce is acrimonious. It’s crazy what lengths people will go to screw over a spouse.
Except there is a saying "women have to pick a horse and ride it" In my spouses network it is all nurses, marketing majors, teachers, office worker jobs. The women all graduated average colleges with average degrees. All were pretty and nice. None had parents with money. Most parents had a HS education or were immigrants themselves and lived in small little houses. But a man in his late 20s or early 30s he is looking for exactly that. A women to be a Mom as men have biological clocks too. They weirdly and oddly even though they are business people them selves shy away from business women.
Now pick the horse and ride them. These women wont be able to marry a already rich guy, a guy from a rich family, a guy from a fancy school or grew up fancy neighborhood. Guess that the man wont be able to either.
However, the good looking six foot two inch white guy who is very nice and down to earth who is doing MBA part time or just got it who is 28 who just made AVP at a bank, just made Manager at Big Four, just got his stock broker license who is hardworking with proper molding and a women behind the scenes can like Hillary got Bill to President can make it happen. I have seen it time and time and time again.
And divorce. You girls crack me up. That Labrador of a husband she pushed out door each morning with a kiss on a check and a cup of coffee. He is useless without her. Who is he taken office holiday party, his wife at events is all friendly the other exec wives, she gives him the advice, she manages the money. She has control of house and kids and talks to his mom and sends the cards out and makes him look good. The kids all love Mom she is one home taking them places, cooking, going on class trips in divorce they side with her. Do you really think he has a powerfull attorney and a plot to take the money. He does not even know where the money is.
You live in a fantasy world. Husbands f**k over SAHM moms all the time because they may pay the bills out of one account, but he is shifting tons of $$$s into another account or convincing her to transfer assets into trusts.
He doesn’t give a shit about whether the kids like him or not or if she talks to his mom. If anything he wonders why I married the “help”.
Remember, they usually aren’t getting divorced because we just grew apart…it’s because he is trading her in for a hotter, younger woman.
Anonymous
06/21/2025 11:52
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:People who say they work in case their husband divorces them or dies.
My friend married since 2006 to his wife who actually was so anxious to be a stay at home quit work while they were engaged to help plan wedding and she moved in. Well since then they bought a new home worth now around 3 million. Have two cars, I know my friend who makes around 500K has made almost 10 million in salary during marriage. And he goes max 401k and does IRA for her and has 529s fully funded all three kids. Since marriage greater than 10 years she gets his SS. In divorce she is entitled to 1/2 at this point, plus alimony, child support and if he drops dead she gets it all plus his multimillion life insurance policy.
Why would she need to work? Do you really think her making 100K a year is even going to matter. She did not have a big job. At his age he has around 10 million invested he makes around 1-2 million a year just on dividends, interest and capital gains a lot of years.
There’s a lot more jilted ex-SAHMs who had to reenter the work force upon divorce than there are SAHMs married to wealthy single earners.
Easily a 30:1 ratio.
Yeah cry me a river. Having to have a job? The horror 🤣
Anonymous
06/21/2025 11:27
Subject: Working Moms and Do It All Expectation
What countries with these policies have sustained d a replacement rate or having an increasing birth rate? Trump administration one did 12 week parental leave for federal employees. Not sure where your argument fits in that they have targeted families specifically in other ways fits.
Answer: none. And many/most European countries have struggling economies, which are at least partially the result of low worker productivity.