Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that OP makes it sound so unfair that he has a second shift and how that is somehow under appreciated. Like he is not supposed to have a second shift but society has conspired to give him one. Meanwhile women just expect it.

This is the thing I notice about men who split parenting and housework relatively equally with their wives (who also work) - they consider it some kind of huge notable thing that they are MEN who have to balance work with family obligations. If they see a lot of men dropping off kids at daycare, they think to themselves, "wow, these men are so evolved" without thinking about the absurdity and injustice of the alternative - dumping both drop off and pickup on the wives that ALSO have jobs. It's not "evolved" that there are men at daycare drop off, it means there are two working parents and the men are more likely to do drop off so they can work later.

I so identify with this comment. Not so much about my husband, who leans in a ton, but the rest of society that acts like I am SO LUCKY to have landed a guy that is such a great dad. Meanwhile, I have the much more demanding job and still do as much. (I do feel lucky, by the way, but it is so grating when everyone fawns over him for doing what he's supposed to do as a dad).

Omg, yes.

For me the adulation for my DH for fulfilling his role as a parent (he does it very well, I'm grateful!) comes from my mother. She constantly tells me how lucky I am. And I do feel lucky. But I think DH is lucky too, but my mother doesn't.

Are you guys really that blind to the historical expectations that have traditionally surround gender? The reason why it’s notable when a man pitches his full self into childcare is that traditionally men had almost zero expectations to provide day to day childcare but he was expected to work and provide for material needs. That’s the same reason why women are lauded more than a man when she becomes a high ranking corporate leader or a top surgeon or military rank etc. The comments come from a sense of novelty. Your victim narrative is in your own mind. Don’t you think it feels a bit patronizing to a man when he is noted for taking care of his own child? It’s not exactly a great thing for anyone involved.

My husband doesn't think it is patronizing. He internalizes it and expects gratitude from me for being so evolved. He has made comments that I am lucky that he is so "domestic" since I am so lacking in that area. In other words, he is really good at running the dishwasher, washing machine and dryer and making simple dinners (I also do these things regularly but he does it a bit more. I do more of the laundry sorting and putting away and house cleaning). I appreciate it! On the other hand, between my full time job (which brings on about the same money as DH's) and taking the lead on coordinating our child's supports for her special needs, I only have so much time to organize and clean. DH likes to pile up stuff all over the house thinking it is organized, so the house is cluttered and messy.

He is a good father and husband in general but this is his blind spot. When we were dating, he made it clear he was not looking to be a sole provider - he didn't want a SAHM for a wife. And that's what I wanted too. But men in our generation and both men and women in our parents generation too often forget that if both parents are working, it is not okay for the husband to dump domestic responsibilities on the wife. If they are doing their part, that just means they aren't an entitled ahole, and that's a good thing but not a reason for intense adulation or acting like they are God's gift to women.

That sounds like the specific personality of your husband (to be a martyr) and not how I feel at all. Who is providing all of this “intense adulation”?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that OP makes it sound so unfair that he has a second shift and how that is somehow under appreciated. Like he is not supposed to have a second shift but society has conspired to give him one. Meanwhile women just expect it.

This is the thing I notice about men who split parenting and housework relatively equally with their wives (who also work) - they consider it some kind of huge notable thing that they are MEN who have to balance work with family obligations. If they see a lot of men dropping off kids at daycare, they think to themselves, "wow, these men are so evolved" without thinking about the absurdity and injustice of the alternative - dumping both drop off and pickup on the wives that ALSO have jobs. It's not "evolved" that there are men at daycare drop off, it means there are two working parents and the men are more likely to do drop off so they can work later.

I so identify with this comment. Not so much about my husband, who leans in a ton, but the rest of society that acts like I am SO LUCKY to have landed a guy that is such a great dad. Meanwhile, I have the much more demanding job and still do as much. (I do feel lucky, by the way, but it is so grating when everyone fawns over him for doing what he's supposed to do as a dad).

Omg, yes.

For me the adulation for my DH for fulfilling his role as a parent (he does it very well, I'm grateful!) comes from my mother. She constantly tells me how lucky I am. And I do feel lucky. But I think DH is lucky too, but my mother doesn't.

Are you guys really that blind to the historical expectations that have traditionally surround gender? The reason why it’s notable when a man pitches his full self into childcare is that traditionally men had almost zero expectations to provide day to day childcare but he was expected to work and provide for material needs. That’s the same reason why women are lauded more than a man when she becomes a high ranking corporate leader or a top surgeon or military rank etc. The comments come from a sense of novelty. Your victim narrative is in your own mind. Don’t you think it feels a bit patronizing to a man when he is noted for taking care of his own child? It’s not exactly a great thing for anyone involved.

My husband doesn't think it is patronizing. He internalizes it and expects gratitude from me for being so evolved. He has made comments that I am lucky that he is so "domestic" since I am so lacking in that area. In other words, he is really good at running the dishwasher, washing machine and dryer and making simple dinners (I also do these things regularly but he does it a bit more. I do more of the laundry sorting and putting away and house cleaning). I appreciate it! On the other hand, between my full time job (which brings on about the same money as DH's) and taking the lead on coordinating our child's supports for her special needs, I only have so much time to organize and clean. DH likes to pile up stuff all over the house thinking it is organized, so the house is cluttered and messy.

He is a good father and husband in general but this is his blind spot. When we were dating, he made it clear he was not looking to be a sole provider - he didn't want a SAHM for a wife. And that's what I wanted too. But men in our generation and both men and women in our parents generation too often forget that if both parents are working, it is not okay for the husband to dump domestic responsibilities on the wife. If they are doing their part, that just means they aren't an entitled ahole, and that's a good thing but not a reason for intense adulation or acting like they are God's gift to women.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that OP makes it sound so unfair that he has a second shift and how that is somehow under appreciated. Like he is not supposed to have a second shift but society has conspired to give him one. Meanwhile women just expect it.

This is the thing I notice about men who split parenting and housework relatively equally with their wives (who also work) - they consider it some kind of huge notable thing that they are MEN who have to balance work with family obligations. If they see a lot of men dropping off kids at daycare, they think to themselves, "wow, these men are so evolved" without thinking about the absurdity and injustice of the alternative - dumping both drop off and pickup on the wives that ALSO have jobs. It's not "evolved" that there are men at daycare drop off, it means there are two working parents and the men are more likely to do drop off so they can work later.

I so identify with this comment. Not so much about my husband, who leans in a ton, but the rest of society that acts like I am SO LUCKY to have landed a guy that is such a great dad. Meanwhile, I have the much more demanding job and still do as much. (I do feel lucky, by the way, but it is so grating when everyone fawns over him for doing what he's supposed to do as a dad).

Omg, yes.

For me the adulation for my DH for fulfilling his role as a parent (he does it very well, I'm grateful!) comes from my mother. She constantly tells me how lucky I am. And I do feel lucky. But I think DH is lucky too, but my mother doesn't.

My mom is the exact opposite. She constantly compares my husband unfavorably to my dad. My dad never made us so much as a sandwich, helped with homework, read to us, tucked us in, NOTHING! He went to work and laid in his recliner. Yet my mom says he was such a good provider and my husband should be making $$$ by now. “You could have done so much better.”

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that OP makes it sound so unfair that he has a second shift and how that is somehow under appreciated. Like he is not supposed to have a second shift but society has conspired to give him one. Meanwhile women just expect it.

This is the thing I notice about men who split parenting and housework relatively equally with their wives (who also work) - they consider it some kind of huge notable thing that they are MEN who have to balance work with family obligations. If they see a lot of men dropping off kids at daycare, they think to themselves, "wow, these men are so evolved" without thinking about the absurdity and injustice of the alternative - dumping both drop off and pickup on the wives that ALSO have jobs. It's not "evolved" that there are men at daycare drop off, it means there are two working parents and the men are more likely to do drop off so they can work later.

I so identify with this comment. Not so much about my husband, who leans in a ton, but the rest of society that acts like I am SO LUCKY to have landed a guy that is such a great dad. Meanwhile, I have the much more demanding job and still do as much. (I do feel lucky, by the way, but it is so grating when everyone fawns over him for doing what he's supposed to do as a dad).

Omg, yes.

For me the adulation for my DH for fulfilling his role as a parent (he does it very well, I'm grateful!) comes from my mother. She constantly tells me how lucky I am. And I do feel lucky. But I think DH is lucky too, but my mother doesn't.

Are you guys really that blind to the historical expectations that have traditionally surround gender? The reason why it’s notable when a man pitches his full self into childcare is that traditionally men had almost zero expectations to provide day to day childcare but he was expected to work and provide for material needs. That’s the same reason why women are lauded more than a man when she becomes a high ranking corporate leader or a top surgeon or military rank etc. The comments come from a sense of novelty. Your victim narrative is in your own mind. Don’t you think it feels a bit patronizing to a man when he is noted for taking care of his own child? It’s not exactly a great thing for anyone involved.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that OP makes it sound so unfair that he has a second shift and how that is somehow under appreciated. Like he is not supposed to have a second shift but society has conspired to give him one. Meanwhile women just expect it.

This is the thing I notice about men who split parenting and housework relatively equally with their wives (who also work) - they consider it some kind of huge notable thing that they are MEN who have to balance work with family obligations. If they see a lot of men dropping off kids at daycare, they think to themselves, "wow, these men are so evolved" without thinking about the absurdity and injustice of the alternative - dumping both drop off and pickup on the wives that ALSO have jobs. It's not "evolved" that there are men at daycare drop off, it means there are two working parents and the men are more likely to do drop off so they can work later.

I so identify with this comment. Not so much about my husband, who leans in a ton, but the rest of society that acts like I am SO LUCKY to have landed a guy that is such a great dad. Meanwhile, I have the much more demanding job and still do as much. (I do feel lucky, by the way, but it is so grating when everyone fawns over him for doing what he's supposed to do as a dad).

Omg, yes.

For me the adulation for my DH for fulfilling his role as a parent (he does it very well, I'm grateful!) comes from my mother. She constantly tells me how lucky I am. And I do feel lucky. But I think DH is lucky too, but my mother doesn't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fastcompany.com/91496750/new-second-shift-burning-out-both-parents

We are a dual working parent household and I so wish we had understood how awful it would be.

We both work in office, commute 30-60 min each way, and work 8-9 hour days. We thought this would be a reasonable setup, with one going in a little early and the other late to handle the morning and evening kid wrangling.

But it has just drained our entire life away. There is always a mess in the house (and now the yard, yay spring), weekends are errands, 7 piles of laundry, cleaning, yardwork.

We don’t make the kind of money we can outsource, like in the article above where they order out for dinner (I think us Millennials order the most takeout of any generation?).

We have no nearby family, no extra cash, and every moment is spoken for. And of course now apparently the good schools we slaved to afford to buy zoned for don’t matter because there won’t be any jobs for our kids.

Just a PSA to GenZ…

Whenever parents complain about this, I always ask, what exactly did you think raising kids was going to be like?

If you grew up in the 80s/90s, this was what life was. Regular daily life was come home, cook dinner, do chores, go to bed. Weekends were more chores, being dragged by your parents to run errands, and trips to the park. A couple times a year you went to the movies, maybe once a month you'd go out for pizza.

Our parents didn't have hobbies. Hell, my parents spent weekends buying junk at flea markets and then re-selling them at our garage sales for extra cash because their salaries didn't cover everything. That was their "hobby".

Messes AND financial problems are easily solved by, get rid of all the crap in your house and quit buying more.

I also want to check their screen time. My xH spent hours a day scrolling his phone, then complained he never had time for anything he wanted to do. Well, duh. Instead of spending 45 minutes pooping, get it done in 2 minutes then go do whatever it is you actually want to do.

Oh you mean when you could live off of one parents income? I grew up in the 90s, my mom stayed home as did virtually every other kid I knew.

As I said in my response, both my parents works and had side hustles. I grew up in North Arlington, and nearly all my friends had parents who both worked. My grandparents, who also lived in North Arlington, also both worked.

Having two incomes has long been the norm in the DC area.

They probably didn’t also have to supplement your education daily because public schools actually educated. Now parents send their kids to school, then have to school at home in the afternoons

DP: You are imagining some ideal that never existed. You have anxiety.

I dunno. My parents never read to me or helped with my homework. My dad worked a lot and my mom is educated but didn't speak English very well at the time.

The notion that kids that don't learn to read and write and do math just have bad parents is a bad excuse for poor instruction and gaping inequities in our education system.

My kids are in their twenties and I honestly think that when people their age say "I don't want to have kids, or maybe just one. When I'm older" it's because they remember what it was when they were growing up and how hard it was with two careers, a couple of kids, a cat, a dog, extracurriculars, no family help nearby, etc. etc. etc.
- They remember the year that my husband and I seriously SPLIT a weeklong vacation with the kids where he flew out on Sunday-Wednesday, then I flew in and finished the vacation with the kids while he flew out because we couldn't make our schedules align.
-They remember the god-awful succession of au pairs and nannies we had, the upsets when they quit, the absurd lengths we went to to keep them, the one that totalled the car with the kids in it, the one that had the boyfriend that was ALWAYS THERE even though we sent him home frequently.
-They remember the 'roster' of meals we had, served the same on Mondays, Tuesdays, because it was the only way we could cope.
-They remember the year that my 'big gift' on Christmas was an electric blanket that you could plug into the car to stay warm while hanging out at someone's extracurricular practice in the parking lot.
-They remember my husband and me tag teaming their swim practices and the time I arrived back from some business trip halfway through their swim practice and I was so tired I couldn't remember their names, etc. etc. etc.
Good times. I kind of see why they don't want it for themselves.

I think - if you don’t want to hate the rest of your parenting life - you have to either move or find a PT or at least hybrid job for one if not both parents.

We have both - DH (primary breadwinner) works in office 2 days a week (but also has night events 1-2x a week and work travel about 1x every other month) and I used to SAH and now only work PT. DH’s office is in Tyson’s and is 25 minutes from our house. It’s still not easy, but it is more doable than what OP describes.

Something has to give, somewhere. You just decide where.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fastcompany.com/91496750/new-second-shift-burning-out-both-parents

We are a dual working parent household and I so wish we had understood how awful it would be.

We both work in office, commute 30-60 min each way, and work 8-9 hour days. We thought this would be a reasonable setup, with one going in a little early and the other late to handle the morning and evening kid wrangling.

But it has just drained our entire life away. There is always a mess in the house (and now the yard, yay spring), weekends are errands, 7 piles of laundry, cleaning, yardwork.

We don’t make the kind of money we can outsource, like in the article above where they order out for dinner (I think us Millennials order the most takeout of any generation?).

We have no nearby family, no extra cash, and every moment is spoken for. And of course now apparently the good schools we slaved to afford to buy zoned for don’t matter because there won’t be any jobs for our kids.

Just a PSA to GenZ…

Laundry is easy to tackle. Do a load daily. Put it in when you wake up. Put it in the dryer before you leave. take it out when you get home and fold it. One load is easy to take care of.

Don't fold it. I stuff sheet sets into a pillowcase. Towels I do fold. Everyone gets their own basket of clean to put away however.

Better yet- make your kids fold. My 7 year old DS folds all the clothes and my 4 year old folds socks. 4 year old also is a great gopher and runs underwear and socks to their drawers in each person's room. My 9 year old does dishes. We've always had them do like 15-30 min of chores a day and they don't even complain.

We moved our entire family across the country to a southern state we didn’t know anyone but found jobs in for this reason. Our life is so simple now. Just move, it’s 2026. You’re not on the Oregon trail, it’s not nearly as difficult as it sounds.

Anonymous wrote:The problem is that OP makes it sound so unfair that he has a second shift and how that is somehow under appreciated. Like he is not supposed to have a second shift but society has conspired to give him one. Meanwhile women just expect it.

This is the thing I notice about men who split parenting and housework relatively equally with their wives (who also work) - they consider it some kind of huge notable thing that they are MEN who have to balance work with family obligations. If they see a lot of men dropping off kids at daycare, they think to themselves, "wow, these men are so evolved" without thinking about the absurdity and injustice of the alternative - dumping both drop off and pickup on the wives that ALSO have jobs. It's not "evolved" that there are men at daycare drop off, it means there are two working parents and the men are more likely to do drop off so they can work later.

I so identify with this comment. Not so much about my husband, who leans in a ton, but the rest of society that acts like I am SO LUCKY to have landed a guy that is such a great dad. Meanwhile, I have the much more demanding job and still do as much. (I do feel lucky, by the way, but it is so grating when everyone fawns over him for doing what he's supposed to do as a dad).

What makes it bad is when a dad has to leave for work just when the kids are coming home from school. Worse yet for dads having to 2nd shift on weekends when the kids are home from school.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT!!!


I thought it was fabulous and amazing to be a WOHM, and SAHMs were a waste of space!!

I thought - SAHMs provided zero value when - house was clean, laundry done, meals cooked, grocery bought, cars serviced, house organized, bills paid, drycleaning picked, social engagements met, entertaining done, kids school and ECs nailed, eldercare sorted, petcare done, yardwork sorted, haircuts scheduled, wellness checkups done, dental and eye exams done, home remodeling/improvement thoughtfully done.

Oh dear! What happened?? Why has life become so shitty???

Wow, scrapping the barrel there.

lol that one and “paying bills”. Sahm always list this as an important task and really how long does this take?

Seriously. Everything is on autopay ot easily done online. I pay bills in Ubers between work meetings. Do I get a prize 😆😆😆

Sure, it's all easy until you have to start playing phone tag with health insurance companies and medical providers to figure out why they are billing you for stuff that should be covered. Or until your 529 provider screws up a rollover. Then it's nice to have an adult with free time during business hours....

We have never encountered anything like this, perhaps you have bad luck with services? Are you in a southern state with worse consumer protections?

I live in Maryland. Have you never had a screwed up insurance claim, or a rejection of services that should be covered? Really? Good for you, but I promise it's not that uncommon. Especially for emergency or hospital care when different specialists and coverage networks are involved.

Yeah we have not. And I’ve been to ED 4x in last 4 years, have a rare disease (like I will probably be someone’s paper, which is not an enviable position). Who is your insurer, we pay for the best plan from our employer so maybe you should shop around if you are a high need family.

Shop around? Thats not an option for employer sponsored healthcare. Youve been 4x in 4 years? Thats not really that often and rare is only rare due to diagnosis not actual incidence of the disease.

Lastly, there are entire groups of state-level employees who keep insruance companies and healthcare servicers in check. I have one submitted right now to the MD AG because the company keeps sending me bills that I dont owe. Ive had to get my insurance company involved as well.

You may just not be looking at your bills that closely. Thats on you.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT, WAIT!!!


I thought it was fabulous and amazing to be a WOHM, and SAHMs were a waste of space!!

I thought - SAHMs provided zero value when - house was clean, laundry done, meals cooked, grocery bought, cars serviced, house organized, bills paid, drycleaning picked, social engagements met, entertaining done, kids school and ECs nailed, eldercare sorted, petcare done, yardwork sorted, haircuts scheduled, wellness checkups done, dental and eye exams done, home remodeling/improvement thoughtfully done.

Oh dear! What happened?? Why has life become so shitty???

Wow, scrapping the barrel there.

lol that one and “paying bills”. Sahm always list this as an important task and really how long does this take?

Seriously. Everything is on autopay ot easily done online. I pay bills in Ubers between work meetings. Do I get a prize 😆😆😆

Sure, it's all easy until you have to start playing phone tag with health insurance companies and medical providers to figure out why they are billing you for stuff that should be covered. Or until your 529 provider screws up a rollover. Then it's nice to have an adult with free time during business hours....

We have never encountered anything like this, perhaps you have bad luck with services? Are you in a southern state with worse consumer protections?

I live in Maryland. Have you never had a screwed up insurance claim, or a rejection of services that should be covered? Really? Good for you, but I promise it's not that uncommon. Especially for emergency or hospital care when different specialists and coverage networks are involved.

Yeah we have not. And I’ve been to ED 4x in last 4 years, have a rare disease (like I will probably be someone’s paper, which is not an enviable position). Who is your insurer, we pay for the best plan from our employer so maybe you should shop around if you are a high need family.

DP I am so glad you haven't had issues with insurance claims. We didn't for years, until we did, and that is because we switched to the expensive plan (still worth it because we simply couldn't access the care we needed on the old one)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:https://www.fastcompany.com/91496750/new-second-shift-burning-out-both-parents

We are a dual working parent household and I so wish we had understood how awful it would be.

We both work in office, commute 30-60 min each way, and work 8-9 hour days. We thought this would be a reasonable setup, with one going in a little early and the other late to handle the morning and evening kid wrangling.

But it has just drained our entire life away. There is always a mess in the house (and now the yard, yay spring), weekends are errands, 7 piles of laundry, cleaning, yardwork.

We don’t make the kind of money we can outsource, like in the article above where they order out for dinner (I think us Millennials order the most takeout of any generation?).

We have no nearby family, no extra cash, and every moment is spoken for. And of course now apparently the good schools we slaved to afford to buy zoned for don’t matter because there won’t be any jobs for our kids.

Just a PSA to GenZ…

Laundry is easy to tackle. Do a load daily. Put it in when you wake up. Put it in the dryer before you leave. take it out when you get home and fold it. One load is easy to take care of.

Don't fold it. I stuff sheet sets into a pillowcase. Towels I do fold. Everyone gets their own basket of clean to put away however.