Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our AAP center experience has been amazing and absolutely life changing for our DC. My other DC isn’t in AAP and doesn’t need it. They are happy and there isn’t some kind of smart / dumb type of animosity in our house.

Inevitably, my guess is the SB will probably move to dismantle the center system as LLIV is finally up and running everywhere. And even more, my guess is that LLIV will probably be moved to the cluster model in most places due to the segregation like optics of separate classes which really aren’t any better than separate schools if we look at it through an equity lens.

Given all the issues present in many low SES/ middle SES elementary schools, the cluster model will likely result in poorer outcomes for those kids.

I’m just happy my DC will have received a top notch elementary/MS education before the AAP system is changed. Sorry some kids said some mean things though.

Could you explain how your center experience has been life changing? My kid attended an AAP center and was still underwhelmed by everything. He felt like he learned more in 3 hours of AoPS math and language arts classes than he did in an entire week of school. My kid's center was at best mildly accelerated and largely still filled with the station model for math, reading groups that never saw the teacher, lots of busywork, and lots of powerpoint presentations. I know that not all centers are the same, and I'm curious about what your center did differently to make the experience life changing for your kid.

Likely, they either have a truly gifted child which isn't representative of most kids in AAP, or they were at a lower SES school and used it as a get away ticket

I'm the quoted PP, and I have a truly gifted child. He was bored out of his mind at the center and still didn't feel like he fit in with the other kids. At best, it was life changing in a negative way.

Depends so much on the center. I have a truly gifted kid and our center had quite a few truly gifted kids so it was a great cohort. In fact, my son really did not have good friends until 3rd grade. Personally, I think reverting back to the old GT system would be the best thing to do. Give these truly gifted kids an appropriate cohort, but make it small enough that it is not upsetting (less upsetting?) to the kids and parents who are not in it.

lol what is a truly gifted kid

Anonymous wrote:I feel like I failed as a parent today! My child (2nd grader) came home crying today because apparently three of her friends are switching schools to go to an AAP center next year. I’m happy with my child’ performance and school, and didn’t even consider pushing for this. But she’s been crying for over an hour about how she is “stupid” and will have no friends next year. She doesn’t even want to see these girls tomorrow because they told her they aren’t friends with her anymore. I had absolutely on idea this is something kids talk about- this is my first kid. Have other parents experienced this ?

Your daughter's bullies are leaving the school?
I see that as an absolute win.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Everyone complaining about how AAP is implemented should remember that there are VDOE requirements for how gifted education works. Yes they can make a lot of changes (APS is totally different, for example, and LCPS is much more restrictive), but things like multiple pathways for referral other than testing are required by the state of Virginia.

That's the point though - it could be implemented differently/better. It doesn't have to be an all or none conversation, but a question of whether the specific way it's implemented in Fairfax county is the best approach.

People move from Arlington and LCPS to Fairfax for AAP because their programs are poorly run.

I am not a fan of the Centers, I don't really see the need but I am at a school that is more middle class/upper middle class so there is less urgency to build a cohort because more kids are starting school ready or a bit ahead. I can see the desire for Center schools for families in Title 1 and near Title 1 schools. I don't understand it in other schools.

If we do have Centers, they should be treated like language immersion and magnet schools and parents shoudl provide transportation. The exception would be at Title 1 and near Title 1 schools where families receiving FARMs would be provided transportation.

I do believe that there is teasing/bulling/unkind comments made by kids in AAP to kids not in AAP. But I heard those comments as a kid lagging behind in ES in the 1980's. Kids are kids and they do pick on other kids, they do use perceived weakness to hurt kids. My nickname was "LD" for a bit. I am in my 50's, I earned a PhD, I have a great job and I can remember the hurt from ES. It happens. It is real. I fully believe that there are kids who weaponize their AAP status against other kids. That said, it would happen without AAP. Kids know who is ahead and who is behind. They know the smart kids and the dumb kids and the hyper kids and the words are said. I corrected a kid in my car who told another kid that no one likes him. I have corrected kids on fields trips and outings for using unkind words, back in kindergarten and still in 6th grade. AAP is not the cause of this, it is just the FCPS vehicle for the same crap kids have dealt with for ages.

Parents need to not hype up that this program is special and that program is lesser. The kids are partially picking up on the vibe from their parents. If you are frantic about your kid getting into AAP, then your kids are going to get that this is really important and that will carry over into how they interact with other kids. We choose not to attend the Center school because it has a reputation for being socially a dead zone. The kids at the school don't accept invitations to birthday parties or to hang out. That is an important part of school to us.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This sounds very unreal.

NP. I assure you, this is absolutely real. The same scenario happened with my child back in 2nd grade too. What made it even worse was that he attended a center school already and so had to see these mean kids for the rest of his elementary years ... Being told as a SEVEN year old that you're either "smarter" than other kids, or "not as smart" is incredibly damaging. The truth is, the vast majority of these kids are identical in ability. Only a very few at either end of the spectrum are so different that they need a specialized curriculum. ... He says to this day that nothing ever made him feel as bad as those kids who were chosen for AAP...

Completely real. OP, My heart is broken for your son! NP, It sounds like he had the resilience to get through this, so congrats on parenting well done. We moved here when my son was in 5th grade and he didn't get in that year. It was a HUGE hit to his confidence and really impacted his entire view of himself. We learned that what AAP vs. NonAAP would truly mean, wasn't extra enrichment, but that some kids walk into school every day being told they are smart and capable, the others are labeled as "not as smart and not as capable." The lunch soccer games are AAP vs. Non-AAP. Every. Single. Day. And if you follow the threads here, you'll know that it's largely based on a subjective eval of cover letters and work samples. The kids are 7! FCPS, How is this any way to raise a next generation of leaders?? FCPS and particularly center schools do nothing to counter the message all the kids receive every single day.

OP, Hang in there. You didn't fail your son, FCPS did. If anything, talk to your principal. They should get out in front of this w/ second graders every spring (but they don't!) and they should be reinforcing positive messages through elementary. On the upside... it is fortunate that it sounds like your son is not at a center school. Fall will be much easier without that constant reminder.

The majority get in through test scores and are smarter but the parent referrals and principal picks invites helicopter parents and teacher's pets into the program and these are the elements of the program most likely to have kids that feel like they are better than others. It's ironic that the kids who act like they are better are the ones that didn't get in because they were better. The really smart kids either have an attitude well before AAP or don't. They didn't need AAP to tell them they were smart.

The problem is that this is no longer necessarily true. The AAP equity report showed that GBRS was 4 times more important than test scores for AAP selection. This also meshes with my experience, where quite a lot of kids with CogAT scores in the 120s but high GBRS got in. Several of these kids were not even in the LII math pullout or highest reading group with my DD, who got rejected with much higher scores.

I agree on the second point. The most obnoxious child and parent were from a girl who prepped like crazy for CogAT, still got only a 120, but was a massive teacher's pet. The mom was a frequent classroom volunteer, and the girl was one of those who had the super expensive, cute matchy clothes. The child bullied mine for "not being smart," and the mom went on at great length about how her child wasn't a good test taker, but the AAP committee really saw through that and realized that her daughter was gifted and special.

I think your example actually proved that referrals and invites bringing in teacher's pets are the kids who are likely to bully others. Those kids learn it at home from the moms who are likely to go on at length about their kid's intelligence.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This sounds very unreal.

NP. I assure you, this is absolutely real. The same scenario happened with my child back in 2nd grade too. What made it even worse was that he attended a center school already and so had to see these mean kids for the rest of his elementary years ... Being told as a SEVEN year old that you're either "smarter" than other kids, or "not as smart" is incredibly damaging. The truth is, the vast majority of these kids are identical in ability. Only a very few at either end of the spectrum are so different that they need a specialized curriculum. ... He says to this day that nothing ever made him feel as bad as those kids who were chosen for AAP...

Completely real. OP, My heart is broken for your son! NP, It sounds like he had the resilience to get through this, so congrats on parenting well done. We moved here when my son was in 5th grade and he didn't get in that year. It was a HUGE hit to his confidence and really impacted his entire view of himself. We learned that what AAP vs. NonAAP would truly mean, wasn't extra enrichment, but that some kids walk into school every day being told they are smart and capable, the others are labeled as "not as smart and not as capable." The lunch soccer games are AAP vs. Non-AAP. Every. Single. Day. And if you follow the threads here, you'll know that it's largely based on a subjective eval of cover letters and work samples. The kids are 7! FCPS, How is this any way to raise a next generation of leaders?? FCPS and particularly center schools do nothing to counter the message all the kids receive every single day.

OP, Hang in there. You didn't fail your son, FCPS did. If anything, talk to your principal. They should get out in front of this w/ second graders every spring (but they don't!) and they should be reinforcing positive messages through elementary. On the upside... it is fortunate that it sounds like your son is not at a center school. Fall will be much easier without that constant reminder.

The majority get in through test scores and are smarter but the parent referrals and principal picks invites helicopter parents and teacher's pets into the program and these are the elements of the program most likely to have kids that feel like they are better than others. It's ironic that the kids who act like they are better are the ones that didn't get in because they were better. The really smart kids either have an attitude well before AAP or don't. They didn't need AAP to tell them they were smart.

The problem is that this is no longer necessarily true. The AAP equity report showed that GBRS was 4 times more important than test scores for AAP selection. This also meshes with my experience, where quite a lot of kids with CogAT scores in the 120s but high GBRS got in. Several of these kids were not even in the LII math pullout or highest reading group with my DD, who got rejected with much higher scores.

I agree on the second point. The most obnoxious child and parent were from a girl who prepped like crazy for CogAT, still got only a 120, but was a massive teacher's pet. The mom was a frequent classroom volunteer, and the girl was one of those who had the super expensive, cute matchy clothes. The child bullied mine for "not being smart," and the mom went on at great length about how her child wasn't a good test taker, but the AAP committee really saw through that and realized that her daughter was gifted and special.

I'm really curious about where this is happening.

PP, I'll tell you. In an elementary school of, practically, all high achieving students -- those high achievers are divided into two groups. "You are the smart ones" and "you are not."

That is the message

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Aren't you all tired of beating this drum about getting rid of AAP/AAP centers? In every post possible these people run over to dump on the program. Well guess what, even if they scrapped AAP and did flexible groups based on ability instead, the kids would still be able to tell who is in the "smart" group and who isn't and comment on it.

I get it, the world seems scarier and more complex than it was when we were kids.
It seems like intelligence, maybe even hyper-intelligence is a pre-requisite to any sort of success.
It's not necessary OR sufficient for success, but everyone seems to think that way.
AAP just accelerates your kid by a year, maybe two.
And frankly math is the only AAP subject that makes any real difference by the time they get into middle school, so in my mind advanced math is every bit as useful as AAP. AAP history is maybe 12 extra worksheets through the year, it's nice but I'd rather have them touch grass.

If you are stressed about your kid not making AAP, see if they qualify for advanced math.
If not, then let them enjoy their childhood while getting good grades.
Teach them resilience, independence and character.
They will get far more mileage out of those traits than an extra year or two of math.

I'm not saying that smart kids can't have character.

The bolded is about who you surround yourself with, not about reality.

And this thread is about people being hurt that their kids were not labeled "smart" by the system and peers, even when their kids were very clearly intelligent and high achievers.
-TJ graduate and AAP parent

Anonymous wrote:Aren't you all tired of beating this drum about getting rid of AAP/AAP centers? In every post possible these people run over to dump on the program. Well guess what, even if they scrapped AAP and did flexible groups based on ability instead, the kids would still be able to tell who is in the "smart" group and who isn't and comment on it.

I get it, the world seems scarier and more complex than it was when we were kids.
It seems like intelligence, maybe even hyper-intelligence is a pre-requisite to any sort of success.
It's not necessary OR sufficient for success, but everyone seems to think that way.
AAP just accelerates your kid by a year, maybe two.
And frankly math is the only AAP subject that makes any real difference by the time they get into middle school, so in my mind advanced math is every bit as useful as AAP. AAP history is maybe 12 extra worksheets through the year, it's nice but I'd rather have them touch grass.

If you are stressed about your kid not making AAP, see if they qualify for advanced math.
If not, then let them enjoy their childhood while getting good grades.
Teach them resilience, independence and character.
They will get far more mileage out of those traits than an extra year or two of math.

I'm not saying that smart kids can't have character.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Our AAP center experience has been amazing and absolutely life changing for our DC. My other DC isn’t in AAP and doesn’t need it. They are happy and there isn’t some kind of smart / dumb type of animosity in our house.

Inevitably, my guess is the SB will probably move to dismantle the center system as LLIV is finally up and running everywhere. And even more, my guess is that LLIV will probably be moved to the cluster model in most places due to the segregation like optics of separate classes which really aren’t any better than separate schools if we look at it through an equity lens.

Given all the issues present in many low SES/ middle SES elementary schools, the cluster model will likely result in poorer outcomes for those kids.

I’m just happy my DC will have received a top notch elementary/MS education before the AAP system is changed. Sorry some kids said some mean things though.

Could you explain how your center experience has been life changing? My kid attended an AAP center and was still underwhelmed by everything. He felt like he learned more in 3 hours of AoPS math and language arts classes than he did in an entire week of school. My kid's center was at best mildly accelerated and largely still filled with the station model for math, reading groups that never saw the teacher, lots of busywork, and lots of powerpoint presentations. I know that not all centers are the same, and I'm curious about what your center did differently to make the experience life changing for your kid.

Likely, they either have a truly gifted child which isn't representative of most kids in AAP, or they were at a lower SES school and used it as a get away ticket

I'm the quoted PP, and I have a truly gifted child. He was bored out of his mind at the center and still didn't feel like he fit in with the other kids. At best, it was life changing in a negative way.

Depends so much on the center. I have a truly gifted kid and our center had quite a few truly gifted kids so it was a great cohort. In fact, my son really did not have good friends until 3rd grade. Personally, I think reverting back to the old GT system would be the best thing to do. Give these truly gifted kids an appropriate cohort, but make it small enough that it is not upsetting (less upsetting?) to the kids and parents who are not in it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I have two kids in AAP. The older one spend the first semester in GE class before having cogAT test and then admitted into AAP. He was in 4th grade. He was identified as gifted at the previous school in a different state. Before he switched to AAP class, he made good friends with some very smart GE kids. I believe that He never thinks that GE kids are no smart. My younger one's admission experience is different. He got high score in NNAT and cogAT, he was in pool but got reject in the first round. He was not the only one. His best friend, who was in pool too, also got rejected. My younger one got in by appeal but his friend didn't. Because of the appeal, we missed the AAP tour. At the beginning of the 3rd grade, we saw who were in the AAP class. Our experience is that AAP kids are not necessarily the top students, GE class have some really smart kids. It's not always based on test , or IQ, or need. Du to the randomness, any smart kids could end up in either GE or AAP. This is just the beginning of their lives.

Yep. The kids at our high school who were accepted to Ivies were never in AAP during elementary and middle school. They were the under-the-radar kids who were actually brilliant but quiet and kept to themselves. Plenty of those kids are never chosen for AAP which makes the whole exercise even more shameful. Just allow kids to cycle in and out of flexible groupings, as needed, while creating a very selective, small GT program for kids who are truly gifted. The end.

This is probably not true. There may be a handful of kids like that in the entire county unless you are talking about athletic recruits.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This sounds very unreal.

NP. I assure you, this is absolutely real. The same scenario happened with my child back in 2nd grade too. What made it even worse was that he attended a center school already and so had to see these mean kids for the rest of his elementary years ... Being told as a SEVEN year old that you're either "smarter" than other kids, or "not as smart" is incredibly damaging. The truth is, the vast majority of these kids are identical in ability. Only a very few at either end of the spectrum are so different that they need a specialized curriculum. ... He says to this day that nothing ever made him feel as bad as those kids who were chosen for AAP...

Completely real. OP, My heart is broken for your son! NP, It sounds like he had the resilience to get through this, so congrats on parenting well done. We moved here when my son was in 5th grade and he didn't get in that year. It was a HUGE hit to his confidence and really impacted his entire view of himself. We learned that what AAP vs. NonAAP would truly mean, wasn't extra enrichment, but that some kids walk into school every day being told they are smart and capable, the others are labeled as "not as smart and not as capable." The lunch soccer games are AAP vs. Non-AAP. Every. Single. Day. And if you follow the threads here, you'll know that it's largely based on a subjective eval of cover letters and work samples. The kids are 7! FCPS, How is this any way to raise a next generation of leaders?? FCPS and particularly center schools do nothing to counter the message all the kids receive every single day.

OP, Hang in there. You didn't fail your son, FCPS did. If anything, talk to your principal. They should get out in front of this w/ second graders every spring (but they don't!) and they should be reinforcing positive messages through elementary. On the upside... it is fortunate that it sounds like your son is not at a center school. Fall will be much easier without that constant reminder.

The majority get in through test scores and are smarter but the parent referrals and principal picks invites helicopter parents and teacher's pets into the program and these are the elements of the program most likely to have kids that feel like they are better than others. It's ironic that the kids who act like they are better are the ones that didn't get in because they were better. The really smart kids either have an attitude well before AAP or don't. They didn't need AAP to tell them they were smart.

Anonymous wrote:Everyone complaining about how AAP is implemented should remember that there are VDOE requirements for how gifted education works. Yes they can make a lot of changes (APS is totally different, for example, and LCPS is much more restrictive), but things like multiple pathways for referral other than testing are required by the state of Virginia.

That's the point though - it could be implemented differently/better. It doesn't have to be an all or none conversation, but a question of whether the specific way it's implemented in Fairfax county is the best approach.

Everyone complaining about how AAP is implemented should remember that there are VDOE requirements for how gifted education works. Yes they can make a lot of changes (APS is totally different, for example, and LCPS is much more restrictive), but things like multiple pathways for referral other than testing are required by the state of Virginia.

Anonymous wrote:Michelle Reid should rethink this whole program.

Don't worry, she hates it and is working hard to dismantle it. She's from the Pacific Northwest.

Garza was from Texas and supported the AAP program. She supported a academic excellence. That is no longer the goal of public education.

Michelle Reid should rethink this whole program.