Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's probably fine if they no longer teach Shakespeare. People have valid feelings around not wanting to glorify colonial oppression and i don't see the relevance to my personal life.

What connection does Shakespeare have to colonialism? He lived in a time where the only people the English were oppressing where other white people in Wales and Ireland. His writing has nothing to do with colonialism. He's not Kipling.

And only wanting to read writings that have relevance to your personal life is pretty much the definition of a provincial mind.

So you clearly haven't read much Shakespeare, or you would know that plays exploring this theme, like Othello, feature non-English characters living...not in England. Idiot.

Was this directed at the first or second comment?

Anyway, Othello has nothing to do with colonialism.

Okay, that's not totally true. The backdrop of the conflict between Venice and The Ottoman Empire deals with European resistance to Non-European colonialism. Of course, I don't expect the tragically woke to know about that bit of history, since it really messes up their narrative when it comes to things like colonialism and slavery.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The troll poster that wants to cancel Shakespeare is just an inarticulate version of a much more pernicious current. The ‘sophisticated’ scholars where these ideas originate are in the humanities departments at prestigious universities.

This is the current analysis on Shakespeare that draws that inspiration and there are countless ‘works’ in this vein:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41280-020-00169-6

In a nutshell, Shakespeare is harmful to black kids because whiteness.

The reason ‘middle aged’ (I know, the horror!) people still appreciate Shakespeare with all the good reasons presented in this thread is that they weren’t exposed to the critical studies ideas that dominate universities today. The woke cancel culture mob representatives are just parroting the line presented to them in college in the past 5-10 years.

I am not black. I am Asian but of course you would work from a black/white paradigm. And you lost the plot because I never said let’s cancel Shakespeare. I said it’s funny there’s a whole long question about this and continuous comment complaining and digging for Shakespeare. At the same time on another thread there are continuous comments fighting against things like restorative justice, equity, and learning history other than the white one.

You all should read Ego is the enemy, you’re always in it. This isn’t about white bad black good. Unfortunately there are good and bad people in all ethnic groups. Acknowledging that white privilege is a part of why this post has become popular does not mean Shakespeare needs to die.
I’ve already said at least when I was at Walls I did read it. And that’s only one school, I’m quite sure other schools in dcps read it.

Your culture is not in danger, the literary works of white authors is not in danger. That is why this thread is so funny. It’s also a cop out to cry anytime someone points out whiteness as a factor to anything. I am sorry you feel attacked and don’t want to hear about whiteness anymore, I don’t either but this is the world your ancestors created.

The colonizer comment was meant to incite anger, I am sure but it had some modicum of truth.

Shakespeare is fine.

I did not claim you are black, it doesn't matter to me what your race is. I claimed that your views on Shakespeare are just an unrefined version of the current sweeping the academia under the umbrella of name-your-grievance studies and as of late, witeness studies. The link I posted is just one of the many examples of shoddy scholarship that aims to legitimize your view that Shakespeare is not relevant or is even bad for various classes of students because is an exponent of colonialism, oppression and white supremacy.

Youre are so ignorant! You have no idea who my ancestors are, what they created, and you know nothing about my culture. Just stupid and silly generalizations of categorizing people in boxes that fit your narrative. I came to US in my 20's from Eastern Europe. Shakespeare is part of my heritage now not through me being white, but through learning the culture of my adoptive country. I'll make sure my son reads Shakespeare, not because of whiteness, but because I recognize literary genius, and because it will make him a better a more complex human being.

Just to probe how shallow you are, what is whiteness to you?

“ in a nutshell Shakespeare is harmful to BLACK kids because of whiteness” but whateverrr.

Sigh, why do people like you assume I think white people cannot suffer? Of course you surely can and like any other human you deserve love and empathy. That is separate from white privilege.

And you know very well whiteness is what you are NOT. Asians used to be classified as ‘white’ until they were excluded because of course we come in all shades and racism. I should have to explain this to you, especially since you are so educated about Shakespeare lol. Gotta say though Stratford-upon-Avon is beautiful.

I just summarized what was written in the abstract of the paper that I linked. I wated to spare the forum readers, but if you want the unadulterated word salad version, there you go:

"My confession, to which I turn at the close of this essay, rehearses a pedagogical experience wherein the wages of whiteness exact their usual cost from me and my students, demanding that we yield to white practices of knowledge-making in Shakespeare".

This is your point of view, slightly changed but the essence is the same.

Why this obsession in considering the race of the creator as part of judging the value of his work, even when the concept of race came about centuries after the death of said creator? Somehow you consider culture generated in the European area as 'white', and related with oppression. Why isn't Shakespeare part of the heritage of a black, hispanic or asian child and relevant to their experience? Because of skin color, or because it was written in English? In your view we are supposed to claim our culture and heritage as narrow as possible as to not offend the cultural appropriation hystheria.

You are actually part of the problem. You are conflating episodes of past atrocities with western culture. In this thread it's Shakespeare, elsewhere math is racist and an embodiment of white supremacy (no hyperbole, this is exactly what they claim).

I wouldn't normally care, but this culture war is starting to affect my child because it's spilling into the education system, and this is really pissing me off. Thats why I am arguing with you, your views are toxic and need to be countered and challenged.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's probably fine if they no longer teach Shakespeare. People have valid feelings around not wanting to glorify colonial oppression and i don't see the relevance to my personal life.

What connection does Shakespeare have to colonialism? He lived in a time where the only people the English were oppressing where other white people in Wales and Ireland. His writing has nothing to do with colonialism. He's not Kipling.

And only wanting to read writings that have relevance to your personal life is pretty much the definition of a provincial mind.

So you clearly haven't read much Shakespeare, or you would know that plays exploring this theme, like Othello, feature non-English characters living...not in England. Idiot.

At least one Shakespeare play is taught each year at the HS I teach at/

Anonymous wrote:Why Shakespeare? Why not Chaucer?
I’m also wondering how many of the vigorous supporters of reading Shakespeare have read any of his works beyond some academic requirement, or have even gone to plays. Is this an ongoing interest with ongoing support? Any Folger fans?

On DCUM? Probably a lot. I was just thinking I need to re-watch Kenneth Branaugh's Much Ado About Nothing tonight as a palate cleanser to some of the eye-rolling pronouncements from Freshman Psych. Between COVID and really young kids I haven't seen anything live in a while, but the last Shakespeare play I went to was probably The Shakespeare Theater's rendition of MacBeth a few years ago with the backdrop of an African civil war and the three witches as CIA-type operatives that I thought was an interesting take.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The troll poster that wants to cancel Shakespeare is just an inarticulate version of a much more pernicious current. The ‘sophisticated’ scholars where these ideas originate are in the humanities departments at prestigious universities.

This is the current analysis on Shakespeare that draws that inspiration and there are countless ‘works’ in this vein:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41280-020-00169-6

In a nutshell, Shakespeare is harmful to black kids because whiteness.

The reason ‘middle aged’ (I know, the horror!) people still appreciate Shakespeare with all the good reasons presented in this thread is that they weren’t exposed to the critical studies ideas that dominate universities today. The woke cancel culture mob representatives are just parroting the line presented to them in college in the past 5-10 years.

I am not black. I am Asian but of course you would work from a black/white paradigm. And you lost the plot because I never said let’s cancel Shakespeare. I said it’s funny there’s a whole long question about this and continuous comment complaining and digging for Shakespeare. At the same time on another thread there are continuous comments fighting against things like restorative justice, equity, and learning history other than the white one.

You all should read Ego is the enemy, you’re always in it. This isn’t about white bad black good. Unfortunately there are good and bad people in all ethnic groups. Acknowledging that white privilege is a part of why this post has become popular does not mean Shakespeare needs to die.
I’ve already said at least when I was at Walls I did read it. And that’s only one school, I’m quite sure other schools in dcps read it.

Your culture is not in danger, the literary works of white authors is not in danger. That is why this thread is so funny. It’s also a cop out to cry anytime someone points out whiteness as a factor to anything. I am sorry you feel attacked and don’t want to hear about whiteness anymore, I don’t either but this is the world your ancestors created.

The colonizer comment was meant to incite anger, I am sure but it had some modicum of truth.

Shakespeare is fine.

I did not claim you are black, it doesn't matter to me what your race is. I claimed that your views on Shakespeare are just an unrefined version of the current sweeping the academia under the umbrella of name-your-grievance studies and as of late, witeness studies. The link I posted is just one of the many examples of shoddy scholarship that aims to legitimize your view that Shakespeare is not relevant or is even bad for various classes of students because is an exponent of colonialism, oppression and white supremacy.

Youre are so ignorant! You have no idea who my ancestors are, what they created, and you know nothing about my culture. Just stupid and silly generalizations of categorizing people in boxes that fit your narrative. I came to US in my 20's from Eastern Europe. Shakespeare is part of my heritage now not through me being white, but through learning the culture of my adoptive country. I'll make sure my son reads Shakespeare, not because of whiteness, but because I recognize literary genius, and because it will make him a better a more complex human being.

Just to probe how shallow you are, what is whiteness to you?

“ in a nutshell Shakespeare is harmful to BLACK kids because of whiteness” but whateverrr.

Sigh, why do people like you assume I think white people cannot suffer? Of course you surely can and like any other human you deserve love and empathy. That is separate from white privilege.

And you know very well whiteness is what you are NOT. Asians used to be classified as ‘white’ until they were excluded because of course we come in all shades and racism. I should have to explain this to you, especially since you are so educated about Shakespeare lol. Gotta say though Stratford-upon-Avon is beautiful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ah, I checked back to see if the salty old white women would try to disparage my intellect because they didn’t like my answer. Nice you all met my expectations.

But I’m a little dissatisfied, I didn’t get the ‘word salad’ comment.

And just an FYI I wasn’t making a point for Shakespeare being removed, more like just laughing at this thread, that is just so white mom. What will you do if Karen and Brad don’t learn about Shakespeare in school?!

I think because DCPS can be or is trying to really be more black and a little more non-white hispanic focused some of you forget the real world is not. I’m sure their university English class will talk about Shakespeare. Or hey, you can have them read it for a leisure activity.

In the real world, mediocrities who use identity politics to try to sound sophisticated usually end up being exposed for what they really are: poorly educated

Oh no! It’s because I didn’t read enough Shakespeare isn’t it? Darn, how will I ever impress my middle aged friends now?

Maybe try and get their latte order correct, for once. And put down your phone for 5 minutes.

Ah, classist and assuming I’d slack on my job. I didn’t get into walls or go to UCB because I enjoy slacking on a job…
I work from home this week, don’t worry my job is secure. <3

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The troll poster that wants to cancel Shakespeare is just an inarticulate version of a much more pernicious current. The ‘sophisticated’ scholars where these ideas originate are in the humanities departments at prestigious universities.

This is the current analysis on Shakespeare that draws that inspiration and there are countless ‘works’ in this vein:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41280-020-00169-6

In a nutshell, Shakespeare is harmful to black kids because whiteness.

The reason ‘middle aged’ (I know, the horror!) people still appreciate Shakespeare with all the good reasons presented in this thread is that they weren’t exposed to the critical studies ideas that dominate universities today. The woke cancel culture mob representatives are just parroting the line presented to them in college in the past 5-10 years.

I am not black. I am Asian but of course you would work from a black/white paradigm. And you lost the plot because I never said let’s cancel Shakespeare. I said it’s funny there’s a whole long question about this and continuous comment complaining and digging for Shakespeare. At the same time on another thread there are continuous comments fighting against things like restorative justice, equity, and learning history other than the white one.

You all should read Ego is the enemy, you’re always in it. This isn’t about white bad black good. Unfortunately there are good and bad people in all ethnic groups. Acknowledging that white privilege is a part of why this post has become popular does not mean Shakespeare needs to die.
I’ve already said at least when I was at Walls I did read it. And that’s only one school, I’m quite sure other schools in dcps read it.

Your culture is not in danger, the literary works of white authors is not in danger. That is why this thread is so funny. It’s also a cop out to cry anytime someone points out whiteness as a factor to anything. I am sorry you feel attacked and don’t want to hear about whiteness anymore, I don’t either but this is the world your ancestors created.

The colonizer comment was meant to incite anger, I am sure but it had some modicum of truth.

Shakespeare is fine.

I did not claim you are black, it doesn't matter to me what your race is. I claimed that your views on Shakespeare are just an unrefined version of the current sweeping the academia under the umbrella of name-your-grievance studies and as of late, witeness studies. The link I posted is just one of the many examples of shoddy scholarship that aims to legitimize your view that Shakespeare is not relevant or is even bad for various classes of students because is an exponent of colonialism, oppression and white supremacy.

Youre are so ignorant! You have no idea who my ancestors are, what they created, and you know nothing about my culture. Just stupid and silly generalizations of categorizing people in boxes that fit your narrative. I came to US in my 20's from Eastern Europe. Shakespeare is part of my heritage now not through me being white, but through learning the culture of my adoptive country. I'll make sure my son reads Shakespeare, not because of whiteness, but because I recognize literary genius, and because it will make him a better a more complex human being.

Just to probe how shallow you are, what is whiteness to you?

Anonymous wrote:It's probably fine if they no longer teach Shakespeare. People have valid feelings around not wanting to glorify colonial oppression and i don't see the relevance to my personal life.

What connection does Shakespeare have to colonialism? He lived in a time where the only people the English were oppressing where other white people in Wales and Ireland. His writing has nothing to do with colonialism. He's not Kipling.

And only wanting to read writings that have relevance to your personal life is pretty much the definition of a provincial mind.

Anonymous wrote:One of the most interesting things about English is how weird it is. It uses some of the most simple grammar, but has among the largest vocabularies. (If anyone has a interest, go read Mother Tongue by Bill Bryson, which was way more entertaining than other lingusitic books).

This means that it gives poets and authors great tools to work with - simple frameworks on which they can twist and turn the language to make it express complex ideas a hundred ways. Shakespear did this like no other, and in doing so, he added more and more to our vocabulary. Studying his work is to study why and how English is extrodinary.

“English doesn’t borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down dark alleys, knocks them over and goes through their pockets for loose vocabulary.”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Ah, I checked back to see if the salty old white women would try to disparage my intellect because they didn’t like my answer. Nice you all met my expectations.

But I’m a little dissatisfied, I didn’t get the ‘word salad’ comment.

And just an FYI I wasn’t making a point for Shakespeare being removed, more like just laughing at this thread, that is just so white mom. What will you do if Karen and Brad don’t learn about Shakespeare in school?!

I think because DCPS can be or is trying to really be more black and a little more non-white hispanic focused some of you forget the real world is not. I’m sure their university English class will talk about Shakespeare. Or hey, you can have them read it for a leisure activity.

In the real world, mediocrities who use identity politics to try to sound sophisticated usually end up being exposed for what they really are: poorly educated

Oh no! It’s because I didn’t read enough Shakespeare isn’t it? Darn, how will I ever impress my middle aged friends now?

Maybe try and get their latte order correct, for once. And put down your phone for 5 minutes.

Anonymous wrote:It's probably fine if they no longer teach Shakespeare. People have valid feelings around not wanting to glorify colonial oppression and i don't see the relevance to my personal life.

You can argue relevance to personal life to anything that is being taught in school: algebra, chemistry, history, writing, geography. We still need to educate our children and teenagers broadly, even if they will not use the entire high school curriculum on their future career.

I did not understand how teaching Shakespeare is connected to the desire to glorify colonial opression, that was a non sequitur for me.

Anonymous wrote:The troll poster that wants to cancel Shakespeare is just an inarticulate version of a much more pernicious current. The ‘sophisticated’ scholars where these ideas originate are in the humanities departments at prestigious universities.

This is the current analysis on Shakespeare that draws that inspiration and there are countless ‘works’ in this vein:

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1057/s41280-020-00169-6

In a nutshell, Shakespeare is harmful to black kids because whiteness.

The reason ‘middle aged’ (I know, the horror!) people still appreciate Shakespeare with all the good reasons presented in this thread is that they weren’t exposed to the critical studies ideas that dominate universities today. The woke cancel culture mob representatives are just parroting the line presented to them in college in the past 5-10 years.

I am not black. I am Asian but of course you would work from a black/white paradigm. And you lost the plot because I never said let’s cancel Shakespeare. I said it’s funny there’s a whole long question about this and continuous comment complaining and digging for Shakespeare. At the same time on another thread there are continuous comments fighting against things like restorative justice, equity, and learning history other than the white one.

You all should read Ego is the enemy, you’re always in it. This isn’t about white bad black good. Unfortunately there are good and bad people in all ethnic groups. Acknowledging that white privilege is a part of why this post has become popular does not mean Shakespeare needs to die.
I’ve already said at least when I was at Walls I did read it. And that’s only one school, I’m quite sure other schools in dcps read it.

Your culture is not in danger, the literary works of white authors is not in danger. That is why this thread is so funny. It’s also a cop out to cry anytime someone points out whiteness as a factor to anything. I am sorry you feel attacked and don’t want to hear about whiteness anymore, I don’t either but this is the world your ancestors created.

The colonizer comment was meant to incite anger, I am sure but it had some modicum of truth.

Shakespeare is fine.

Anonymous wrote:It's probably fine if they no longer teach Shakespeare. People have valid feelings around not wanting to glorify colonial oppression and i don't see the relevance to my personal life.

Depends I guess on how edcuated you actually want your kids to be. For me, I'd like mine to actaully learn the pieces that will make them sucessful in college and beyond. But YMMV.

Why Shakespeare? Why not Chaucer?
I’m also wondering how many of the vigorous supporters of reading Shakespeare have read any of his works beyond some academic requirement, or have even gone to plays. Is this an ongoing interest with ongoing support? Any Folger fans?