Anonymous
03/27/2023 18:54
Subject: Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Perspective from a student:
1. I don't like that every class has a different grading policy.
2. Some teachers really stress that certain assignments are mandatory (even though they aren't graded). They really try to get us to do the assignments. Other teachers do not push the idea of "mandatory" assignments.
3. (Me: how has your in-class experience changed from prior years when there was a different grading policy -- when homework/practice was given a grade vs. SBG where it isn't graded) Student: It's pretty much the same. There have always been people who don't do the preparation work for class.
4. (Me: the reason I'm asking about SBG is b/c some people are complaining about it.) Student: well, you should argue against them (meaning Student LIKES SBG better than previous system).
5. Student: If you know how to do something, then you don't need to do the practice. But, if you are not doing well on the assessments, then that's on you for choosing not to do the practice work.
6: Me: Do people NOT do retakes much anymore b/c they know there will be another chance to be assessed on a skill? Student: People still do lots of retakes (in classes where retakes are allowed).
__________________
In some sense, SBG gives the student MORE control over how they engage in the learning process. Some kids like that, and it works for them.
1. I don't like that every class has a different grading policy.
2. Some teachers really stress that certain assignments are mandatory (even though they aren't graded). They really try to get us to do the assignments. Other teachers do not push the idea of "mandatory" assignments.
3. (Me: how has your in-class experience changed from prior years when there was a different grading policy -- when homework/practice was given a grade vs. SBG where it isn't graded) Student: It's pretty much the same. There have always been people who don't do the preparation work for class.
4. (Me: the reason I'm asking about SBG is b/c some people are complaining about it.) Student: well, you should argue against them (meaning Student LIKES SBG better than previous system).
5. Student: If you know how to do something, then you don't need to do the practice. But, if you are not doing well on the assessments, then that's on you for choosing not to do the practice work.
6: Me: Do people NOT do retakes much anymore b/c they know there will be another chance to be assessed on a skill? Student: People still do lots of retakes (in classes where retakes are allowed).
__________________
In some sense, SBG gives the student MORE control over how they engage in the learning process. Some kids like that, and it works for them.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 17:10
Subject: Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:A couple months ago Washington Post’s Jay Matthews cautioned against the rush to standards based grading:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/12/18/student-standards-based-grading/
Matthews advocates the following approach:
"Supporting the best teachers and spreading their methods to others, classroom by classroom, has worked for schools that have focused on that. But it takes flexibility and common sense, rarely found in our big plans that never seem to achieve the promised results."
https://davidlabaree.com/2021/04/26/jay-mathews-why-plans-to-raise-educational-standards-will-never-work/
This article include's a book review by Matthews of a book that discusses the failure of common core. I think the following quote sums ups how I feel about skills-based grading because once again we are spending money and time on something with no evidence to support that it works and it has nothing to do with better teaching.
"Loveless takes a speculative journey at the end. What if, he asked, all that money spent on Common Core had been devoted to “discovering new, more powerful ways of teaching and creating new, more effective curricula?”
“Fractions are like a gigantic wall that kids hit in fourth, fifth and sixth grades; some crawl over, but many do not,” he wrote. What if that Common Core money had instead funded “dozens of experiments to discover new curricular materials and new ways of teaching fractions, field tested new programs in randomized trials, and then disseminated the findings broadly?”
Anonymous
03/27/2023 16:59
Subject: Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:A couple months ago Washington Post’s Jay Matthews cautioned against the rush to standards based grading:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2022/12/18/student-standards-based-grading/
Matthews advocates the following approach:
"Supporting the best teachers and spreading their methods to others, classroom by classroom, has worked for schools that have focused on that. But it takes flexibility and common sense, rarely found in our big plans that never seem to achieve the promised results."
https://davidlabaree.com/2021/04/26/jay-mathews-why-plans-to-raise-educational-standards-will-never-work/
Anonymous
03/27/2023 16:40
Subject: Re:Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:Lawsuits, have to move to private, "giving another year of your life for this...!" So much hyperbole and drama. My goodness.
If your kids need to do the practice assignments to understand the concepts, then tell your kids to DO the practice assignments! Not everyone does need to do a lot of work outside of the class.
Are you a teacher? I am. I want all the students to do the work during my class. I put an enormous amount of work into my lesson plans and the quizzes I give in class give me feedback about what the students are learning and information about what I need to reteach or if I need to reteach. At Madison, where kids now regularly fail the quizzes, I wouldn't be able to do this. Groups of kids that decide they don't want to work sit around and talk and have a serious impact on everyone else in the class.
What do you think these kids are doing if they decide they don't need to do the work in class?
My kids tell me that class is less interesting now, no one is prepared to have interesting conversations about the topic because they haven't done the work, kids talk and look at their phones, ect.... I said this earlier.
PLEASE read more carefully! I said "not everyone needs to do a lot of work OUTSIDE OF THE CLASS" (i.e. homework). Of course, it is the teacher's job to engage the kids IN class, and it is the kids' job to participate IN class.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 15:20
Subject: Re:Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:My son is in a math class with a teacher that doesn't believe in retakes. I've heard other teachers allow them. This is annoying to me that even in the same class some teachers are allowing retakes and others not. Just have one policy for the school.
Yes, there are (often huge) discrepancies among various sections of the same course based on the teacher, never mind from one academic department to another.
Also, some departments are changing things on the fly. Both the English and Math departments issued policy changes (at least, DCs teachers said they were departmental changes) around midyear regarding retakes, homework, and other items. No, all of those things don't necessarily have huge impact but the fact that someone felt the need to make changes seems highly indicative, at least to
me, of the poor implementation of SBG. No one seems clear on the rules or made sure before implementing them that they'd benefit students.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 14:19
Subject: Re:Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:Lawsuits, have to move to private, "giving another year of your life for this...!" So much hyperbole and drama. My goodness.
If your kids need to do the practice assignments to understand the concepts, then tell your kids to DO the practice assignments! Not everyone does need to do a lot of work outside of the class.
We are talking about the practice in class that’s no longer counted. Not homework.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 13:56
Subject: Re:Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Lawsuits, have to move to private, "giving another year of your life for this...!" So much hyperbole and drama. My goodness.
If your kids need to do the practice assignments to understand the concepts, then tell your kids to DO the practice assignments! Not everyone does need to do a lot of work outside of the class.
Are you a teacher? I am. I want all the students to do the work during my class. I put an enormous amount of work into my lesson plans and the quizzes I give in class give me feedback about what the students are learning and information about what I need to reteach or if I need to reteach. At Madison, where kids now regularly fail the quizzes, I wouldn't be able to do this. Groups of kids that decide they don't want to work sit around and talk and have a serious impact on everyone else in the class.
What do you think these kids are doing if they decide they don't need to do the work in class?
My kids tell me that class is less interesting now, no one is prepared to have interesting conversations about the topic because they haven't done the work, kids talk and look at their phones, ect.... I said this earlier.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 13:55
Subject: Re:Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Before this change, no one complained about grades at Madison as a policy.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 12:58
Subject: Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My issue is with the idea that some kids are eligible for retakes while others are not. I bet if kids with lower D/F grades were stuck with what they received, this system would be scrapped.
As it is, kids who do poorly get a retake and kids that do well enough don’t. This is where the gap closure happens and where fewer As happen. As with any equitable system, it’s not about providing the same tools for all, it’s about giving some kids more… mostly to supplement what someone earlier mentioned, a “parenting problem.”
If this is actually true, they would be in HUGE trouble. I doubt it is true, otherwise they'll have a bunch of state lawsuits to deal with in the current political environment.
If they allow retakes on certain assignments, they have to allow it for everyone. They can't selectively discriminate in terms of who they allow to retest.
Hard to say.
Madison states the following:
Teachers will identify in advance which summative assessments are eligible for a retake. For these assessments, at least one new opportunity to demonstrate mastery shall be provided to any student who scores below 3.4 on a 4.0 scale or 90% on the 100 point scale (less than an A-) and completes corrective action determined by the subject team. Assessments not eligible for a retake will be articulated in a teacher’s course syllabi.
Some posts ITT imply that it’s like that as well, but maybe not as decisive as the statement I included.
Earlier in the thread, there was a discussion that individual assignments do not receive +/-, only overall grades. But the above Madison statement references an A- on an assessment. How to reconcile? If they don't give +/- on assessments/assignments, could this retake issue be one reason? If students only receive an A with no +/-, there is no potential benefit of retake for anyone scoring 90 or above.
That may be the case and a mess up in their messaging or realization of this unfair policy? I do think PP makes a good point about teachers being given this discretion. It should be standard for the department.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 12:37
Subject: Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My issue is with the idea that some kids are eligible for retakes while others are not. I bet if kids with lower D/F grades were stuck with what they received, this system would be scrapped.
As it is, kids who do poorly get a retake and kids that do well enough don’t. This is where the gap closure happens and where fewer As happen. As with any equitable system, it’s not about providing the same tools for all, it’s about giving some kids more… mostly to supplement what someone earlier mentioned, a “parenting problem.”
If this is actually true, they would be in HUGE trouble. I doubt it is true, otherwise they'll have a bunch of state lawsuits to deal with in the current political environment.
If they allow retakes on certain assignments, they have to allow it for everyone. They can't selectively discriminate in terms of who they allow to retest.
I think when it becomes obvious that SBG is a huge failure you may see lawsuits. Perhaps this is more likely to happen at a more diverse school when parents get fed up. My kids have tutoring, and I’m already thinking of other ways to make up for the shortfall of not counting practice in class and although I don’t want to spend the money on private, we will do what we have to do. This time is critical for my family. And I’m supposed to give another year for this because it’s supposed to be better after teachers get more training? No thanks.
. Lawsuits, have to move to private, "giving another year of your life for this...!" So much hyperbole and drama. My goodness.
If your kids need to do the practice assignments to understand the concepts, then tell your kids to DO the practice assignments! Not everyone does need to do a lot of work outside of the class.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 11:37
Subject: Re:Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
My son is in a math class with a teacher that doesn't believe in retakes. I've heard other teachers allow them. This is annoying to me that even in the same class some teachers are allowing retakes and others not. Just have one policy for the school.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 11:24
Subject: Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My issue is with the idea that some kids are eligible for retakes while others are not. I bet if kids with lower D/F grades were stuck with what they received, this system would be scrapped.
As it is, kids who do poorly get a retake and kids that do well enough don’t. This is where the gap closure happens and where fewer As happen. As with any equitable system, it’s not about providing the same tools for all, it’s about giving some kids more… mostly to supplement what someone earlier mentioned, a “parenting problem.”
If this is actually true, they would be in HUGE trouble. I doubt it is true, otherwise they'll have a bunch of state lawsuits to deal with in the current political environment.
If they allow retakes on certain assignments, they have to allow it for everyone. They can't selectively discriminate in terms of who they allow to retest.
Hard to say.
Madison states the following:
Teachers will identify in advance which summative assessments are eligible for a retake. For these assessments, at least one new opportunity to demonstrate mastery shall be provided to any student who scores below 3.4 on a 4.0 scale or 90% on the 100 point scale (less than an A-) and completes corrective action determined by the subject team. Assessments not eligible for a retake will be articulated in a teacher’s course syllabi.
Some posts ITT imply that it’s like that as well, but maybe not as decisive as the statement I included.
Earlier in the thread, there was a discussion that individual assignments do not receive +/-, only overall grades. But the above Madison statement references an A- on an assessment. How to reconcile? If they don't give +/- on assessments/assignments, could this retake issue be one reason? If students only receive an A with no +/-, there is no potential benefit of retake for anyone scoring 90 or above.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 11:16
Subject: Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My issue is with the idea that some kids are eligible for retakes while others are not. I bet if kids with lower D/F grades were stuck with what they received, this system would be scrapped.
As it is, kids who do poorly get a retake and kids that do well enough don’t. This is where the gap closure happens and where fewer As happen. As with any equitable system, it’s not about providing the same tools for all, it’s about giving some kids more… mostly to supplement what someone earlier mentioned, a “parenting problem.”
If this is actually true, they would be in HUGE trouble. I doubt it is true, otherwise they'll have a bunch of state lawsuits to deal with in the current political environment.
If they allow retakes on certain assignments, they have to allow it for everyone. They can't selectively discriminate in terms of who they allow to retest.
Hard to say.
Madison states the following:
Teachers will identify in advance which summative assessments are eligible for a retake. For these assessments, at least one new opportunity to demonstrate mastery shall be provided to any student who scores below 3.4 on a 4.0 scale or 90% on the 100 point scale (less than an A-) and completes corrective action determined by the subject team. Assessments not eligible for a retake will be articulated in a teacher’s course syllabi.
Some posts ITT imply that it’s like that as well, but maybe not as decisive as the statement I included.
A-/90% is fine, that seems reasonable to me. But honestly it's easy to just allow everyone to retake the ones that the teacher selects to protect against possible lawsuits. It would not change outcomes at the top as many of the A- students would not think it's worth their time to retake to change from A- to A. Logistically it's also easy, there's no reason to exclude a few A- and above, as even if they retake and get an A, it's only good for the school as their overall grade is a bit higher.
With so few grades, that minus counts more than it normally would. This could result in more B+ for high achieving kids. This small distinction is a positive notch in gap closure when tied to retake policies for everyone else. Add in the soft skill evaluation removal for even larger gap reduction.
People that create these systems aren’t dumb, but they fully expect everyone else to be.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 11:16
Subject: Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My issue is with the idea that some kids are eligible for retakes while others are not. I bet if kids with lower D/F grades were stuck with what they received, this system would be scrapped.
As it is, kids who do poorly get a retake and kids that do well enough don’t. This is where the gap closure happens and where fewer As happen. As with any equitable system, it’s not about providing the same tools for all, it’s about giving some kids more… mostly to supplement what someone earlier mentioned, a “parenting problem.”
If this is actually true, they would be in HUGE trouble. I doubt it is true, otherwise they'll have a bunch of state lawsuits to deal with in the current political environment.
If they allow retakes on certain assignments, they have to allow it for everyone. They can't selectively discriminate in terms of who they allow to retest.
I think when it becomes obvious that SBG is a huge failure you may see lawsuits. Perhaps this is more likely to happen at a more diverse school when parents get fed up. My kids have tutoring, and I’m already thinking of other ways to make up for the shortfall of not counting practice in class and although I don’t want to spend the money on private, we will do what we have to do. This time is critical for my family. And I’m supposed to give another year for this because it’s supposed to be better after teachers get more training? No thanks.
Anonymous
03/27/2023 11:15
Subject: Madison H.S. Parents - Principal Survey and Skills-Based Grading
Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:Anonymous wrote:My issue is with the idea that some kids are eligible for retakes while others are not. I bet if kids with lower D/F grades were stuck with what they received, this system would be scrapped.
As it is, kids who do poorly get a retake and kids that do well enough don’t. This is where the gap closure happens and where fewer As happen. As with any equitable system, it’s not about providing the same tools for all, it’s about giving some kids more… mostly to supplement what someone earlier mentioned, a “parenting problem.”
If this is actually true, they would be in HUGE trouble. I doubt it is true, otherwise they'll have a bunch of state lawsuits to deal with in the current political environment.
If they allow retakes on certain assignments, they have to allow it for everyone. They can't selectively discriminate in terms of who they allow to retest.
Hard to say.
Madison states the following:
Teachers will identify in advance which summative assessments are eligible for a retake. For these assessments, at least one new opportunity to demonstrate mastery shall be provided to any student who scores below 3.4 on a 4.0 scale or 90% on the 100 point scale (less than an A-) and completes corrective action determined by the subject team. Assessments not eligible for a retake will be articulated in a teacher’s course syllabi.
Some posts ITT imply that it’s like that as well, but maybe not as decisive as the statement I included.
A-/90% is fine, that seems reasonable to me. But honestly it's easy to just allow everyone to retake the ones that the teacher selects to protect against possible lawsuits. It would not change outcomes at the top as many of the A- students would not think it's worth their time to retake to change from A- to A. Logistically it's also easy, there's no reason to exclude a few A- and above, as even if they retake and get an A, it's only good for the school as their overall grade is a bit higher.
To add to this, it does seem that this change is being overblown when I read this thread. Maybe the main issue is that students are demotivated and unwilling to do any work, thereby procrastinating and shooting themselves in the foot by the time the graded assessments are given out? From a grade point of view there should not be an issue if everyone is allowed an option to retake to show mastery if they want to improve.