It's not that she was a SAHM! It's that she's made bad financial choices all her life. Squandered an inheritance, so let's not be feeling so much pity for her. It's this stupid variable-rate HELOC for example. It's the MLM. It's the getting fired and not even trying to find a new job. If she was simply a SAHM who never earned much, that would be totally different.

Anonymous wrote:OP-- I don't think you or your husband are wrong. You both have valid points and I think the issue is worthy of further discussion. However, I do think you are wrong to judge your MIL's choices so harshly--women simply didn't have the same opportunities in her generation that women have now. They just didn't. They were also paid less for the same work, and daycares/nannies weren't as readily available in times past. For many (most?) women, it would have cost more to put the kids in daycare than they earned, so they stayed home.

There was more discrimination in the workplace, and most women were still expected to do ALL of the home/kid stuff as well as their 9-5. Men simply didn't pitch in at all--which I realize is still a problem, but at least now they know they're expected do even if they don't actually do it.

You admit she is a kind person who sacrificed a lot to raise her kids. You're judging her pretty harshly and through a modern lens when you should be looking back over time and judging her by what was actually available to her in terms of choices and not by what choices are available to you right now. Those are two different things.

My two cents is to give/loan the money, but insist on the transparency in terms of her debts and income. Is there a way you can have her babysit your kids 1 or 2 days a week until they're in preschool or kindergarten to help defray your childcare costs? Or help with the daycare picks up or drop off? Could she pick them up at 3 and take them home and start dinner or do their baths or something to help your evening go smoother? Would a set up like that help you feel better about the money?

That's not gonna work because she's going to babysit SIL's baby. Basically, DH wants to give MIL money so that SIL can have low-cost childcare. Genius plan.

OP-- I don't think you or your husband are wrong. You both have valid points and I think the issue is worthy of further discussion. However, I do think you are wrong to judge your MIL's choices so harshly--women simply didn't have the same opportunities in her generation that women have now. They just didn't. They were also paid less for the same work, and daycares/nannies weren't as readily available in times past. For many (most?) women, it would have cost more to put the kids in daycare than they earned, so they stayed home.

There was more discrimination in the workplace, and most women were still expected to do ALL of the home/kid stuff as well as their 9-5. Men simply didn't pitch in at all--which I realize is still a problem, but at least now they know they're expected do even if they don't actually do it.

You admit she is a kind person who sacrificed a lot to raise her kids. You're judging her pretty harshly and through a modern lens when you should be looking back over time and judging her by what was actually available to her in terms of choices and not by what choices are available to you right now. Those are two different things.

My two cents is to give/loan the money, but insist on the transparency in terms of her debts and income. Is there a way you can have her babysit your kids 1 or 2 days a week until they're in preschool or kindergarten to help defray your childcare costs? Or help with the daycare picks up or drop off? Could she pick them up at 3 and take them home and start dinner or do their baths or something to help your evening go smoother? Would a set up like that help you feel better about the money?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, it's not about out of control spending. It's about not having enough savings, making bad choices, being clueless, and being in denial. OP and her DH will pay. The only question is when and how.

this. Why do people have to be so clueless about how they leave things for their own children?

The MiL is 69 and working low wage jobs. Even if she tried to keep on working, she's at the age where even retail starts saying no

No! She was fired from her job, and she is "working" for an MLM. Which she's probably secretly spent a ton of money buying into. She will come out a net loser. That's how MLMs work.

Sure, but she's at the age where opportunities to work dwindle. High level executives and certain professions can hang on forever, but a 69 year old regular worker gets less employable by the day

If you help her pay off the HELOC she's just going to continue to make dumb decisions and keep them a secret from you. $4K will kick the can down the road, but you'll find out in a year or two that things have gotten a lot worse. The time to intervene is NOW.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I think you should gift her the $4k, but I would let your husband know where you stand on any future assistance after this point. I would have a serious problem with a spouse that stood in my way to gifting this to my own mother - do it for your husband not your MIL.

But why should anyone believe you and your mother wouldn't come back for more? Giving anything at all sets a bad precedent and opens the door to repeated requests. Her financial situation is awful, she makes bad decisions and can't afford her lifestyle, why would anyone believe $4K is the end?

You are different ground with your spouse when you can point out that he agreed to a one time gift in the past than you are never helping in the first place. I don’t agree that this sounds like an out of control spending MIL either.

I don't think it sounds like that either.

I also wouldn't lay down a line about NEVER supporting MIL again because (hopefully) life is long.

I wouldn't lay down that line because it's obvious they and SIL are going to have to pay in the future. If SIL is having a baby she might not have much spare cash. And don't tell me this babysitting "job" is going to work out-- who would hire a babysitter who is unwilling to work or be reliable?

Again, it's not about out of control spending. It's about not having enough savings, making bad choices, being clueless, and being in denial. OP and her DH will pay. The only question is when and how.

Yeah - I guess I'd agree (though using less judgmental language). But I agree that it's not realistic to think that MIL will never need some support again. Life will only get harder as she gets older. We live in a country that hangs the elderly out to dry. I don't think that the $4k should come with strings attached - but I do think that assuming OP's husband is close with his mom, the two of them should have a deep heart to heart about what she is expecting life to look like for the next 15-20 years. And then OP and her husband have to have a heart to hear themselves about the stark reality of what that means for them - not what OP wishes it means, but what it actually means; what the realistic options are. Maybe OP's husband can find out more about why his mother is so reluctant to take on any work now, even if it would improve her life - and if there are any realistic job opportunities for her, even.

It's hard. Life is complicated. Family is complicated. We bring our baggage, people make mistakes, people don't always do the rational man thing and it has consequences - and most kids don't want to see their parents suffer, too.

OP's DH is going to "life is complicated" this family into the poorhouse. Oh, mistakes were made. Right now is the time to attach strings-- the sooner you get MIL on a sustainable trajectory the less money you're going to have to spend on supporting her. There's really no time to lose.

OP, since you can only control yourself, I would insist on financial counseling for your DH (since he probably won't take well to a reality check from you), insist on budget cuts that your DH will really feel rather than blowing your savings, and insist at every turn on full disclosure from MIL and pay bills directly rather than just giving her money. She has proven herself irresponsible and that isn't going to change.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I think you should gift her the $4k, but I would let your husband know where you stand on any future assistance after this point. I would have a serious problem with a spouse that stood in my way to gifting this to my own mother - do it for your husband not your MIL.

But why should anyone believe you and your mother wouldn't come back for more? Giving anything at all sets a bad precedent and opens the door to repeated requests. Her financial situation is awful, she makes bad decisions and can't afford her lifestyle, why would anyone believe $4K is the end?

You are different ground with your spouse when you can point out that he agreed to a one time gift in the past than you are never helping in the first place. I don’t agree that this sounds like an out of control spending MIL either.

I don't think it sounds like that either.

I also wouldn't lay down a line about NEVER supporting MIL again because (hopefully) life is long.

I wouldn't lay down that line because it's obvious they and SIL are going to have to pay in the future. If SIL is having a baby she might not have much spare cash. And don't tell me this babysitting "job" is going to work out-- who would hire a babysitter who is unwilling to work or be reliable?

Again, it's not about out of control spending. It's about not having enough savings, making bad choices, being clueless, and being in denial. OP and her DH will pay. The only question is when and how.

Yeah - I guess I'd agree (though using less judgmental language). But I agree that it's not realistic to think that MIL will never need some support again. Life will only get harder as she gets older. We live in a country that hangs the elderly out to dry. I don't think that the $4k should come with strings attached - but I do think that assuming OP's husband is close with his mom, the two of them should have a deep heart to heart about what she is expecting life to look like for the next 15-20 years. And then OP and her husband have to have a heart to hear themselves about the stark reality of what that means for them - not what OP wishes it means, but what it actually means; what the realistic options are. Maybe OP's husband can find out more about why his mother is so reluctant to take on any work now, even if it would improve her life - and if there are any realistic job opportunities for her, even.

It's hard. Life is complicated. Family is complicated. We bring our baggage, people make mistakes, people don't always do the rational man thing and it has consequences - and most kids don't want to see their parents suffer, too.

Haven’t read the whole thread, so forgive me if I repeat others:

In my experience it is a question whether the “emergency” is real, unexpected and cash flow related (e.g., a tire failed and they need a new one to get to work and they’d eventually be able to pay you back if you needed it), or just another culmination in a long history of financial mismanagement they have no intention of remediating, no matter what they say to the contrary.

Amount matters too. $4,000 isn’t chump change. $25 for mental illness medication is something different.

You also have to consider where this winds up. If the long term result of not stepping in is that she loses her home and has to come live with you, $4,000 may be cheap in comparison.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Again, it's not about out of control spending. It's about not having enough savings, making bad choices, being clueless, and being in denial. OP and her DH will pay. The only question is when and how.

this. Why do people have to be so clueless about how they leave things for their own children?

The MiL is 69 and working low wage jobs. Even if she tried to keep on working, she's at the age where even retail starts saying no

No! She was fired from her job, and she is "working" for an MLM. Which she's probably secretly spent a ton of money buying into. She will come out a net loser. That's how MLMs work.

I’m on your side op mostly because you can insist all you want, but you have no way to prevent mom from saying “oops, I forgot” a bill. You also can’t make the money go where you want it to go either.

Think of insurance, you have it to cover a specific event. You can’t call your car insurance and say “I’ve been a real good driver, I know you have the money, hand me what you’d pay if I wrecked my car.. I haven’t wrecked my car, but I know I won’t, so hand it to me so I can put a new roof on my house”. And, even insurance needs proof that an event actually happened.

My problem with people who hit family and friends up for money is that they know exactly what they’re doing and how to pit people against each other and they don’t care. They also know that once the money is given, they can do whatever they want. Obviously, you can get in a car wreck, get insurance money and *not* replace your car, the point is that you have had to have been in a verifiable car wreck, beyond “Hey insurance, trust me on this okay”

All this being said, think about why you don’t like your mother-in-law, or your husband’s relationship or behavior regarding her. Are you upset that she got to stay home with kids and you don’t? That used to infuriate me when my husband spoke fondly of his stay-at-home while also telling me we couldn’t afford it. I’m home with my kids now.

Does your husband tell you we can’t afford something you want and then he’s happy to hand money over to his mom? That would annoy me too, if we can’t afford something I’d like, then we can’t afford it, but how come we can hand money over to someone else? These are all valid things to bring up.

As for the childcare for your sister, that won’t work out the way you may be thinking. It’s also strange your mother-in-law doesn’t want to work but does want to care for her grandchild. Grandma is very different then being a mom. My mom was shocked at how much things had changed from the time I was a baby to the time when I had kids. I can remember her very sincerely offering to take care of one of my kids when I might have to be away for a for a few weeks and things like the carseat really frustrating her. She said “at that age, I just told you to get your butt in the car” and the thing is, she did.. I remember it.
Stick to your guns, op. $4k is a lot of money but beyond that, it’s the principal and the way you’ll be asked again and again. And, for those of you who talk about tithing, op’s mother-in-law isn’t a church. We belong to a church and we tithe, and I have to say I wonder why every time I see the church tell me it’s my turn to clean the building for free. I pay to have someone clean my house once a month, why would I clean a building for free and not even on my own schedule at that?

Anonymous wrote:

Again, it's not about out of control spending. It's about not having enough savings, making bad choices, being clueless, and being in denial. OP and her DH will pay. The only question is when and how.

this. Why do people have to be so clueless about how they leave things for their own children?

The MiL is 69 and working low wage jobs. Even if she tried to keep on working, she's at the age where even retail starts saying no

Again, it's not about out of control spending. It's about not having enough savings, making bad choices, being clueless, and being in denial. OP and her DH will pay. The only question is when and how.

this. Why do people have to be so clueless about how they leave things for their own children?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I think you should gift her the $4k, but I would let your husband know where you stand on any future assistance after this point. I would have a serious problem with a spouse that stood in my way to gifting this to my own mother - do it for your husband not your MIL.

But why should anyone believe you and your mother wouldn't come back for more? Giving anything at all sets a bad precedent and opens the door to repeated requests. Her financial situation is awful, she makes bad decisions and can't afford her lifestyle, why would anyone believe $4K is the end?

You are different ground with your spouse when you can point out that he agreed to a one time gift in the past than you are never helping in the first place. I don’t agree that this sounds like an out of control spending MIL either.

I don't think it sounds like that either.

I also wouldn't lay down a line about NEVER supporting MIL again because (hopefully) life is long.

I wouldn't lay down that line because it's obvious they and SIL are going to have to pay in the future. If SIL is having a baby she might not have much spare cash. And don't tell me this babysitting "job" is going to work out-- who would hire a babysitter who is unwilling to work or be reliable?

Again, it's not about out of control spending. It's about not having enough savings, making bad choices, being clueless, and being in denial. OP and her DH will pay. The only question is when and how.

Anonymous wrote:Of course OP can make a one time gift of $4k, just like she can refuse it. Agreeing to a one time gift doesn’t obligate her to continue making payments to her MIL.

She's not obligated right now. But the family and marriage guilt trippers are out in force. Why would refusing next time not harm her marriage, do tell. Because next time the MIL's financial situation is going to be worse.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, I think you should gift her the $4k, but I would let your husband know where you stand on any future assistance after this point. I would have a serious problem with a spouse that stood in my way to gifting this to my own mother - do it for your husband not your MIL.

But why should anyone believe you and your mother wouldn't come back for more? Giving anything at all sets a bad precedent and opens the door to repeated requests. Her financial situation is awful, she makes bad decisions and can't afford her lifestyle, why would anyone believe $4K is the end?

You are different ground with your spouse when you can point out that he agreed to a one time gift in the past than you are never helping in the first place. I don’t agree that this sounds like an out of control spending MIL either.

I don't think it sounds like that either.

I also wouldn't lay down a line about NEVER supporting MIL again because (hopefully) life is long.