Anonymous
09/01/2023 23:11
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Guys it’s been two years! 2 years!
It’s been 3.5.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 22:55
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Guys it’s been two years! 2 years!
Anonymous
09/01/2023 21:04
Subject: Re:Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:OP here. I'm pissed this thread became a pile-on of a bunch of people telling anyone talking about their struggles that actually they don't have struggles and should stop talking about it. I think a lot of you have MAJOR issues that this is how you choose to spend your time.
Anyway, I'm going to go through and report a bunch of these comments as off-tope and ask Jeff to clean up the thread because I actually do think it could be a source of support and commiseration for people who need it. If that's not you, you can go away. Thanks!
Hi OP- I think what might be contributing the most to your malaise is grief over not having a second kid. It wasn't really a choice, it was taken from you.
I, too, missed our window during 2021-2022. I know we are out there. There needs to be a support group for us. I've really thought about starting one.
Parenting your one while mourning, MOURNING your second/the possibility/the hope, is HARD. It's exhausting. The Crippling grief. The self-flagellation and feelings of failure-"why is it so hard, I only have one." The guilt over no sibling. The anger- lots of anger.
And because it's so intertwined with COVID it's hard to tease apart. For a long time I thought my malaise was mostly due to COVID, but since winter of 2022, it's been grief. COVID was the crappy foundation from which everything else flows.
It's taken me nearly two years and a lot of therapy to not cry everyday. And it's still hard.
It sounds like you are doing better than I was, but I hope this is somewhat helpful and you consider finding a therapist/grief counselor. Hugs.
You are not alone but I know it can feel that way.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 20:43
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
I honestly can't tell anymore whether comments like this are intentional trolling or if you are truly this obtuse.
Not everyone can afford private school. Full stop. The idea that everyone enrolled in public school can simply shift to private on a whim is asinine.
In some places (like where I live in DC), public schools were closed from March 2020 until fall 2021. A full year of school and then some. Especially for people with kids too young for virtual, this meant they had to figure out childcare and school options for a full year and change. And if you lived in an area like this, this also meant that there were more people looking for childcare spots for ECE-aged kids than there were options available, because where I live most people send kids to public for PK and K, so there is simply not capacity in the private programs to absorb everyone. A handful of daycares added classes for 4 and 5 year olds, but not all did or could -- Covid guidelines for daycares meant that even when the reopened (and not all did) they often had fewer spots available in order to accommodate social distancing guidelines, and had reduced hours as well, as many on this thread have pointed out.
I don't know why I am even explaining this. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together understands why "private schools were open" or "why didn't you just hire a nanny?" were not solutions available to the vast majority of the population. Y'all are either idiots or you're trolling, and if the latter I guess I'm just giving you what you want. But telling people to stop complaining because, after all, your private opened up in fall 2020, is idiotic either way.
I have 3 kids. 2 kids were in elementary and I also had a toddler who was in the 2’s program. Most or all preschools opened that fall. I know a church preschool by us just shut down and never opened. Those parents just switched to a different preschool.
My older kids were in virtual school for almost a year. They did sports starting in June 2020.
I don’t know anyone who couldn’t find childcare if they wanted it. It is more they didn’t want to expose their kids so they kept them home and didn’t want the nanny to come. I had friends who sent their kids back to daycare as early as May 2020 and they weren’t even essential workers. These were daycares they did not attend previously.
I'm an NP and I think there is a big distinction between daycare-aged kids and elementary school kids. My daycare did reopen in June 2020 and we sent my 2yo back (Bethesda).
But there are 2 points that PPs are purposely being obtuse about.
1. These programs just didn't exist for school-age kids, especially not in the vast numbers required to absorb every public school elementary kid! It wouldn't have made sense for them to exist pre-Covid.
2. In DC, a lot of kids go to public pre-K and same - not enough private spots to absorb everyone.
Yes some families also made choices to limit exposure. But others could not find anything reasonable or affordable.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 20:27
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
I honestly can't tell anymore whether comments like this are intentional trolling or if you are truly this obtuse.
Not everyone can afford private school. Full stop. The idea that everyone enrolled in public school can simply shift to private on a whim is asinine.
In some places (like where I live in DC), public schools were closed from March 2020 until fall 2021. A full year of school and then some. Especially for people with kids too young for virtual, this meant they had to figure out childcare and school options for a full year and change. And if you lived in an area like this, this also meant that there were more people looking for childcare spots for ECE-aged kids than there were options available, because where I live most people send kids to public for PK and K, so there is simply not capacity in the private programs to absorb everyone. A handful of daycares added classes for 4 and 5 year olds, but not all did or could -- Covid guidelines for daycares meant that even when the reopened (and not all did) they often had fewer spots available in order to accommodate social distancing guidelines, and had reduced hours as well, as many on this thread have pointed out.
I don't know why I am even explaining this. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together understands why "private schools were open" or "why didn't you just hire a nanny?" were not solutions available to the vast majority of the population. Y'all are either idiots or you're trolling, and if the latter I guess I'm just giving you what you want. But telling people to stop complaining because, after all, your private opened up in fall 2020, is idiotic either way.
I have 3 kids. 2 kids were in elementary and I also had a toddler who was in the 2’s program. Most or all preschools opened that fall. I know a church preschool by us just shut down and never opened. Those parents just switched to a different preschool.
My older kids were in virtual school for almost a year. They did sports starting in June 2020.
I don’t know anyone who couldn’t find childcare if they wanted it. It is more they didn’t want to expose their kids so they kept them home and didn’t want the nanny to come. I had friends who sent their kids back to daycare as early as May 2020 and they weren’t even essential workers. These were daycares they did not attend previously.
That's you. I literally just explained that not everyone had that experience. In my area, we lost hundreds of in-person PK spots because public schools were virtual for over a year. There was no way for private preschools to absorb all those kids. Some people were able to put pods together but not everyone could afford it or had the space. Some people were able to squeeze PK kids into daycares where they already had younger kids, but not all daycares had availability. Some people moved into their parents homes for periods of time to get extra help while they worked remotely, but that's obviously not an option everyone had. Many, many people just muddled through, maybe with some part-time care, maybe one parent moving into a part time role or a leave of absence or just quitting their job, but all of these meant losing money and impacted careers. And so on.
It's just frustrating and exhausting to say "this was my experience, it was hard" and to be repeatedly told "no that wasn't your experience because I didn't personally observe that in my own narrow experience." Like do you actually think that all these people are just lying or exaggerating about it? It happened. Many, many family spent a year plus with inadequate childcare, and if you had kids under the age 6/7, the burden was not insignificant.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 19:18
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
I honestly can't tell anymore whether comments like this are intentional trolling or if you are truly this obtuse.
Not everyone can afford private school. Full stop. The idea that everyone enrolled in public school can simply shift to private on a whim is asinine.
In some places (like where I live in DC), public schools were closed from March 2020 until fall 2021. A full year of school and then some. Especially for people with kids too young for virtual, this meant they had to figure out childcare and school options for a full year and change. And if you lived in an area like this, this also meant that there were more people looking for childcare spots for ECE-aged kids than there were options available, because where I live most people send kids to public for PK and K, so there is simply not capacity in the private programs to absorb everyone. A handful of daycares added classes for 4 and 5 year olds, but not all did or could -- Covid guidelines for daycares meant that even when the reopened (and not all did) they often had fewer spots available in order to accommodate social distancing guidelines, and had reduced hours as well, as many on this thread have pointed out.
I don't know why I am even explaining this. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together understands why "private schools were open" or "why didn't you just hire a nanny?" were not solutions available to the vast majority of the population. Y'all are either idiots or you're trolling, and if the latter I guess I'm just giving you what you want. But telling people to stop complaining because, after all, your private opened up in fall 2020, is idiotic either way.
I have 3 kids. 2 kids were in elementary and I also had a toddler who was in the 2’s program. Most or all preschools opened that fall. I know a church preschool by us just shut down and never opened. Those parents just switched to a different preschool.
My older kids were in virtual school for almost a year. They did sports starting in June 2020.
I don’t know anyone who couldn’t find childcare if they wanted it. It is more they didn’t want to expose their kids so they kept them home and didn’t want the nanny to come. I had friends who sent their kids back to daycare as early as May 2020 and they weren’t even essential workers. These were daycares they did not attend previously.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 17:21
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
Yes, that is from March 2020 to Feb 2021- ish, for many, many people. Some of them losing jobs or running themselves ragged working 2 jobs - teacher/childcare for early elementary age kids plus their day job for 6 months to a year, all in an environment of fear, uncertainty and recrimination. It broke us.
Every single family I know who truly sought in person childcare, found it.
(1) When did they find it? How long did they go without?
(2) What does "truly sought in person childcare" mean? Do you think there are people who wanted/needed in person care but simply didn't try hard enough? Do you think it's possible they had restrictions you don't understand, like a limited budget?
(3) How many of the people you know are middle or working class? If everyone you know has an average HHI of 300k, then I believe you but also think it's irrelevant to this conversation, because that's double our HHI. There are lots of problems you can solve by throwing money at them, and people in the top 1-5% of all earners generally have money to throw at problems. But the remaining 95% of the population does not, which is why you see a lot of people not his thread talking about the challenges of childcare during the pandemic. They aren't lying, they are simply more resource constrained than you and the people you know.
1. - Definitely by the start of the Fall 2020 school year, and many were enrolled in outdoor camps that summer prior. And a ton of people I know sent their kids to places that were previously aftercare (TKD, Dance, Gyms, etc.) for a supervised virtual school day.
2. - Yes most people I know make at least 200k combined. Interestingly, it was the people in the lower end of this income bracket that were more likely to have in person care because they themselves had to work in person (Intelligence, teaching, nursing, hotel management, etc.) The wealthier $300k+ folks were less likely to have childcare because their jobs were more able to be WFH/Time shifted.
So you mostly know wealthy and UMC folks and, amazingly, they didn't struggle as much to find childcare during the pandemic as people with less money.
I'm shocked.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 17:13
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
Yes, that is from March 2020 to Feb 2021- ish, for many, many people. Some of them losing jobs or running themselves ragged working 2 jobs - teacher/childcare for early elementary age kids plus their day job for 6 months to a year, all in an environment of fear, uncertainty and recrimination. It broke us.
Every single family I know who truly sought in person childcare, found it.
(1) When did they find it? How long did they go without?
(2) What does "truly sought in person childcare" mean? Do you think there are people who wanted/needed in person care but simply didn't try hard enough? Do you think it's possible they had restrictions you don't understand, like a limited budget?
(3) How many of the people you know are middle or working class? If everyone you know has an average HHI of 300k, then I believe you but also think it's irrelevant to this conversation, because that's double our HHI. There are lots of problems you can solve by throwing money at them, and people in the top 1-5% of all earners generally have money to throw at problems. But the remaining 95% of the population does not, which is why you see a lot of people not his thread talking about the challenges of childcare during the pandemic. They aren't lying, they are simply more resource constrained than you and the people you know.
1. - Definitely by the start of the Fall 2020 school year, and many were enrolled in outdoor camps that summer prior. And a ton of people I know sent their kids to places that were previously aftercare (TKD, Dance, Gyms, etc.) for a supervised virtual school day.
2. - Yes most people I know make at least 200k combined. Interestingly, it was the people in the lower end of this income bracket that were more likely to have in person care because they themselves had to work in person (Intelligence, teaching, nursing, hotel management, etc.) The wealthier $300k+ folks were less likely to have childcare because their jobs were more able to be WFH/Time shifted.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 17:06
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
Yes, that is from March 2020 to Feb 2021- ish, for many, many people. Some of them losing jobs or running themselves ragged working 2 jobs - teacher/childcare for early elementary age kids plus their day job for 6 months to a year, all in an environment of fear, uncertainty and recrimination. It broke us.
Every single family I know who truly sought in person childcare, found it.
(1) When did they find it? How long did they go without?
(2) What does "truly sought in person childcare" mean? Do you think there are people who wanted/needed in person care but simply didn't try hard enough? Do you think it's possible they had restrictions you don't understand, like a limited budget?
(3) How many of the people you know are middle or working class? If everyone you know has an average HHI of 300k, then I believe you but also think it's irrelevant to this conversation, because that's double our HHI. There are lots of problems you can solve by throwing money at them, and people in the top 1-5% of all earners generally have money to throw at problems. But the remaining 95% of the population does not, which is why you see a lot of people not his thread talking about the challenges of childcare during the pandemic. They aren't lying, they are simply more resource constrained than you and the people you know.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 17:02
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
I honestly can't tell anymore whether comments like this are intentional trolling or if you are truly this obtuse.
Not everyone can afford private school. Full stop. The idea that everyone enrolled in public school can simply shift to private on a whim is asinine.
In some places (like where I live in DC), public schools were closed from March 2020 until fall 2021. A full year of school and then some. Especially for people with kids too young for virtual, this meant they had to figure out childcare and school options for a full year and change. And if you lived in an area like this, this also meant that there were more people looking for childcare spots for ECE-aged kids than there were options available, because where I live most people send kids to public for PK and K, so there is simply not capacity in the private programs to absorb everyone. A handful of daycares added classes for 4 and 5 year olds, but not all did or could -- Covid guidelines for daycares meant that even when the reopened (and not all did) they often had fewer spots available in order to accommodate social distancing guidelines, and had reduced hours as well, as many on this thread have pointed out.
I don't know why I am even explaining this. Anyone with two brain cells to rub together understands why "private schools were open" or "why didn't you just hire a nanny?" were not solutions available to the vast majority of the population. Y'all are either idiots or you're trolling, and if the latter I guess I'm just giving you what you want. But telling people to stop complaining because, after all, your private opened up in fall 2020, is idiotic either way.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 17:01
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
Yes, that is from March 2020 to Feb 2021- ish, for many, many people. Some of them losing jobs or running themselves ragged working 2 jobs - teacher/childcare for early elementary age kids plus their day job for 6 months to a year, all in an environment of fear, uncertainty and recrimination. It broke us.
Every single family I know who truly sought in person childcare, found it.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 16:28
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
Yes, that is from March 2020 to Feb 2021- ish, for many, many people. Some of them losing jobs or running themselves ragged working 2 jobs - teacher/childcare for early elementary age kids plus their day job for 6 months to a year, all in an environment of fear, uncertainty and recrimination. It broke us.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 16:25
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
Yep and my neighborhood was positively booming with people taking loooooong walks and mowing the lawn in the middle of the workday. Even now, people don’t use aftercare any more, they just pick up the kids at 3 and then “work” until 5pm.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 15:35
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.
I posted above but my kid’s preschool opened back up in the fall of 2020. A lot of daycares opened before that. Our public school remained virtual for another 6 months but most/all privates were open. I know a lot of working parents sent their kids to Catholic or private so kids could go to school in person.
Anonymous
09/01/2023 13:53
Subject: Anyone else lose their groove during Covid with young kids and still not have it back?
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:As a mom of older kids, I'm confused why everyone things the pandemic told them something new. Yes the pandemic sucked but we weren't supported before the pandemic either.
Yeah but the pandemic shook up the delicate balance we had to manage. My kids’ preschool closed for a while and then drastically cut hours to put kids in cohorts when they reopened. Then instead of the usual burning through PTO for routine illnesses, we were all hemorrhaging leave for 10 day quarantines often while our kids were perfectly healthy. Or if we were “lucky” told we could catch up on work at night, which isn’t really sustainable. The icing on the cake was the total shutdown of places like playgrounds so we were truly stuck at home going crazy, no play dates, no mom group meetups, etc.
So not only did we not have support, but we also had societal factors coming together to make things even harder.
Some of you act like you were uniquely affected by the pandemic. Talk to families with teens and high school teachers…rampant mental health issues amongst that age group. High school and college years derailed.
Or talk to nursing home personnel (I volunteer at one)….the isolation and feelings of abandonment for many elderly, including people approaching death with no access to loved ones was horrible. I get that many of you are not in a good place, but so are other people. Please stop acting as if you were uniquely victimized by the pandemic. Some of you have no fricken clue.
Please stop telling people how to feel, or rather how they’re allowed to feel, based on the fact that others may have had it worse. (And you truly have no idea the extent to what ANY posters have gone through.) Please try to have a little empathy.
I think that’s what saddens me the most about covid. What a missed opportunity for self-reflection and the development of a more functional, loving, supportive society. Instead, hypercapitalism has run amok and nobody knows how to function “normally” anymore, because it seems there’s no baseline anymore. It’s awful.
What does this actually mean and look like IRL for your average working parent? Free daycares? Relatives babysitting your kids? Long maternity leaves?
I don’t quite get the “support” everyone is saying that they need. Raising kids is hard work and I don’t see how support can make it all that easier. Maternity leave has to eventually end and even a free daycare has its many challenges.
If you want an easier life, be a SAHM but that comes with its own set of challenges.
Did you really just say that you don't understand why people want "support" or how it would make anything easier? WTF?
Yes, I did and I notice you didn’t respond to my specific question.
What does this support look like? My assumption is you want others to provide you with *free labor.*. By others I mean mostly women. You want the government to provide you childcare, grandparents to babysit, neighbors to pitch in, other employees to pick up your slack at work, etc.
It looks like school closures/virtual school strained the fabric of our society past the breaking point.
It was a huge political failure and it should have been avoided at all costs.