Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.

DP. The data says "many" (or possibly "most") but not "every". As with anything else, exceptions must exist here or there in any large country like the USA.

The NAEP math results and PISA math results each show that the US (nationally) is poor at teaching math. Of course, some schools in the US will be better, and some worse, but our national average results for math knowledge can only be called poor.

Really, it's mainly the Asian countries that score well on those tests. And it's cultural from what I understand. My husband is with State Dept and when doing bidding research, most schools internationally were either American curriculum which is based on common core and there was no apparent path to algebra 1 in MS (and still using Lucy Caulkins reader/writer workshop), or British curriculum which is a bit faster paced but doesn't correspond as easily.

It is true that Singapore and Taiwan do well on PIsA teats, but Finland and most other European countries also do very well. ALL of those countries do visibly better than the US.

We are way way down the PISA results list. If we were middle of the pack, that would be one thing, but we aren't even scoring there. We really are towards the bottom.

NAEP is a US-only test, but it also shows poor math scores all across the nation. Common Core curriculum was watered down from prior curricula by the participating states and the education lobby so that all students could pass.

You can’t compare US with other countries- different cultures and attitudes around education, rule following, and parental support. But you can compare the US with itself- and education is undeniable worse than it has been in several decades

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.

Yes. Yes they do

As this president is dismantling the Department of Education. All the states seem to have their own way of teaching it. Maybe there needs to be better federal oversight.

I still remember at my school we started mixing grades and had separate teachers for math and French in 4th grade and 5th grades. I started getting stomachaches in 4th grade math. I can still visualize where I sat with my math book and the scary teacher sitting reading magazines at her desk while I struggled.

I’m sure there are students today who struggle but are too timid or scared to ask for help. Maybe the teacher taught the concept once and you were out of luck if you didn’t get it.

Way to bring current politics into the discussion... these issues have been pretty prevalent for many years under all administrations - realistically it's a state education issue anyway

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.

DP. The data says "many" (or possibly "most") but not "every". As with anything else, exceptions must exist here or there in any large country like the USA.

The NAEP math results and PISA math results each show that the US (nationally) is poor at teaching math. Of course, some schools in the US will be better, and some worse, but our national average results for math knowledge can only be called poor.

Really, it's mainly the Asian countries that score well on those tests. And it's cultural from what I understand. My husband is with State Dept and when doing bidding research, most schools internationally were either American curriculum which is based on common core and there was no apparent path to algebra 1 in MS (and still using Lucy Caulkins reader/writer workshop), or British curriculum which is a bit faster paced but doesn't correspond as easily.

It is true that Singapore and Taiwan do well on PIsA teats, but Finland and most other European countries also do very well. ALL of those countries do visibly better than the US.

We are way way down the PISA results list. If we were middle of the pack, that would be one thing, but we aren't even scoring there. We really are towards the bottom.

NAEP is a US-only test, but it also shows poor math scores all across the nation. Common Core curriculum was watered down from prior curricula by the participating states and the education lobby so that all students could pass.

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous][quote=Anonymous]When did this change and why? We did not supplement in the aughts and certainly not in the 90s. [/quote]There are no textbooks. The teachers teach to the SOL. They follow disconnected strands bc of the SOL. They cram info into Sept-April bc they reserve the end of April and May for SOL review and test. Many of the teachers are young and inexperienced. They teach math off of poorly formatted Google slides. It’s all very poorly taught. [/quote]

Dp. This, and kids got homework. Parents helped kids as needed with their homework. They'd check math sent home and explain things kids weren't understanding.

Kids don't get homework anymore, or if they do, it's like 5-10 minutes long and inconsistently given.

I was doing 30 minutes a day afterschool by 5-6th grade. It was school assigned homework, mostly daily math.
[/quote]
I don't know anyone whose parents were regularly helping them with HW beyond ES in the 1980s or 90s.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.

DP. The data says "many" (or possibly "most") but not "every". As with anything else, exceptions must exist here or there in any large country like the USA.

The NAEP math results and PISA math results each show that the US (nationally) is poor at teaching math. Of course, some schools in the US will be better, and some worse, but our national average results for math knowledge can only be called poor.

Really, it's mainly the Asian countries that score well on those tests. And it's cultural from what I understand. My husband is with State Dept and when doing bidding research, most schools internationally were either American curriculum which is based on common core and there was no apparent path to algebra 1 in MS (and still using Lucy Caulkins reader/writer workshop), or British curriculum which is a bit faster paced but doesn't correspond as easily.

Supplementing is normal now because we live in a relatively well off area where most people have the time a resources to do it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.

Yes. Yes they do

As this president is dismantling the Department of Education. All the states seem to have their own way of teaching it. Maybe there needs to be better federal oversight.

I still remember at my school we started mixing grades and had separate teachers for math and French in 4th grade and 5th grades. I started getting stomachaches in 4th grade math. I can still visualize where I sat with my math book and the scary teacher sitting reading magazines at her desk while I struggled.

I’m sure there are students today who struggle but are too timid or scared to ask for help. Maybe the teacher taught the concept once and you were out of luck if you didn’t get it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.

DP. The data says "many" (or possibly "most") but not "every". As with anything else, exceptions must exist here or there in any large country like the USA.

The NAEP math results and PISA math results each show that the US (nationally) is poor at teaching math. Of course, some schools in the US will be better, and some worse, but our national average results for math knowledge can only be called poor.

Fully agree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do people mean when they say "textbook" with regards to elementary school math?

My kid uses workbooks at school and these come home periodically when they are done, so we can see all the content and our kid's work. It's not like the textbooks I had as a kid because it's single use -- all the content is in the workboook and the kid does the work directly in the book instead of a separate sheet of paper. But the contents are pretty much the same as the textbooks I had as a kid.

I do sometimes wonder if not being forced to create their own work on a separate piece of paper causes something lost. Something about the mental organization it takes to read a lesson, look at the problem set, and then write the problems on a separate sheet and work them out in a way that is clear to a teacher when they turn it in.

However, all of the options for math supplementing also use workbooks. Is there a math tutoring program that uses traditional text books and kids having to re-create their work on blank paper? I am unaware of them.

So I'm not sure that supplementing is offering a big advantage over what is happening in class in this respecting. Everyone is using the same sort of materials. The main advantage of supplementing is that it's more time on math, and enables kids to work ahead so that when they encounter concepts in school, it's review instead of an introduction.

I’m not sure why recopying problems from a textbook would be more effective than solving them in a workbook. To address it, however, I think you could simply have your child recopy their problems from a workbook to a blank sheet of paper.

As for supplementing, I don’t think there’s a significant advantage in supplementing just to accelerate your child. First of all, many math curriculums spiral so much of classroom instruction is already designed to be a review. I think the key is that math concepts should be mastered as they are introduced to make sure the child’s foundation is solid before they try to learn more advanced concepts which build on those earlier lessons. Secondly, when a child is advanced and feels they aren’t learning anything new, it causes other problems. For those reason, I generally recommend enriching advanced students rather than accelerating them.

There is so much added value in having an actual text book. Copying the problems from the book on to paper helps with organization. They learn to both copy accurately, but line numbers up and create and orderly format. Then theirs the actual text. If they are unsure how to do something, they have the text to reference. Parents can also clearly see what problems are supposed to be done and the methods they are being taught- so they can help their students. It’s an absolute travesty that text books have been cut out

PP you responded to here

I agree with you 100%. I think textbooks are vital. They serve many functions including: providing instruction from subject matter experts that has been professionally edited, and often reviewed by other subject matter experts; explanations and examples that are coordinated with problem sets; and additional study resources such as a glossary, index, selected answers for self checks, etc. Perhaps the most valuable service they provide is that they enable the parent to view the curriculum. This not only makes it easier for parents to help with homework, but it allows them to be informed about deficiencies in the curriculum.

When my kids were in elementary, I was constantly frustrated because the school system (which liked to proclaim itself “one of the best school systems in the country) eschewed professionally developed curricula with proven track records in favor of a proprietary curriculum they had developed in-house. It was loosely based on 2 commercial math programs that were so bad that parents were actively protesting them elsewhere, but without the subject matter expertise or professional editing. With no textbooks to review, and when even the tests were considered proprietary and thus were never sent home, most parents had no idea what was actually going on.

I still remember when DD had progressed to middle school math where they were finally provided with commercially produced textbooks. When she asked me for help with her homework, I asked her if she had read the explanation preceding the assigned problems. She was astounded when I showed her that not only did the textbook provide an explanation, it also provided examples of sample problems similar to those in her homework. Then her mind was completely blown when I showed her that there were selected answers in the back so she could check her understanding, along with a glossary, and an index.

Since the PP that I had responded to was complaining primarily about the workbooks not requiring recopying of the assigned problems, and didn’t mention a lack of instructional material, I assumed (perhaps incorrectly), that the workbook was a supplementary resource to a standard textbook. When I was in school, we always had math textbooks, but while math workbooks weren’t provided, we had plenty of supplementary worksheets. Similarly, in reading, we had spelling textbooks, grammar textbooks, basal readers, and workbooks that were companions to the basal readers. I think textbooks are absolutely essential (Personally, I have a preference for traditional printed formats, but would choose a well-written, mathematically sound e-book over a hard copy that favored pedagogical trends over mathematical content.). If a textbook comes with SUPPLEMENTARY resources, whether that’s as workbooks, videos, games, etc., I may question whether they add any value, but don’t see how they detract anything, as long as the core textbook itself provides strong instruction.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What do people mean when they say "textbook" with regards to elementary school math?

My kid uses workbooks at school and these come home periodically when they are done, so we can see all the content and our kid's work. It's not like the textbooks I had as a kid because it's single use -- all the content is in the workboook and the kid does the work directly in the book instead of a separate sheet of paper. But the contents are pretty much the same as the textbooks I had as a kid.

I do sometimes wonder if not being forced to create their own work on a separate piece of paper causes something lost. Something about the mental organization it takes to read a lesson, look at the problem set, and then write the problems on a separate sheet and work them out in a way that is clear to a teacher when they turn it in.

However, all of the options for math supplementing also use workbooks. Is there a math tutoring program that uses traditional text books and kids having to re-create their work on blank paper? I am unaware of them.

So I'm not sure that supplementing is offering a big advantage over what is happening in class in this respecting. Everyone is using the same sort of materials. The main advantage of supplementing is that it's more time on math, and enables kids to work ahead so that when they encounter concepts in school, it's review instead of an introduction.

I’m not sure why recopying problems from a textbook would be more effective than solving them in a workbook. To address it, however, I think you could simply have your child recopy their problems from a workbook to a blank sheet of paper.

As for supplementing, I don’t think there’s a significant advantage in supplementing just to accelerate your child. First of all, many math curriculums spiral so much of classroom instruction is already designed to be a review. I think the key is that math concepts should be mastered as they are introduced to make sure the child’s foundation is solid before they try to learn more advanced concepts which build on those earlier lessons. Secondly, when a child is advanced and feels they aren’t learning anything new, it causes other problems. For those reason, I generally recommend enriching advanced students rather than accelerating them.

There is so much added value in having an actual text book. Copying the problems from the book on to paper helps with organization. They learn to both copy accurately, but line numbers up and create and orderly format. Then theirs the actual text. If they are unsure how to do something, they have the text to reference. Parents can also clearly see what problems are supposed to be done and the methods they are being taught- so they can help their students. It’s an absolute travesty that text books have been cut out

Our kids school seems ok at introducing math concepts, but they do not have the students practice enough math problems to really memorize the methods being taught.

For us "supplement" is not acceleration. It is reinforcement -- just giving them sufficient practice at home working math problems. This way they can do the math reliably and correctly -- every time - without confusion.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.

DP. The data says "many" (or possibly "most") but not "every". As with anything else, exceptions must exist here or there in any large country like the USA.

The NAEP math results and PISA math results each show that the US (nationally) is poor at teaching math. Of course, some schools in the US will be better, and some worse, but our national average results for math knowledge can only be called poor.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.

Yes. Yes they do

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.

Yes, every US public school has a subpar math program. You can see that internationally.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians rule

Between the math competitions, spelling bees, and computer science competitions- Asians are definitely the majority of representation. Not all wealthy either-putting education as a high priority is cultural. Wish more families did

BUT, we don’t need everyone excelling in math and high tech work. Most careers don’t involved very advanced math. But students aiming for a STEM career need to prioritize it.

Elementary students and most middle school students have not settled on a career yet. The future career is an unknown. (Sure, a tiny number of very very rare exceptions to this might exist.) Yet those are the exact ages where a strong math foundation needs to be established yo even have the option for a STEM degree in college or future STEM career.

Having a solid math foundation is about not closing doors prematurely for students in elementary and middle schools.

There are plenty of students who know that they have zero interest in STEM careers, or finance or economics or anything close to that. By middle school they have a good idea of what classes they enjoy and which classes are miserable grinds.

Every student needs to have a solid math foundation. Not every student needs to accelerate math or be in advanced classes. I would hope that the kids who spent their free time at a math school and math summer programs use these skills in a career they enjoy.

Every student doesn’t need discrete math and MVC in high school. But students with normal IQ and cognitive ability that are college bound should absolutely have calculus by 12th. In most districts, the normal pathway is Alg I in 9th, which isn’t enough IMO. The most typical advanced path puts students at Alg I in 8th, which isn’t crazy advanced at all, but students might not get enough math in K-5 to get there without supplemental math. It isn’t that they are dumb- it’s that school literally isn’t preparing them. It isn’t just about math, it’s about higher level thinking

Posters here seem to only think about the same colleges with the big names and the Ivy Leagues. There are about 3,000 four year colleges in the US. Less than half require 4 years of math. The only ones that need calculus are students going into STEM or the top colleges and a few scattered reasons.

Math is not the only subject that strengthens higher level thinking. All subjects do. The problem with students who spend all of their free hours on math tend to be weak in creative thinking, creative writing, they can be weak in the humanities where everything is not black and white like math. They may be weak in memorizing historical events and timelines because they don’t typically have to memorize. Students weak in math have an easier time because they can almost avoid it with taking the minimum requirements.

A large majority of kids are average and they will have no problem finding a college that fits them. Average kids who do the work will get good grades in all of the basic maths. Most kids have a subject they like and are good at, maybe history or English. That will help them find their way into a major they will enjoy and do well in.

Taking Alg 1 in 8th is not some huge acceleration. That should be average but our schools are so bad that it isn’t. Kids wanting to go into STEM at a
Top 20 school are doing more acceleration than that.

We have the advanced kids who go to RMS close to the school in Algebra 1. Everyone else, about 80% take 8th grade math.

Yeah, because school math is terrible and very slow; only about 30% of kids meet grade level expectations. If kids of normal intelligence were actually given good instruction in school, Alg I in 8th would be standard. But that isn’t reality. Math instruction in school as is subpar for normal kids.

Since “normal” kids are the vast majority of the students in public schools what you’re claiming is every public school has a subpar math program. I don’t know.