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Anonymous wrote:Unless you tell us what you said, you are a racist. Bcs not posting what you said means you know it was wrong.

No, it’s protecting my identity. What I said was NOT wrong.

So you say. I had a guy at work rant at me about how he was labeled a racist for saying we are all IMMIGRANTS here unless we are native, and what is racist about that?
Honestly, at this point, you are coming as horribly defensive and a bigot. Narcissist as well.

Are you trying to say the guy at work said something wrong?

Yes, 100%. I am an immigrant here; he is not.I immigrated to this county, whereas his family was colonists. Are we calling colonists immigrants now? No doubt this is op, who is a bigot.

How do you know his family were colonists? Don't assume that is true for all white people.

Bcs he said We Are All Immigrants Here.

My family (poor, uneducated immigrants from Ireland and Germany) immigrated to the US around the turn of the 20th century with nothing. I come from an immigrant family. I'm 4th gen and feel extremely fortunate about the sacrifices they made, but I also don't forget where I came from. If I said the US is "a nation of immigrants" does that make me a colonist and a bigot?

Yes. Bcs you have been a U.S. citizen for over a century. And North America was colonized and invaded. As mentioned, Anglos did not call the Vikings immigrants. There is a vast difference between you and me. I immigrated here during my lifetime. You have NOT. Nor was there such a thing as a poor "immigrant" around the turn of the 19 to 20 centuries. They had money to leave.
I will never been see as an American, even though I have been one since 1996. You know it, I know it, all the people here know it. So, enough with your BS. You are not an immigrant. Long ago, your ancestors took a ship here, not you. Facts matter. Nation of immigrants, a nation of invaders, a nation of colonists, not we are all immigrants here.

I will bite. You are right, despite being here for 27 years, I do not consider you an American. If you come to this country and denigrate its people, history and institutions, you are not an American. You are here solely to take from its economy, which makes you a leech, not a citizen. Change your tune and you will be welcomed.

+1000

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Anonymous wrote:Unless you tell us what you said, you are a racist. Bcs not posting what you said means you know it was wrong.

No, it’s protecting my identity. What I said was NOT wrong.

So you say. I had a guy at work rant at me about how he was labeled a racist for saying we are all IMMIGRANTS here unless we are native, and what is racist about that?
Honestly, at this point, you are coming as horribly defensive and a bigot. Narcissist as well.

Are you trying to say the guy at work said something wrong?

Yes, 100%. I am an immigrant here; he is not.I immigrated to this county, whereas his family was colonists. Are we calling colonists immigrants now? No doubt this is op, who is a bigot.

How do you know his family were colonists? Don't assume that is true for all white people.

Bcs he said We Are All Immigrants Here.

My family (poor, uneducated immigrants from Ireland and Germany) immigrated to the US around the turn of the 20th century with nothing. I come from an immigrant family. I'm 4th gen and feel extremely fortunate about the sacrifices they made, but I also don't forget where I came from. If I said the US is "a nation of immigrants" does that make me a colonist and a bigot?

Yes. Bcs you have been a U.S. citizen for over a century. And North America was colonized and invaded. As mentioned, Anglos did not call the Vikings immigrants. There is a vast difference between you and me. I immigrated here during my lifetime. You have NOT. Nor was there such a thing as a poor "immigrant" around the turn of the 19 to 20 centuries. They had money to leave.
I will never been see as an American, even though I have been one since 1996. You know it, I know it, all the people here know it. So, enough with your BS. You are not an immigrant. Long ago, your ancestors took a ship here, not you. Facts matter. Nation of immigrants, a nation of invaders, a nation of colonists, not we are all immigrants here.

LOL you are a kook who cares nothing about reality. But you take bugs out on paper, so you're good.

https://allthatsinteresting.com/new-york-immigrants-photos

Anonymous wrote:I've had people call me racist and I couldn't care less. It's the thing these days among woke white people to label everyone and everything as, racist. Taking up the fight for black people that no none of them asked them to do. The many black people I work with or are my friends would never call me racist. Let it go. They are idiots.

Oh here we go, my BLACK friend from work.... hence I am not racist. Your whole post here is racist.

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Anonymous wrote:Unless you tell us what you said, you are a racist. Bcs not posting what you said means you know it was wrong.

No, it’s protecting my identity. What I said was NOT wrong.

So you say. I had a guy at work rant at me about how he was labeled a racist for saying we are all IMMIGRANTS here unless we are native, and what is racist about that?
Honestly, at this point, you are coming as horribly defensive and a bigot. Narcissist as well.

Are you trying to say the guy at work said something wrong?

Yes, 100%. I am an immigrant here; he is not.I immigrated to this county, whereas his family was colonists. Are we calling colonists immigrants now? No doubt this is op, who is a bigot.

How do you know his family were colonists? Don't assume that is true for all white people.

Bcs he said We Are All Immigrants Here.

My family (poor, uneducated immigrants from Ireland and Germany) immigrated to the US around the turn of the 20th century with nothing. I come from an immigrant family. I'm 4th gen and feel extremely fortunate about the sacrifices they made, but I also don't forget where I came from. If I said the US is "a nation of immigrants" does that make me a colonist and a bigot?

Yes. Bcs you have been a U.S. citizen for over a century. And North America was colonized and invaded. As mentioned, Anglos did not call the Vikings immigrants. There is a vast difference between you and me. I immigrated here during my lifetime. You have NOT. Nor was there such a thing as a poor "immigrant" around the turn of the 19 to 20 centuries. They had money to leave.
I will never been see as an American, even though I have been one since 1996. You know it, I know it, all the people here know it. So, enough with your BS. You are not an immigrant. Long ago, your ancestors took a ship here, not you. Facts matter. Nation of immigrants, a nation of invaders, a nation of colonists, not we are all immigrants here.

I didn't say I was an immigrant. I said that I might say "we are a nation of immigrants" and that one reason I feel that to be true is that my own family immigrated here not that long ago and my family history is one of immigration. My family experienced discrimination and poverty when they moved here. I have a great great grandmother who worked, and died, as an indentured servant (she still "owed" her employer for her passage when she died at 29). I'm not claiming "immigrant" as a descriptor for me, but my family were (and definitely not colonists or invaders). It's pretty clear my family came here looking for opportunity and freedom, not to conquer anything. You know, immigrants.

I'm not even sure how I feel about the phrase "nation of immigrants" because, for instance, it does not account for the many people whose family were brought her forcibly as slaves. But I also don't find it offensive as a term and I generally think the intention behind it is a positive one. To return to the subject of this thread, I think "cancelling" someone for using this phrase would be incredibly wrong-headed. I do think it's different than actual prejudice/racism and that you could have a productive conversation with someone about this kind of disagreement. To me, cancellation indicates that there is no point in engaging, but I think these are situations where engagement is actually desirable -- maybe we all learn something and are better people for it.

Nobody was canceled for this phrases. Nor fired. However, that person still feels wrong that this was not "kosher' with recent immigrants and feels that they wronged him. Hence the whole issue. He started the topic and was then told, please don't say that, and then he is still a victim. That is what is the crux of the problematic language behavior here.

In Canada, workplace discrimination is very common, and they, for example, are not open to even debating it. They narrow the applicant pool by asking for "years of Canadian" experience" for how many years. People can't get jobs BCS they just arrived to Canada. Then 10 years later, they still can't get it bcs they worked at the Indian Embassy. Then, they can't get the job in the field they are now certified for in Canada, BCS they do not have... Canadian work experience as they were in school! What it does is prolong social and economic inequality in a country that (you might agree with this) tries to lord it over the U.S. about how open and accepting of immigrants they are. (I worked there and know a lot about it.)

Additionally, the Canadian government and job placement companies have instructions to immigrants about accepting that they need to be okay with a lower position and lower paying wages than those born in Canada. Instead of having initiatives to overcome discrimination in the work place, they are enforcing it. They even have examples, such as "If you were an engineer in India, you should accept that you could be a greeter at Costco." I am not saying they should go from doctor in Zimbabwe to doctor in Canada, as certifications and such things need to be followed. Still, I hope you can see how messed up and discriminatory their attitude is towards immigrants.

At least here on dcum, I can discuss it, and while it is discouraging that many do not accept the premise that if you do not know what is discriminatory, you can't know if you are engaged in it, some at least are aware that what OP said might have been offensive.

I've had people call me racist and I couldn't care less. It's the thing these days among woke white people to label everyone and everything as, racist. Taking up the fight for black people that no none of them asked them to do. The many black people I work with or are my friends would never call me racist. Let it go. They are idiots.

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Anonymous wrote:OP I think what happened to you is that everyone already didn’t like you, for whatever reason. People who are liked and respected don’t get “canceled” for one mistake or ill-considered comment. If these were your colleagues, there was already a problem.

This is not true. There are many people who are bound to an orthodoxy (worse than any religion) that makes them cut off friends and family who violate any facet of their beliefs. Just watched a bizarre situation when we hosted some of my son's friends for Spring Break. We had a policy discussion over dinner on cartel violence at the border and two of them spent an entire day crying in a bedroom. I want to say that "you are an adult now, use your words to make a policy argument." But somehow that discussion was so egregious that he has been cut-off as being "anti-immigrant" by those two after four years of friendship (and hosting them). So just think of how little co-workers could value you.

I said to a friend over Spring Break that I don't believe in disengaging from people who hold different views. He looked stunned and said, "you don't?" I said no but offered no explanation and he changed the subject. Even tolerance is taboo these days.

What level of disagreement tho?

I'm not going to speak to people who actively support laws that oppress me (I'm gay). That means that person fundamentally opposes my right to exist. Now, I also won't punch them or TP their house. I just won't ever speak to them.

Now, we know that dcum is full of Trumpers who fake being woke and that all of you are responsible for continuation of racism in this country.

Anonymous wrote:Actually, I accepted people with different beliefs pre Jan 6th. Afterwards? Not so much, as it was obvious they don't believe in democracy.

I'm not even sure we are talking about people with different beliefs in that way. OP says they are not a bigot, but the J6 people are.

I certainly would not be accepting of someone who participated in J6 or even supported it as a concept -- it was a criminal attempt to overthrow a free and fair election, and many/most of the organizers had racist and/or xenophobic reasons for doing so. I do agree that's beyond a point of acceptance.

But to say "I no longer accept people with different beliefs than me after J6" is VERY EXTREME. I still have a good friend who is a Republican (or, is conservative, they would not align themselves with todays' Republican Party). This is a very good person who I think is wrong headed on some political opinions. But we agree on the big points (they also think J6 was a coup and those people should go to prison, and also they are not bigoted towards POC, LGBTQ+, etc.). We mostly just disagree on economic policy and some foreign policy stuff. It honestly is not a big deal and I'm so glad our friendship has survived the last 10 years of political because it's a friendship I really value. Fortunately, this is someone who never was on board with Trump nor voted for him (they did vote for McCain and Romney).

I also have some family members who are Trump voters and while I cannot countenance their politics and choose to keep my distance for that reason, I also know them to be loving and good parents, kind-hearted community members, etc. None of them participated in the more extreme aspects of Trumpism, though they did vote for him and contributed to it. I refuse to write them off as people and continue to see them at family events and am kind and talk to them. I want to leave open the option for them to come to their senses on Trump and what he does because I know them to have other good qualities to indicate that they do possess empathy and humanity. I think they are misguided and also they have been somewhat brainwashed by where they live and the media they consume. I do worry that one day I will see them and that empathy and humanity will be gone. But I hold out hope.

When we simply shut people down or out for disagreeing with us, we ourselves are not acting in belief or defense of democracy. In a democracy, there will always be people on the right side of the political spectrum. I will always be on the left side. And I can't accept Nazis or similar into my life. But I will always try to make room for everyone else because I think that diversity of opinion is essential to a free society, and also helps to hold me accountable for my own beliefs and actions (it's so easy to develop huge blindspots when you never expose yourself to someone who disagrees with you -- I think my conservative friend and I keep each other honest in this way).

Unless your plan is to literally expel conservatives from the country (which I would not support, ever, because who knows, maybe one day you'll decide I'm not liberal enough, and hey, didn't I used to be friends and related to some of those conservatives? maybe I'm a collaborator), you need to find some way to tell the actual fringe, coup-causing crazies apart from the people with whom you simply disagree, and find a way to co-exist.

Actually, I accepted people with different beliefs pre Jan 6th. Afterwards? Not so much, as it was obvious they don't believe in democracy.

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:OP I think what happened to you is that everyone already didn’t like you, for whatever reason. People who are liked and respected don’t get “canceled” for one mistake or ill-considered comment. If these were your colleagues, there was already a problem.

This is not true. There are many people who are bound to an orthodoxy (worse than any religion) that makes them cut off friends and family who violate any facet of their beliefs. Just watched a bizarre situation when we hosted some of my son's friends for Spring Break. We had a policy discussion over dinner on cartel violence at the border and two of them spent an entire day crying in a bedroom. I want to say that "you are an adult now, use your words to make a policy argument." But somehow that discussion was so egregious that he has been cut-off as being "anti-immigrant" by those two after four years of friendship (and hosting them). So just think of how little co-workers could value you.

I said to a friend over Spring Break that I don't believe in disengaging from people who hold different views. He looked stunned and said, "you don't?" I said no but offered no explanation and he changed the subject. Even tolerance is taboo these days.

I mean… it depends. I know a person who believes that interracial relationships/marriage is wrong. We disagree on a fundamental level. Our conversations are very surface only.

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Anonymous wrote:Op…

Did you apologize? Acknowledge the (real or performative) hurt feelings?

Obviously I wasn’t there and I don’t know the dynamics of your workplace but I worked with someone in the past who had a similar situation.

She made a comment that was relatively benign but someone reported it. It wasn’t the comment but many other comments she had made in the past coupled with the types of things she posts on social media. The comment wasn’t offensive on its own but in the context of all the other things, it was.

She asked me for advice and I told her to apologize and do better. Even though she felt that she hadn’t done anything wrong, she was going to have to apologize to get certain coworkers off the warpath.

OP here. Interesting comment. Some context (again, I’m being careful here to protect my anonymity).

I did attempt to apologize to the person who raised the issue, a colleague at my level. That was at the beginning, when I thought it was a genuine allegation based on what I assumed was a misunderstanding. They refused to speak with me. No complaint was ever filed against me, it was all done via informal gossip. A major issue was that the person complaining had many close friends in this workplace, and while I was friendly with many people, I was not particularly close to anyone. This allowed the rumors to spread pretty unchecked. I also made the mistake initially if declining to discuss it or defend myself the first couple times I had the opportunity, because it was raised with me as idle gossip (“I heard there’s some drama between you and [X], what’s that about?” I honestly thought I was being respectful to the other person by not engaging with people in the subject. I only learned later that this just resulted in making me look guilty because people assumed I didn’t want to discuss it because was wrong. But actually I was dying to discuss it because it felt so unfair to me, but I viewed that as an immature impulse and tried to avoid the gossip mill.

There was no formal complaint or investigation, so no opportunity for me to provide context and get actual feedback. Maybe if that had happened I would I been able to better understand how or why my words had been taken out of context and be able to apologize in a real way for anything I’d done to contribute to harm or misunderstanding. I’ve since come to believe there was no misunderstanding, and no formal complaint/investigation specifically because it would have given me a chance to explain and the explanation would very obviously undermine the narrative.

It was done entirely through gossip, mostly spread outside work via socializing. But my name was mud, and many people simply associated me with mess and drama— it wasn’t about the underlying supposed offense.

If this had been handled with direct conversation and a chance to apologize, it would be a very different story. They didn’t want to fix the perceived problem. They wanted an excuse to smear my name in a way that gave me no chance to defend myself.

Well in that case, yes, they just wanted you out. I’ve worked in a place like that before. I had a good relationship with my coworkers (small office) and one day one of them googled me. Then all hell broke loose and they started being really weird and standoffish. I asked one person what was up and she told me what they had found and that i should just let it Peter out. After a few months, I left because they were just still being mean to me. Well honestly, not so much mean as in outright hostile but more just passive aggressive and cold. I can’t help my family name and where I come from so I left and went to a place with coworkers who 1. Didn’t google me, and 2. Wouldn’t have cared if they did. The coworkers in the original place were just catty.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What's with all the weird "cancelled" threads lately?

They read like they are all written by the same.person..

Clearly it’s the same 1-2 people starting the threads. They do a terrible job of disguising their writing style.

I don't get that impression at all. This is clearly a different PP than the one about the cancelled teen -- they don't sound at all the same to me and also this thread is actually about being cancelled whereas the other thread is really about dealing with a teen whose being bullied and excluded but because the OP used the term "cancelled" in the title, people are fixating on that and making lots of assumptions about what happened. That thread only became about being cancelled because of how people interpreted the title -- OP doesn't even really address it in their comments on the thread and is more focused on helping her kid.

Anonymous wrote:What's with all the weird "cancelled" threads lately?

They read like they are all written by the same.person..

Clearly it’s the same 1-2 people starting the threads. They do a terrible job of disguising their writing style.

Apologies generally don't work if you're dealing with a group situation. Ultimately, they show weakness that people pretending to take offense in bad faith will exploit.

If you're dealing with a one-on-one situation where you've genuinely hurt someone (purposefully or not), then apologies can be useful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP I think what happened to you is that everyone already didn’t like you, for whatever reason. People who are liked and respected don’t get “canceled” for one mistake or ill-considered comment. If these were your colleagues, there was already a problem.

This is not true. There are many people who are bound to an orthodoxy (worse than any religion) that makes them cut off friends and family who violate any facet of their beliefs. Just watched a bizarre situation when we hosted some of my son's friends for Spring Break. We had a policy discussion over dinner on cartel violence at the border and two of them spent an entire day crying in a bedroom. I want to say that "you are an adult now, use your words to make a policy argument." But somehow that discussion was so egregious that he has been cut-off as being "anti-immigrant" by those two after four years of friendship (and hosting them). So just think of how little co-workers could value you.

I said to a friend over Spring Break that I don't believe in disengaging from people who hold different views. He looked stunned and said, "you don't?" I said no but offered no explanation and he changed the subject. Even tolerance is taboo these days.