The justification of everything because because Dorland was “annoying” is so false. How can someone who 1) lives in another state far away, 2) is not part of your work office, 3) doesn’t connect with you except on a private FB that you joined … quality as “annoying” when your participation is entirely voluntary? “Jealous of” sounds more like it to me. And hateful.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So you’re just going to dig in, and not be open to anything that people have said? Where has anyone said it was fine to position this as a race issue? Aside from the chunky monkeys I have not seen one single person in here or Twitter say anything of the sort.

There's been a bunch of people on Twitter (yeah yeah I know) who have positioned this story that way. They say it, then immediately blow up at anyone who challenges them, then say that white people have no idea what it's like dealing with white people - which, probably true, and probably fair - and so just sit this one out.

I saw more of that at the beginning of this story - the discourse that I see on twitter has almost entirely died down now (though I still read kidneygate and check in on this thread). But it was there, and there was plenty of it. It wasn't a universal but it was common enough.

I agree, with you and the prior poster describing small r racism and the annoying white woman/pumpkin spice idiocy Gay posted (I’m the one who brought it up, because the Datalounge thread noted it was Gay’s way of continuing to frame Bad Art Friend as that of a white woman with too much time attacking a writer of color). It is a part of the conversation, because the CMs wanted to use Grub Streets writers of color to destroy Dorland.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people really believe that when a white person is discriminated against solely based on their race, that it's not racism?

I'd never argue that it's as "bad" or damaging as when other races are the brunt of this because white people still have some protection generally speaking, but I'm so confused how "discriminating on the basis of race" somehow now includes "unless that race is white" in which case you deserve everything that comes to you.

Because white supremacy is institutionalized. So if a POC decides that they don't want to mess with white people because of their lifelong experience with institutionalized white supremacy, that is not racism or legal discrimination. It's just how an individual POC decides to deal with white supremacy. You can argue with whether it's the most effective or useful way to approach, but it's still not racism.

Now if an institution excluded white people because they were white, that would be different. But they don't! White people can go to historically black colleges, for instance. In my experience, white people can even join affinity groups (like the Black Employees Alliance at a company), and while they may not feel like they fit in, they are still allowed. They just largely choose not to. But I dare you to find an example of institutional exclusion of white people, as opposed to some individual people just deciding they don't want to be friends with, interact with, or date white people.

There is no such thing as racism against white people.

Really, there's no such thing as racism against White people? I highly doubt Louis Farrakhan would allow a White Jew or any other sub-category of White persons to join the Nation of Islam. Have you ever been to South Africa? I have and making fun of very poor White people and relating their poverty to their Whiteness is definitely a thing.

Please don't do this here. This shouldn't devolve into All Lives Matter. This has been a really productive and thoughtful conversation.

Anonymous wrote:So you’re just going to dig in, and not be open to anything that people have said? Where has anyone said it was fine to position this as a race issue? Aside from the chunky monkeys I have not seen one single person in here or Twitter say anything of the sort.

There's been a bunch of people on Twitter (yeah yeah I know) who have positioned this story that way. They say it, then immediately blow up at anyone who challenges them, then say that white people have no idea what it's like dealing with white people - which, probably true, and probably fair - and so just sit this one out.

I saw more of that at the beginning of this story - the discourse that I see on twitter has almost entirely died down now (though I still read kidneygate and check in on this thread). But it was there, and there was plenty of it. It wasn't a universal but it was common enough.

It’s not that Dawn is white. It’s that she’s white trash. She’s from the wrong class and that can’t be overcome in literary circles when you’re also white.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Do people really believe that when a white person is discriminated against solely based on their race, that it's not racism?

I'd never argue that it's as "bad" or damaging as when other races are the brunt of this because white people still have some protection generally speaking, but I'm so confused how "discriminating on the basis of race" somehow now includes "unless that race is white" in which case you deserve everything that comes to you.

Because white supremacy is institutionalized. So if a POC decides that they don't want to mess with white people because of their lifelong experience with institutionalized white supremacy, that is not racism or legal discrimination. It's just how an individual POC decides to deal with white supremacy. You can argue with whether it's the most effective or useful way to approach, but it's still not racism.

Now if an institution excluded white people because they were white, that would be different. But they don't! White people can go to historically black colleges, for instance. In my experience, white people can even join affinity groups (like the Black Employees Alliance at a company), and while they may not feel like they fit in, they are still allowed. They just largely choose not to. But I dare you to find an example of institutional exclusion of white people, as opposed to some individual people just deciding they don't want to be friends with, interact with, or date white people.

There is no such thing as racism against white people.

Really, there's no such thing as racism against White people? I highly doubt Louis Farrakhan would allow a White Jew or any other sub-category of White persons to join the Nation of Islam. Have you ever been to South Africa? I have and making fun of very poor White people and relating their poverty to their Whiteness is definitely a thing.

Anonymous wrote:So you’re just going to dig in, and not be open to anything that people have said? Where has anyone said it was fine to position this as a race issue? Aside from the chunky monkeys I have not seen one single person in here or Twitter say anything of the sort.

No, I’m not sure where you’re getting that. I didn’t say anyone here said it was fine to position this as a race issue. Are you talking to me? I also said I would be interested in a s/o thread because I think that there could be valuable conversation about this. But this doesn’t seem to be it. I don’t want to derail the thread (including how remarkably kind, open minded and thoughtful it’s been) so I am not going to keep posting about this part of it or respond otherwise to how you’ve misinterpreted my post except to say you perhaps think I’m a different poster or am responsible for multiple posts here on the topic of racism. I’m not the other poster weighing in.

So you’re just going to dig in, and not be open to anything that people have said? Where has anyone said it was fine to position this as a race issue? Aside from the chunky monkeys I have not seen one single person in here or Twitter say anything of the sort.

I would love to see a spin off thread on nuances here that have to do with race. I think there absolutely are - I raised it earlier and was one of the first recent posters about whether there was a small r racism here. It’s unquestionable when Alison Murphy (white) suggested to a POC to post in Grub writers of color - so they would draaaaaag here. I hope nobody thinks that’s okay, And I hope nobody dismisses that this is a persons white race being leveraged against them. And all the “annoying white woman” tweets. I know I sure as hell would never call someone an annoying Asian woman or an annoying black woman. It would feel wrong and it would be wrong. So why do we laugh it off when others don’t follow the same code? There is, as someone said, no social penalty for making a joke about someone’s whiteness - even when it’s not just a joke, and rather is meant to insult and hurt, including in a random way.

But that’s just a layer here. It’s not the main one. The CMs and a lot of the lit blue checks are just showing themselves to be not very good or ethical humans. The racial slurs are just a slice. What happened to Dawn was more about classism.

Anonymous wrote:The person who donated her kidney is extraordinary, amazing generous. Full stop.

*amazingly

The person who donated her kidney is extraordinary, amazing generous. Full stop.

Just started 15 Minutes of Shame in HBO and boy oh boy Roxane Gay is a massive hypocrite and the first story shows a guy that claims The NY Times screwed him over. Very interested to finish it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it not racism when a powerful group of POC bully and exclude this woman because she's white? If she was a POC, would they not just ignore her and exclude her based on her annoying traits? It seems like they revel in hating her because she's not one of them. I'm not saying that should be what people focus on. I think this story is far more about plagiarism and groupthink, but I don't think Dorland would've been exploited and treated this way if she were Asian.

thanks to all the PPs for your input on racism. Much appreciated.

Uhhhh, what?
Only two people in their group were POC, 90% of them were white.

Let's be real -- their treatment of Dorland had ZERO to do with race, and everything to do with their feelings of cringe towards her.
Dawn is needy and polarizing, there's no two ways about it, and they are a more sophisticated, "popular" crowd that she never fit into and never could, no matter how hard she tried.

To attempt to make the claim that their treatment of Dorland was about her race, is laughable.

There is a substantial POC membership in that group especially among the leadership.

DP. You are being ridiculous. If you list out the actual names of the people who did anything here, 90% and maybe even 95% are white. We know their names; we have literal evidence. Stop making stuff up.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it not racism when a powerful group of POC bully and exclude this woman because she's white? If she was a POC, would they not just ignore her and exclude her based on her annoying traits? It seems like they revel in hating her because she's not one of them. I'm not saying that should be what people focus on. I think this story is far more about plagiarism and groupthink, but I don't think Dorland would've been exploited and treated this way if she were Asian.

thanks to all the PPs for your input on racism. Much appreciated.

Uhhhh, what?
Only two people in their group were POC, 90% of them were white.

Let's be real -- their treatment of Dorland had ZERO to do with race, and everything to do with their feelings of cringe towards her.
Dawn is needy and polarizing, there's no two ways about it, and they are a more sophisticated, "popular" crowd that she never fit into and never could, no matter how hard she tried.

To attempt to make the claim that their treatment of Dorland was about her race, is laughable.

I agree with you that this isn't about Dorland's race (as 90% of the worst behavior towards her came from white people), but the bolded is flat-out wrong, and just a remnant of the hideously misogynist NYT article. If you read Dawn Dorland's correspondence from the lawsuit, she comes across as measured and reasonable in the face of some horrific gaslighting. Please do not continue to perpetrate an inaccurate and sexist trope.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is it not racism when a powerful group of POC bully and exclude this woman because she's white? If she was a POC, would they not just ignore her and exclude her based on her annoying traits? It seems like they revel in hating her because she's not one of them. I'm not saying that should be what people focus on. I think this story is far more about plagiarism and groupthink, but I don't think Dorland would've been exploited and treated this way if she were Asian.

thanks to all the PPs for your input on racism. Much appreciated.

Uhhhh, what?
Only two people in their group were POC, 90% of them were white.

Let's be real -- their treatment of Dorland had ZERO to do with race, and everything to do with their feelings of cringe towards her.
Dawn is needy and polarizing, there's no two ways about it, and they are a more sophisticated, "popular" crowd that she never fit into and never could, no matter how hard she tried.

To attempt to make the claim that their treatment of Dorland was about her race, is laughable.

There is a substantial POC membership in that group especially among the leadership.