Anonymous wrote:I went to a highly selective college and I would consider letting my daughter get invested in going there to be a major parenting foul.

1) Kids are their own people. They have their own paths.
2) “I want to go to Harvard” is as bad a dream for a kid to fixate on as “I want to play in the NBA.” It undervalues the parts that are the most important and overvalues the final outcome that’s very unlikely to happen no matter what.

Comments like this are interesting, because there are in fact the .01% of athletes who do in fact go on to play their sport professionally.

If you look at Caleb Williams (Gonzaga graduate, likely top 5 NFL draft pick), his parents sacrificed massively for him to be where he is and he had private trainers, private QB coaches, etc. Sure, he wanted it...but he probably wasn't going to get there on his own.

The issue quite honestly is that most highly successful people do have goals like "I want to play in the NFL"...the problem is that for many they have the "dream" to play in the NFL and not the goal. Meaning, they aren't prepared to give up essentially 1/2 their life to attaining that level of success and/or they realize they don't have the natural ability or size from the start.

Look at basically any successful athlete, entertainer, etc. Even a group like Nirvana...Kurt Cobain told his bandmates when they were nothing that his goal was to create the biggest band in the world. Again, most people "dream" of that happening...very few put in the 10,000+ hours to make it a reality.

Anonymous wrote:I went to a highly selective college and I would consider letting my daughter get invested in going there to be a major parenting foul.

1) Kids are their own people. They have their own paths.
2) “I want to go to Harvard” is as bad a dream for a kid to fixate on as “I want to play in the NBA.” It undervalues the parts that are the most important and overvalues the final outcome that’s very unlikely to happen no matter what.

+1 and amen.

Anonymous wrote:OP. I hear you. I am by no means an Ivy or bust person - these schools are longshots for every student - but it would bother me if my child decided to take a less rigorous course schedule sophomore year even though they have shown they can handle it (academically, at least) in ninth grade. The fact of the matter is that it is difficult to get into even state flagships without taking a high-rigor schedule in the current environment. I want my children to keep as many doors open as possible for as long as possible. A 14 year old does not fully understand the implications of her choices, and as a parent, I think it is your responsibility to explain them. I am also from a culture where working hard in academics is just expected, and a little stress is not seen as a bad thing.

This. It isn’t (or shouldn’t be) about Ivy schools. It’s about taking the courses that are most suited to your abilities and talents. Some stress is a good thing. Life is stressful. While classes absolutely can stress teens out- these are not real problems, not really. And they are sure to face real stressors in their life. Taking easy classes she doesn’t have to work in isn’t going to do her any favors. The exception would be if she is having mental health issues. But you can’t force. You have to work with her to find a balance of what is an appropriate work load that challenges her and gives her a sense of achievement vs a course load that is so hard she feels like she is on a hamster wheel and cannot keep pace.

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Anonymous wrote:Dh and I also went to an Ivy. Our dcs are excellent students, well-rounded people...And they would never get in now. The college landscape has changed so much and is so competitive. I have zero doubts they'd excel at an Ivy, but it won't happen.

+1

After doing alumni interviews for years, I realized that it’s not worth killing yourself to build an insane resume just to enter a lottery.

And I’ve also realized that people can be happy/successful anywhere they go for undergrad. I prefer they find a good peer group for lifelong friendships but you can find your people in many schools.

I feel like people fail to realize how much of a lottery it is, especially for kinds coming from the DC area. I did IB w/ a middling GPA but high SATs, made time for a fun high school experience, and ended up at a state school honors program for undergrad. I loved it, stood out academically without having to work too hard, had a great time socially, and am so glad that's how it turned out. So many of my HS classmates wore themselves thin just to end up at UMD with the kids who had fun. You can have a 4.0 and perfect test scores and all the hooks in the world and still get rejected. One of the best lessons I learned from a mentor in undergrad is that goals should be things you have control over; they should be actionable. "Getting into an Ivy" isn't a healthy or realistic goal, because so much of it is luck and at the end of the day you can do everything "right" and still not get in. And of course going to an Ivy is not at all the right fit for everyone (and all of them are SO different), nor is it a guarantee for success.

I'm currently getting my masters at an HYP school and I have friends with the same stats as me who got rejected from my masters program. I think the acceptance rate for this year's application cycle was literally under 1% (it's a very specific program only offered at a few schools, even the non-T20 programs are super competitive), and I absolutely tell people that after a certain stats threshold it's basically a lottery. We've joked that admission depends on whether or not [notoriously hangry program chair] read your file before or after lunch.

I have friends in my program who applied 2-3 times before getting in, and were specifically told to apply again in the next cycle because their rejection was an issue of space, not an issue of talent. There are so few seats, you can be so smart and so hardworking and still not make the cut. Of the 13 people in my specific Ivy graduate program, 6 (!) of us are from the DMV (mix of MCPS/FCPS/private) and only one of us got into an Ivy for undergrad.

I also think it's one of those things where correlation is not a causation. Yes I'm getting the Ivy education and connections, but when you're looking at a crazy competitive program, all the people who got in were always going to do well regardless of where they went-- be it due to intelligence/talent, work ethic, or family money/connections. I think specifically for my program, which has a heavy interview and vetting process on top of a standard application, we got in because we were already on the right trajectory to be at the top of our field, simply going to an Ivy isn't what's going to make us successful, we were already on track to be successful. And I'd imagine the same is true for a lot of people who were in the top 5-10% of applicants but just didn't make that final round of cuts. They'll all be fine professionally. Sometimes it feels like very fancy daycare-- I'm just here to hang out and meet the "right" people, not necessarily learn. I have friends getting the same degree at state schools who seem to have more rigor/learn more content than I do at my Ivy.

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Anonymous wrote:Any kid who "wants to go to Mom's alma mater since she was a little kid" is a victim of bad parenting. That is completely unhealthy idea to plant in a little kid's head, as reflects Mom's pathetic obsession with her alma mater's status

I think people are dumping because it is an Ivy League school.

There are plenty of Michigan Alums (including my neighbor) that deck their kids out in full Michigan gear and of course were insufferable when they won the NCAA football championship. I don't accuse them of having pathetic obsessions.

Exactly. I went to a very good VA university with a strong fan base. Not Ivy of course but extremely competitive for VA in-state. I have worn their gear occasionally and we’ve driven through campus a few times since my kids were born. One of my kids has passionately attached themselves to the idea that they’ll go there someday. Maybe, maybe not but I never pushed for them to go there and my other kids don’t give a sh*t about going there. It’s not always about obsessive parents but people do love to crap on parents here instead of helping them. Bummer.

Anonymous wrote:I went to Harvard. If my kid gets into a top 50, I will be thrilled. If not, there are many good options. We have all worked with hugely competent people who went to the State U nearest their childhood home. I have told my kid, though, that working hard in high school increases the number of options you have.

I have taught at a few universities, and it isn't the case that, "Freshman bio is the same everywhere." I think you want to look for places that teach the topics at the end of the textbooks, that require written papers and not just debates or presentations, and that have a freshman writing program that gives frequent, low-stakes feedback. You want the faculty to have their PhDs from a diversity of places, because nepotism in hiring can fly under the radar. (Oh, the stories...) Someone in the Math Dept. doing research on math education is also a good sign.

Amazing insight here - thank you.

OP here. There is some really great advice here amidst the flogging. This topic really riles some people up, doesn’t it? It’s quite fascinating. I can almost see someone of you foaming at the mouth. How bizarre.

To those who offered up sincere advice: I see you, I hear you and I thank you. It’s been very helpful and has given me some things to think about.

I hope this is a troll.

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Anonymous wrote:Op here. Damn I woke the beasts. I was hoping for helpful sane DCUM.

First of all, we didn’t come from money so this isn’t Muffy buys a library to get little Princess in. We had to work so hard. And now we have a better life so maybe our kids aren’t feeling that push that we had.

And of course don’t take my school literally. Just representative of what our collective goals were for so long: very strong schools.

Secondly, I am SURE you all want your kids to to top schools. You all talk about it all the time here. So, so do we. But I am trying navigate that plan with my daughter in front of me right now and hear her while also acknowledging that we are dealing with an adolescent and all that comes with. And I want to do the right thing.

It’s a reasonable question. And only sane DCUM need respond.

Do you honestly think you are where you are only because you went to Ivys? Not because you were hard workers and smart? You really couldn’t haven’t gotten where you are by having gone to a state school or regional university?

I ask because my husband and I went to a school ranked lower than 100 and we are both doing really well. In fulfilling jobs, too (not big law or finance). My husband is honestly one of the smartest people I know, and incredibly hard working. He didn’t need and Ivy to succeed, and neither did I.

I hate anecdotes. They never support the points people are trying to make and anytime they are given in the context of elite schools, there is no winning.

Did Jeff Bezos need Princeton? I don't know...but he came from a modest background and is the richest person in the world.

The list of the richest people and elite schools can go on-and-on.

Jeff Bezos is an ambitious amoral genius who would have thrived anywhere. But Mackenzie Scott made $40B because she went to Princeton where she got the one of MRS degree you can't get at UMD.

English degree and a secretary job that just so happened to be ground zero for billionaires.

That is the argument everyone makes, when they can't make an argument. Zuckerberg and Gates are also "amoral geniuses" that would have made it anywhere...but just happened to to go Harvard (or more aptly, happened to drop out of Harvard)?

I presume in your world, any billionaire is an "amoral genius", correct?

Mackenzie Bezos didn't even know Jeff Bezos at Princeton. They met at DE Shaw, a hedge fund...which was the first time they had ever met.

DE Shaw only hires from elite schools. She would never have been hired there if she didn’t go to Princeton.

Well, they actually have a target list of like 30 schools that includes many non-Ivy schools. However, I guess indirectly you are now plugging that there is value to these elite schools.

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Anonymous wrote:Op here. Damn I woke the beasts. I was hoping for helpful sane DCUM.

First of all, we didn’t come from money so this isn’t Muffy buys a library to get little Princess in. We had to work so hard. And now we have a better life so maybe our kids aren’t feeling that push that we had.

And of course don’t take my school literally. Just representative of what our collective goals were for so long: very strong schools.

Secondly, I am SURE you all want your kids to to top schools. You all talk about it all the time here. So, so do we. But I am trying navigate that plan with my daughter in front of me right now and hear her while also acknowledging that we are dealing with an adolescent and all that comes with. And I want to do the right thing.

It’s a reasonable question. And only sane DCUM need respond.

Do you honestly think you are where you are only because you went to Ivys? Not because you were hard workers and smart? You really couldn’t haven’t gotten where you are by having gone to a state school or regional university?

I ask because my husband and I went to a school ranked lower than 100 and we are both doing really well. In fulfilling jobs, too (not big law or finance). My husband is honestly one of the smartest people I know, and incredibly hard working. He didn’t need and Ivy to succeed, and neither did I.

I hate anecdotes. They never support the points people are trying to make and anytime they are given in the context of elite schools, there is no winning.

Did Jeff Bezos need Princeton? I don't know...but he came from a modest background and is the richest person in the world.

The list of the richest people and elite schools can go on-and-on.

Jeff Bezos is an ambitious amoral genius who would have thrived anywhere. But Mackenzie Scott made $40B because she went to Princeton where she got the one of MRS degree you can't get at UMD.

English degree and a secretary job that just so happened to be ground zero for billionaires.

That is the argument everyone makes, when they can't make an argument. Zuckerberg and Gates are also "amoral geniuses" that would have made it anywhere...but just happened to to go Harvard (or more aptly, happened to drop out of Harvard)?

I presume in your world, any billionaire is an "amoral genius", correct?

Mackenzie Bezos didn't even know Jeff Bezos at Princeton. They met at DE Shaw, a hedge fund...which was the first time they had ever met.

DE Shaw only hires from elite schools. She would never have been hired there if she didn’t go to Princeton.

Interesting. If you go to their website and click on “who we are”, the very first profile is of a woman who got her undergrad degree at University of Washington and her PhD at NYU.

I’m not going to get into an argument about how hedge funds hire. NYU is top notch for business. Don’t know what that person has a phd in but NYU is a solid school.

I used to work in finance in NYC and it seemed like most people were from Ivy, MIT, Stanford and NYU.

Well when you make the statement that “DE Shaw only hires from elite schools” and someone proves you wrong, you should be prepared for an argument.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Any kid who "wants to go to Mom's alma mater since she was a little kid" is a victim of bad parenting. That is completely unhealthy idea to plant in a little kid's head, as reflects Mom's pathetic obsession with her alma mater's status

I think people are dumping because it is an Ivy League school.

There are plenty of Michigan Alums (including my neighbor) that deck their kids out in full Michigan gear and of course were insufferable when they won the NCAA football championship. I don't accuse them of having pathetic obsessions.

They are focusing on football teams so they’re a little pathetic. And March madness? Ridiculous but you know some pick their colleges based on the quality of their sports

I went to Harvard. If my kid gets into a top 50, I will be thrilled. If not, there are many good options. We have all worked with hugely competent people who went to the State U nearest their childhood home. I have told my kid, though, that working hard in high school increases the number of options you have.

I have taught at a few universities, and it isn't the case that, "Freshman bio is the same everywhere." I think you want to look for places that teach the topics at the end of the textbooks, that require written papers and not just debates or presentations, and that have a freshman writing program that gives frequent, low-stakes feedback. You want the faculty to have their PhDs from a diversity of places, because nepotism in hiring can fly under the radar. (Oh, the stories...) Someone in the Math Dept. doing research on math education is also a good sign.

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Anonymous wrote:Op here. Damn I woke the beasts. I was hoping for helpful sane DCUM.

First of all, we didn’t come from money so this isn’t Muffy buys a library to get little Princess in. We had to work so hard. And now we have a better life so maybe our kids aren’t feeling that push that we had.

And of course don’t take my school literally. Just representative of what our collective goals were for so long: very strong schools.

Secondly, I am SURE you all want your kids to to top schools. You all talk about it all the time here. So, so do we. But I am trying navigate that plan with my daughter in front of me right now and hear her while also acknowledging that we are dealing with an adolescent and all that comes with. And I want to do the right thing.

It’s a reasonable question. And only sane DCUM need respond.

Do you honestly think you are where you are only because you went to Ivys? Not because you were hard workers and smart? You really couldn’t haven’t gotten where you are by having gone to a state school or regional university?

I ask because my husband and I went to a school ranked lower than 100 and we are both doing really well. In fulfilling jobs, too (not big law or finance). My husband is honestly one of the smartest people I know, and incredibly hard working. He didn’t need and Ivy to succeed, and neither did I.

I hate anecdotes. They never support the points people are trying to make and anytime they are given in the context of elite schools, there is no winning.

Did Jeff Bezos need Princeton? I don't know...but he came from a modest background and is the richest person in the world.

The list of the richest people and elite schools can go on-and-on.

Jeff Bezos is an ambitious amoral genius who would have thrived anywhere. But Mackenzie Scott made $40B because she went to Princeton where she got the one of MRS degree you can't get at UMD.

English degree and a secretary job that just so happened to be ground zero for billionaires.

That is the argument everyone makes, when they can't make an argument. Zuckerberg and Gates are also "amoral geniuses" that would have made it anywhere...but just happened to to go Harvard (or more aptly, happened to drop out of Harvard)?

I presume in your world, any billionaire is an "amoral genius", correct?

Mackenzie Bezos didn't even know Jeff Bezos at Princeton. They met at DE Shaw, a hedge fund...which was the first time they had ever met.

DE Shaw only hires from elite schools. She would never have been hired there if she didn’t go to Princeton.

Interesting. If you go to their website and click on “who we are”, the very first profile is of a woman who got her undergrad degree at University of Washington and her PhD at NYU.

I’m not going to get into an argument about how hedge funds hire. NYU is top notch for business. Don’t know what that person has a phd in but NYU is a solid school.

I used to work in finance in NYC and it seemed like most people were from Ivy, MIT, Stanford and NYU.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:Op here. Damn I woke the beasts. I was hoping for helpful sane DCUM.

First of all, we didn’t come from money so this isn’t Muffy buys a library to get little Princess in. We had to work so hard. And now we have a better life so maybe our kids aren’t feeling that push that we had.

And of course don’t take my school literally. Just representative of what our collective goals were for so long: very strong schools.

Secondly, I am SURE you all want your kids to to top schools. You all talk about it all the time here. So, so do we. But I am trying navigate that plan with my daughter in front of me right now and hear her while also acknowledging that we are dealing with an adolescent and all that comes with. And I want to do the right thing.

It’s a reasonable question. And only sane DCUM need respond.

Do you honestly think you are where you are only because you went to Ivys? Not because you were hard workers and smart? You really couldn’t haven’t gotten where you are by having gone to a state school or regional university?

I ask because my husband and I went to a school ranked lower than 100 and we are both doing really well. In fulfilling jobs, too (not big law or finance). My husband is honestly one of the smartest people I know, and incredibly hard working. He didn’t need and Ivy to succeed, and neither did I.

I hate anecdotes. They never support the points people are trying to make and anytime they are given in the context of elite schools, there is no winning.

Did Jeff Bezos need Princeton? I don't know...but he came from a modest background and is the richest person in the world.

The list of the richest people and elite schools can go on-and-on.

Jeff Bezos is an ambitious amoral genius who would have thrived anywhere. But Mackenzie Scott made $40B because she went to Princeton where she got the one of MRS degree you can't get at UMD.

English degree and a secretary job that just so happened to be ground zero for billionaires.

That is the argument everyone makes, when they can't make an argument. Zuckerberg and Gates are also "amoral geniuses" that would have made it anywhere...but just happened to to go Harvard (or more aptly, happened to drop out of Harvard)?

I presume in your world, any billionaire is an "amoral genius", correct?

Mackenzie Bezos didn't even know Jeff Bezos at Princeton. They met at DE Shaw, a hedge fund...which was the first time they had ever met.

DE Shaw only hires from elite schools. She would never have been hired there if she didn’t go to Princeton.

Interesting. If you go to their website and click on “who we are”, the very first profile is of a woman who got her undergrad degree at University of Washington and her PhD at NYU.

Anonymous wrote:I went to a highly selective college and I would consider letting my daughter get invested in going there to be a major parenting foul.

1) Kids are their own people. They have their own paths.
2) “I want to go to Harvard” is as bad a dream for a kid to fixate on as “I want to play in the NBA.” It undervalues the parts that are the most important and overvalues the final outcome that’s very unlikely to happen no matter what.

Bravo! I feel the same way, exactly. However, I'll acknowledge that I probably harbored similar ambitions to the OP at some point in my life. Now that my oldest has been through the admissions process, I'm so thrilled he's at a great school and doing well academically and socially. Ivies and the like are a pointless mireage.