Anonymous wrote:I understand that this is a real thing based on a societal expectation carried over from a time when most women didn’t work outside the home. What I don’t understand is why women like those on DCUM allow this to persist. You recognize it’s happening and yet you keep doing it? Why?

Because our children suffer the chaos if we just drop the rope. Or we have to prod and remind our husbands for each small contribution they grudgingly make, which means we're still carrying the mental load.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The mental load placed on women is perpetuated by gender-based expectations of a variety of parties, from parents, to health care providers to school staff, which always call the mother any time there is a problem at school.

If you aren’t smart enough to give them only your spose’s name and number, you deserve it

I do give them DH number. They always call the wife first. One of our friends is a stay at home dad-even he noticed this. He had to fight hard to become the default. Another example: how many men’s rooms have a baby changing station in them? Why is that? Again women are viewed as default parent and carry a lot more of caregiving and mental load

🤣🤣🤣 they always always call the mom. I've gotten calls to come get a sick kid while I'm miles away and in an OR performing surgery while my DH is working from home within walking distance. And when I get the message I have to be the one to call DH to go get the kid. They hadn't even tried to call him and they definitely have his phone number on file. Forking ridiculous

Our school in MCPS always calls my husband, I have him listed first and clearly noted to call him. He carries an equal mental load too. But I understand our set ups are more unique.

Anonymous wrote:I have heard of "2nd Shift," which explains the extra work women take on at home. I have also heard of "cognitive load theory," which is the amount of new learning or new information a learner can process at one time.

"Mental load" sounds like DCUM wives realizing their DHs might have some "executive functioning" issues. That's not unusual for a region of the country where people wait so long to marry and start a family.

No, it actually means the "mental" part, as opposed to the "execution" part. It's even less quantifiable than second shift, which usually means cooking, cleaning and childcare. "Mental load" is the planning, remembering, researching, delegating. Worrying. The feeling that's described as having "too many tabs open." You know it if you've experienced it.

I have heard of "2nd Shift," which explains the extra work women take on at home. I have also heard of "cognitive load theory," which is the amount of new learning or new information a learner can process at one time.

"Mental load" sounds like DCUM wives realizing their DHs might have some "executive functioning" issues. That's not unusual for a region of the country where people wait so long to marry and start a family.

Anonymous wrote:I fully respect the concept of the mental load - it is real.

What bothers me about most mental load conversations is it often sounds like working moms reinventing the wheel. We actually had a time where women stayed home and it was understood that what they were doing was important and time consuming. Then in the 70s-90s it was decided that women at home were doing nothing/"baking cookies and having teas." NOW working moms have "discovered" everyting involved with taking care of kids and household and have to tell everyone about it.

What? No. This doesn't even have to be a 'mom' thing. A friend of mine, when she started her first post-law school position (so we were both pre-marriage, pre-kids) told me about running into a senior partner in the break room getting his lunch from the fridge. She asked what he had packed and his response was, "oh, I never know, my wife packs my lunch every day." The dominant paradigm for SO LONG was that anyone (read: men) working full-time had a support spouse at home, especially if there was a house, pet, and/or kid(s) involved.

I really appreciate the posts about how these attitudes get hard wired into people through generations and it's so hard to undo.

It reminds me of a conversation I had with my SIL many years ago. She was talking about how hard it was for her that my brother (her DH) worked for our dad. My dad was super demanding and was constantly asking my brother to do things outside working hours -- nights, weekends. My brother kept explaining to him that he wasn't free during those time because he had household and parenting duties, and my dad just didn't get it. When were were kids, my dad worked insane hours but that's because my mom did everything else for the house and their kids. My dad didn't even understand what there was to be done because he was focused on other things. But my SIL had a serious FT job. She needed a real partner. And my brother wanted to be that partner, but his boss/father didn't understand that role at all.

They wound up divorcing and I was sad for my brother but secretly happy for my SIL. And I think their divorce was ultimately good for both my brother and my dad because when my brother had joint custody, my dad could no longer just assume my SIL would take the kids or take care of house stuff so that my brother could work.

It's weird to cheer for your own brother to get divorced but on some level I did because it's one of the few things women can do to force these issues. Men marry and have kids and then fall into the habits they are raised in (women do too) and sometimes divorce is the only way to stop that cycle from repeating. I don't love divorce (it can be hard on kids) but men need to understand that if they don't want to split up, they have to step up. Women can back off on the domestic stuff, too, but it won't work if men don't step in to fill in the gaps.

This whole thread is a meta example of mental load. Women analyzing and debating what of mental load should be done or shared. I’m quite sure my DH wouldn’t spend more than 30 seconds considering it.

Anonymous wrote:I think some people take on too much of the mental load that isn’t even necessary. I’m sure a lot of this is due to societal pressures but some people are just really uptight and make more work for themselves and their spouse shouldn’t have to carry an equal load. However, naming and having “mental load” as part of a conversation is incredibly crucial in building more equitable and healthy relationships. I’d like to raise my children understanding this concept and I’ve chosen a spouse that has a lot of empathy and wants to build an equitable partnership and family. He has certain responsibilities that match his skills and he has full ownership. Its important to recognize that people have different standards so after agreeing on a general vision, let your partner own their job without criticism.

It’s also important to recognize that we have different values and I have to change my expectations around certain things. For example, he doesn’t agree with the commercialization of holidays like Christmas and he doesn’t care for decorating during the holidays. I care more about Christmas so I will buy and put up the lights and select the decorations I want. I keep it minimal and try to buy sustainable decor because we both agree on that point. He would be perfectly fine without lights and decor or even a tree. This responsibility I’ve freely taken on and enjoy, even though it adds to my mental load. If I expected him to participate 50%, I’m setting myself up for failure. Although he does offer to put up the lights himself, I just choose to do it since I have a particular vision and it frees him up to do things he’s better at, like constant repairs to our house.

In your example, think your husband should help with (your reasonable and modest amount of) holiday decor because it is important to you, and maybe to your children. Just as you might do something that is important to him. But I fully agree that partners together need to agree on what is necessary and important, rather than one partner deciding. It is the case that a lot of men have significantly lower bars for what is acceptable, and some women have pretty high bars. That doesn't mean the men are right just because it is less work to do it their way, it means a conversation needs to be had.

My spouse and I have made tons of progress on this compared to my parents, but I still take on a lot of the homemaker mental load, despite very equal jobs.

In most cases, it is easier for me to do it than to convince him to learn to do some of the things to my standards, which are NOT unreasonable, just not rock bottom. I'll take meal planning/food as an example. Left to his devices, he would make pasta with jarred sauce, frozen (or maybe fresh with pre-made crusts) pizza, and... I'm not even sure what else he'd come up with as ideas. He regularly fails to feed himself for lunch, and I guess that is his problem, not mine. Also, he is really quite decent cook, he just doesn't know how to plan a weekly menu, especially one that varies a bit and includes some vegetables. So, if I want to be able to hand off this task, there will be some learning curve... My method isn't very complicated either, so I just do it. I somewhat enjoy it, as long as my life isn't too crazy & stressful otherwise. Similarly, I buy all of the kid toys and clothes, but I see it as not a burden, personally. He'd be perfectly capable on this task, I don't have any burning desire to hand it off.

On the other hand, he is pretty much 100% in charge of worrying about the house and home and yard maintenance. It is "unfair" because it isn't a daily or even weekly task, but it is an actual mental load that I don't engage in because he is very competent in it, and enjoys it, and sometimes it does become a lot of work if there is a project to be don. He has a few of these types of things. The stereotypical women's mental load tends to be the day-to-day things, where men have less frequent things. But he has day to day childcare responsibilities, so whatever.

Is it even? I dunno, but we are not unhappy with the current workloads, so I guess it is working.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The mental load placed on women is perpetuated by gender-based expectations of a variety of parties, from parents, to health care providers to school staff, which always call the mother any time there is a problem at school.

If you aren’t smart enough to give them only your spose’s name and number, you deserve it

They had only DH’s number until he hit “ignore” on all the calls/didn’t listen to the voicemails from the school desperately trying to send our kid home sick with a fever a couple months ago.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:does anyone feel like we are doing carrying the mental load for OP? You all have done all the work for them in spelling out what mental load means!

BTW, in my house, I am playing chicken with the mental load. Oh, you didn't think about what we need to eat for dinner? Oh well, cereal it is. Oh, you didn't think about what to get for your staff for xmas? Yes, gas cards sound just fine. If I don't care, it's not happening. For example, we will probably never go to disney again, because I really don't want to do the planning to go somewhere that I really don't like very much.

Yes to this. I told my DH earlier this year that I would no longer plan any aspect of visits to his family. I did not say out loud, but I think he knows, that visiting his family sucks for me -- they are rude and demanding to me, and it feels like a waste of a vacation. And since then, he plans it. I cannot tell you what a load off it was for him to figure out the itinerary for Thanksgiving, book a rental for us, etc. I packed and while on the trip I parented our kid. But it wasn't my trip, I was just along for the ride. Such a good resetting of priorities and expectations.

My MIL went to my parents house and almost had a heart attack when she saw a thank you note from my kids. She was so hurt “ she never got one”. Bummer, I said, I do my family your son does your family.

Anonymous wrote:I fully respect the concept of the mental load - it is real.

What bothers me about most mental load conversations is it often sounds like working moms reinventing the wheel. We actually had a time where women stayed home and it was understood that what they were doing was important and time consuming. Then in the 70s-90s it was decided that women at home were doing nothing/"baking cookies and having teas." NOW working moms have "discovered" everyting involved with taking care of kids and household and have to tell everyone about it.

Mental load in the pre-70’s? You think parents parenting was the same back then?

You think men being involved in their child’s lives is a bad direction?

Anonymous wrote:does anyone feel like we are doing carrying the mental load for OP? You all have done all the work for them in spelling out what mental load means!

BTW, in my house, I am playing chicken with the mental load. Oh, you didn't think about what we need to eat for dinner? Oh well, cereal it is. Oh, you didn't think about what to get for your staff for xmas? Yes, gas cards sound just fine. If I don't care, it's not happening. For example, we will probably never go to disney again, because I really don't want to do the planning to go somewhere that I really don't like very much.

Yes to this. I told my DH earlier this year that I would no longer plan any aspect of visits to his family. I did not say out loud, but I think he knows, that visiting his family sucks for me -- they are rude and demanding to me, and it feels like a waste of a vacation. And since then, he plans it. I cannot tell you what a load off it was for him to figure out the itinerary for Thanksgiving, book a rental for us, etc. I packed and while on the trip I parented our kid. But it wasn't my trip, I was just along for the ride. Such a good resetting of priorities and expectations.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I understand that this is a real thing based on a societal expectation carried over from a time when most women didn’t work outside the home. What I don’t understand is why women like those on DCUM allow this to persist. You recognize it’s happening and yet you keep doing it? Why?

Revolutions take generations. This isnt technology. Its people and expectations. Standards are still kept at SAH level for most working moms. Technology has made household tasks less time-consuming but these inventions existed when moms were generally not in the workforce. There isnt much of a difference from doing laundry in 1960s to now. The load may be washed and dried faster but the work to collect, start, switch over, fold, and put away is the same. When people come to my house they dont say oh the dog hair on the steps is okay because they both work out of the home. My husband doesnt even see it. He was raised by someone who let him practice manipulative ignorance. If I dont do a job well then I dont have to do it. His mother didnt say do the job until you can do it well. The job and its outcome are not negotiable. A toilet cannot be half clean. It is either clean or dirty. Most men get participation trophies for household-related tasks. Most. There are some All Stars that actually run the bases and do the work but its rare and they dont have to be as well-rounded as women tend to be expected to be. Women have to pitch, catch, bat, run the bases, play outfield, cheer from the dugout, etc.

My great grandmother cleaned out her washing machine after every load. That was passed down and surprisingly, my grandmother, a woman who stayed at home her whole life, still continued to think it was a primarily a woman's job. So you know who was taught to do that- all us girls. She expected the boys to do their own laundry but not do the extra steps of cleaning and maintenance. That analogy can be extrapolated to almost all versions of men doing housework/managing children.

We have to take sheets to daycare every Monday. EVERY MONDAY. We rotate drop off and pickup due to work (again 50/50). Wanna know how many times sheets were forgotten on his Monday drop off vs. mine? Details dont matter because they arent taught to see taking care of others and household tasks as important. It just a check box.

A family friend - who went to med school while her kids were small, is very feminist/progressive, and is no stranger to dividing and conquering household duties with her DH - told me how she warned her son's GF when the couple moved in together that she'd have to switch to heavy-duty detergent for her son's clothes. I was so gobsmacked - surely her son can continue to manage his own laundry?! Sometimes even in the best-intentioned family situations, these things just get hard-wired in, and undoing that conditioning is (surprise!) more mental/emotional labor in itself.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The mental load placed on women is perpetuated by gender-based expectations of a variety of parties, from parents, to health care providers to school staff, which always call the mother any time there is a problem at school.

If you aren’t smart enough to give them only your spose’s name and number, you deserve it

I do give them DH number. They always call the wife first. One of our friends is a stay at home dad-even he noticed this. He had to fight hard to become the default. Another example: how many men’s rooms have a baby changing station in them? Why is that? Again women are viewed as default parent and carry a lot more of caregiving and mental load

🤣🤣🤣 they always always call the mom. I've gotten calls to come get a sick kid while I'm miles away and in an OR performing surgery while my DH is working from home within walking distance. And when I get the message I have to be the one to call DH to go get the kid. They hadn't even tried to call him and they definitely have his phone number on file. Forking ridiculous

Anonymous wrote:I fully respect the concept of the mental load - it is real.

What bothers me about most mental load conversations is it often sounds like working moms reinventing the wheel. We actually had a time where women stayed home and it was understood that what they were doing was important and time consuming. Then in the 70s-90s it was decided that women at home were doing nothing/"baking cookies and having teas." NOW working moms have "discovered" everyting involved with taking care of kids and household and have to tell everyone about it.

I think the real societal solution here is part time work for all. Workism is destroying our society.