Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When it's in the 90s and above, even the military has "black flag" conditions and are supposed to allow for specific periods of rest, water, shade and monitoring during drills. And this is military members.

So a 109 degree hike for several miles with a 20 lb baby and gear plus possibly an ailing dog is basically against all logic.

Looking at weather reports it looks like it was in the 80s when they started. Maybe they planned to be back by the time temps reached into the upper 90s to 100+.

South facing exposure. No shade. Even 80F would be hot.

80 degrees isn't very hot in desert climates, even in direct sun. It just didn't stay 80 degrees for very long. From the timeline posted earlier, it was close to 100 degrees at 10am.

It was already mid to high 80s when they started. With no shade and at high altitude, yes that does feel very very hot.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know heat stroke comes on fast. I still think this entire hike makes no sense. It was already close to 90 degrees when they set out, and before 11 was forecasted to hit 103.

If they were seen driving towards the trail head at 7:45 it means they started their walk around 8. By 9 it was very hot, but not heat stroke hot yet. The baby, even with shade, would have been showing signs of struggling in the heat-either being very fussy or lethargic. How far could they have gone and how bad could things really be that one of the parents couldn’t get out by then? Again, I’m saying prior to heat stroke or exhaustion setting in. The heat would have been apparent, they could have just turned around 20-30 minutes in. Also, I had those fancy hiking carries and 1 year olds do not generally like them-they want to be walking and moving around unless they are asleep.

I live in the desert and yes it’s cool in the mornings, but that means 5/6 AM. By 9 AM, nobody goes outside on these kinds of days.

They weren’t tourists. They knew this area. On the WS thread, they said that the dad had been on this trail at least once before and had owned property in the area for years.

It just does not make sense.

I think they thought they could it (and the adults might have indeed been able to) but foolishly didn’t realize that it is a giant NO for a dog or a baby. I also live in the desert and I guarantee when I go to pick my kids up for school in an hour I will drive by quite a few walkers and runners (as much as it surprises me). current temp 100. I see plenty of adults walking, running, golfing or playing tennis in the midday heat. Camps and sports run all summer here for school aged kids and teens. My kids do them (with lots of water and breaks) and are totally unfazed. Now obviously this isn’t at all similar to hiking in a remote area but with plenty of water, I’m surprised by how well healthy people function in the heat. (Not me!).

But for dogs and infants (or the elderly)? NO. My school aged kids can handle it, but my dog absolutely not. An infant absolutely not.

I think that is what did them in. They stupidly didn’t realize that a dog and a baby have different needs in the heat.

And I’m not advocating hiking in the heat (stupid for anyone) but there are a lot of people who exercise quite intensely in the heat. But they don’t bring their dog, and sure as heck don’t bring an infant.

They were overconfident, thought they could do it, and didn’t consider the baby or the dog.

Ok, but again, let’s say you’re right, they were just over confident. The baby would have been showing effects from the heat 30 minutes into the hike on a hot day like that. Not yet life threatening probably, but grouchy or lethargic. How far could they really have gotten before baby was ultra fussy or starting to seem overheated? When they started the hike it was already hot.

I feel like all the analysis here assumes they started out and it wasn’t too hot yet, got too far down the trail before they realized the heat, and then were too far away to get back quickly.

I’m not buying it because when they started it was already very hot and they had a baby with them who would have been either protesting, bright red, lethargic, or vomiting soon into the hike. How could they have just oops, went too far, overcommitted when babies (actually a toddler in this case) have no problem making their objections known or showing signs of distress way before the adults.

Anonymous wrote:The baby could have been lethargic and they may have mistook that for sleeping.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know heat stroke comes on fast. I still think this entire hike makes no sense. It was already close to 90 degrees when they set out, and before 11 was forecasted to hit 103.

If they were seen driving towards the trail head at 7:45 it means they started their walk around 8. By 9 it was very hot, but not heat stroke hot yet. The baby, even with shade, would have been showing signs of struggling in the heat-either being very fussy or lethargic. How far could they have gone and how bad could things really be that one of the parents couldn’t get out by then? Again, I’m saying prior to heat stroke or exhaustion setting in. The heat would have been apparent, they could have just turned around 20-30 minutes in. Also, I had those fancy hiking carries and 1 year olds do not generally like them-they want to be walking and moving around unless they are asleep.

I live in the desert and yes it’s cool in the mornings, but that means 5/6 AM. By 9 AM, nobody goes outside on these kinds of days.

They weren’t tourists. They knew this area. On the WS thread, they said that the dad had been on this trail at least once before and had owned property in the area for years.

It just does not make sense.

I think they thought they could it (and the adults might have indeed been able to) but foolishly didn’t realize that it is a giant NO for a dog or a baby. I also live in the desert and I guarantee when I go to pick my kids up for school in an hour I will drive by quite a few walkers and runners (as much as it surprises me). current temp 100. I see plenty of adults walking, running, golfing or playing tennis in the midday heat. Camps and sports run all summer here for school aged kids and teens. My kids do them (with lots of water and breaks) and are totally unfazed. Now obviously this isn’t at all similar to hiking in a remote area but with plenty of water, I’m surprised by how well healthy people function in the heat. (Not me!).

But for dogs and infants (or the elderly)? NO. My school aged kids can handle it, but my dog absolutely not. An infant absolutely not.

I think that is what did them in. They stupidly didn’t realize that a dog and a baby have different needs in the heat.

And I’m not advocating hiking in the heat (stupid for anyone) but there are a lot of people who exercise quite intensely in the heat. But they don’t bring their dog, and sure as heck don’t bring an infant.

They were overconfident, thought they could do it, and didn’t consider the baby or the dog.

Ok, but again, let’s say you’re right, they were just over confident. The baby would have been showing effects from the heat 30 minutes into the hike on a hot day like that. Not yet life threatening probably, but grouchy or lethargic. How far could they really have gotten before baby was ultra fussy or starting to seem overheated? When they started the hike it was already hot.

I feel like all the analysis here assumes they started out and it wasn’t too hot yet, got too far down the trail before they realized the heat, and then were too far away to get back quickly.

I’m not buying it because when they started it was already very hot and they had a baby with them who would have been either protesting, bright red, lethargic, or vomiting soon into the hike. How could they have just oops, went too far, overcommitted when babies (actually a toddler in this case) have no problem making their objections known or showing signs of distress way before the adults.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a mom, if your baby died and your husband was dying, would you leave the dead baby to go for aid? I’m not sure I would be rationale enough to leave them and may take their corpse but that could have been the scene here.

This mom was quite petite. The baby carrier looks big and heavy. She might not have wanted to leave the baby behind but may not have had a choice. She didn’t have the strength to carry it. I honestly think she wasn’t thinking coherently by then from grief, panic and heat exhaustion. The only cell phone mentioned was with the husband and so even if she took off, she didn’t have a cell phone on her. She didn’t think to get his cell phone. It’s all very sad.

Lack of a cell phone on her to me indicates she wasn't going for help, but that she had collapsed.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know heat stroke comes on fast. I still think this entire hike makes no sense. It was already close to 90 degrees when they set out, and before 11 was forecasted to hit 103.

If they were seen driving towards the trail head at 7:45 it means they started their walk around 8. By 9 it was very hot, but not heat stroke hot yet. The baby, even with shade, would have been showing signs of struggling in the heat-either being very fussy or lethargic. How far could they have gone and how bad could things really be that one of the parents couldn’t get out by then? Again, I’m saying prior to heat stroke or exhaustion setting in. The heat would have been apparent, they could have just turned around 20-30 minutes in. Also, I had those fancy hiking carries and 1 year olds do not generally like them-they want to be walking and moving around unless they are asleep.

I live in the desert and yes it’s cool in the mornings, but that means 5/6 AM. By 9 AM, nobody goes outside on these kinds of days.

They weren’t tourists. They knew this area. On the WS thread, they said that the dad had been on this trail at least once before and had owned property in the area for years.

It just does not make sense.

I think they thought they could it (and the adults might have indeed been able to) but foolishly didn’t realize that it is a giant NO for a dog or a baby. I also live in the desert and I guarantee when I go to pick my kids up for school in an hour I will drive by quite a few walkers and runners (as much as it surprises me). current temp 100. I see plenty of adults walking, running, golfing or playing tennis in the midday heat. Camps and sports run all summer here for school aged kids and teens. My kids do them (with lots of water and breaks) and are totally unfazed. Now obviously this isn’t at all similar to hiking in a remote area but with plenty of water, I’m surprised by how well healthy people function in the heat. (Not me!).

But for dogs and infants (or the elderly)? NO. My school aged kids can handle it, but my dog absolutely not. An infant absolutely not.

I think that is what did them in. They stupidly didn’t realize that a dog and a baby have different needs in the heat.

And I’m not advocating hiking in the heat (stupid for anyone) but there are a lot of people who exercise quite intensely in the heat. But they don’t bring their dog, and sure as heck don’t bring an infant.

They were overconfident, thought they could do it, and didn’t consider the baby or the dog.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a mom, if your baby died and your husband was dying, would you leave the dead baby to go for aid? I’m not sure I would be rationale enough to leave them and may take their corpse but that could have been the scene here.

This mom was quite petite. The baby carrier looks big and heavy. She might not have wanted to leave the baby behind but may not have had a choice. She didn’t have the strength to carry it. I honestly think she wasn’t thinking coherently by then from grief, panic and heat exhaustion. The only cell phone mentioned was with the husband and so even if she took off, she didn’t have a cell phone on her. She didn’t think to get his cell phone. It’s all very sad.

The high end hiking carriers are not actually that heavy. Less than 10 pounds. You think the mom couldn’t carry 30 lbs (20 for baby and 10 for pack) if she had to?

Anonymous wrote:I know heat stroke comes on fast. I still think this entire hike makes no sense. It was already close to 90 degrees when they set out, and before 11 was forecasted to hit 103.

If they were seen driving towards the trail head at 7:45 it means they started their walk around 8. By 9 it was very hot, but not heat stroke hot yet. The baby, even with shade, would have been showing signs of struggling in the heat-either being very fussy or lethargic. How far could they have gone and how bad could things really be that one of the parents couldn’t get out by then? Again, I’m saying prior to heat stroke or exhaustion setting in. The heat would have been apparent, they could have just turned around 20-30 minutes in. Also, I had those fancy hiking carries and 1 year olds do not generally like them-they want to be walking and moving around unless they are asleep.

I live in the desert and yes it’s cool in the mornings, but that means 5/6 AM. By 9 AM, nobody goes outside on these kinds of days.

They weren’t tourists. They knew this area. On the WS thread, they said that the dad had been on this trail at least once before and had owned property in the area for years.

It just does not make sense.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a mom, if your baby died and your husband was dying, would you leave the dead baby to go for aid? I’m not sure I would be rationale enough to leave them and may take their corpse but that could have been the scene here.

This mom was quite petite. The baby carrier looks big and heavy. She might not have wanted to leave the baby behind but may not have had a choice. She didn’t have the strength to carry it. I honestly think she wasn’t thinking coherently by then from grief, panic and heat exhaustion. The only cell phone mentioned was with the husband and so even if she took off, she didn’t have a cell phone on her. She didn’t think to get his cell phone. It’s all very sad.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If this is near Yosemite and at a high elevation then the combination of thinner air, possible smoke and high heat is probably what did it. We went hike/walking in Yosemite on a not steep mostly paved or dirt path. It didn’t seem that hot, it was shady and I drank beer at lunch. Halfway through I had drank my water and was extremely thirsty and exhausted. There was really no choice but to keep going. I didn’t collapse but when we finally reached the area where the shuttle can take you to the main village and there was a water fountain I was so relieved. I’ve never drank so much water from a drinking fountain. I’m not out of shape but the altitude, beer and heat surprised me.

Beer is a diuretic. It can lead to dehydration. If the couple had drunk beer, that could have speed up the dehydration process. Drinking beer is not a good idea on a hike, and can lead to further impaired judgement.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As a mom, if your baby died and your husband was dying, would you leave the dead baby to go for aid? I’m not sure I would be rationale enough to leave them and may take their corpse but that could have been the scene here.

This mom was quite petite. The baby carrier looks big and heavy. She might not have wanted to leave the baby behind but may not have had a choice. She didn’t have the strength to carry it. I honestly think she wasn’t thinking coherently by then from grief, panic and heat exhaustion. The only cell phone mentioned was with the husband and so even if she took off, she didn’t have a cell phone on her. She didn’t think to get his cell phone. It’s all very sad.

The high end hiking carriers are not actually that heavy. Less than 10 pounds. You think the mom couldn’t carry 30 lbs (20 for baby and 10 for pack) if she had to?

No, I don’t. That’s a third of her weight, bulky as f, in 103F heat, on uneven terrain and over 1.5 miles away. Impossible.

Generously, a mile would take her 20 minutes to walk in normal conditions. So 30-minutes for a mile-and-a-half. Now add a 30-pound weight to her back, it would probably take her at least forty-five minutes.

Which there’s no way she could sustain a march that long with that weight.

Anonymous wrote:I know heat stroke comes on fast. I still think this entire hike makes no sense. It was already close to 90 degrees when they set out, and before 11 was forecasted to hit 103.

If they were seen driving towards the trail head at 7:45 it means they started their walk around 8. By 9 it was very hot, but not heat stroke hot yet. The baby, even with shade, would have been showing signs of struggling in the heat-either being very fussy or lethargic. How far could they have gone and how bad could things really be that one of the parents couldn’t get out by then? Again, I’m saying prior to heat stroke or exhaustion setting in. The heat would have been apparent, they could have just turned around 20-30 minutes in. Also, I had those fancy hiking carries and 1 year olds do not generally like them-they want to be walking and moving around unless they are asleep.

I live in the desert and yes it’s cool in the mornings, but that means 5/6 AM. By 9 AM, nobody goes outside on these kinds of days.

They weren’t tourists. They knew this area. On the WS thread, they said that the dad had been on this trail at least once before and had owned property in the area for years.

It just does not make sense.

Anonymous wrote:If this is near Yosemite and at a high elevation then the combination of thinner air, possible smoke and high heat is probably what did it. We went hike/walking in Yosemite on a not steep mostly paved or dirt path. It didn’t seem that hot, it was shady and I drank beer at lunch. Halfway through I had drank my water and was extremely thirsty and exhausted. There was really no choice but to keep going. I didn’t collapse but when we finally reached the area where the shuttle can take you to the main village and there was a water fountain I was so relieved. I’ve never drank so much water from a drinking fountain. I’m not out of shape but the altitude, beer and heat surprised me.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:When it's in the 90s and above, even the military has "black flag" conditions and are supposed to allow for specific periods of rest, water, shade and monitoring during drills. And this is military members.

So a 109 degree hike for several miles with a 20 lb baby and gear plus possibly an ailing dog is basically against all logic.

Looking at weather reports it looks like it was in the 80s when they started. Maybe they planned to be back by the time temps reached into the upper 90s to 100+.

South facing exposure. No shade. Even 80F would be hot.

80 degrees isn't very hot in desert climates, even in direct sun. It just didn't stay 80 degrees for very long. From the timeline posted earlier, it was close to 100 degrees at 10am.