Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love the idea of the age group determination date being August 1st. Whatever age you are by August 1st is the age group you swim in for that summer season.
So if you turn 9 on August 1st or anytime before that, you swim in 9-10s that whole summer. It makes sense.

Most of the girls in the "8&U" age group who made coach's long course and individual all stars this year were already 9 years old or days/weeks away. The fastest "8&U" girl who is breaking a bunch of MCSL records literally had her birthday announced on the individual all star meet day. Before all you keyboard warriors come at me like OMG ARE YOU A STALKER?! HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEIR AGES?!...this is publicly available information online. If you don't like this, write to you're representative to get legislation in place. It's utterly creepy how publicly available all of our swimmers' info is on MeetMobile etc etc.

Let's not kid ourselves either about "oh this is just for fun!!! It's summer swim you troll!!!! How dare you take this from the children?!?!". I'd say 99% of the 8&U girls who made coach's long course or individual all stars are year-round club swimmers. So they're used to the year-round rule which is....you age up on your birthday. Changing it to August 1st would give ACTUAL 8&Us that aren't club swimmers a chance to make those events.

Changing the date would advantage different kids, but it wouldn’t change the huge advantage that club swimmers have. Why are you confusing those things?

Why even let club swimmers do summer swim at all then?!

I am the PP you quoted. I don’t object to club swimmers swimming, as long as they get that it’s a team rec sport and entirely different from club swimming.

But the PP I quoted seemed to be saying that the advantage that club swimmers have somehow justifies changing the age when the two things are completely separate.

The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others. I have a kid with a late July birthday, he has an advantage in Summer Swim, a disadvantage in his favorite sport which has a August 1 cut off, a bigger disadvantage in lacrosse where they play by age and lots of kids are redshirted, and unclear status in soccer right now because the ages seem to be changing. It just is what it is. But I don’t go demanding that the rules change in any of those sports. Because I am not a poor sport.

DP - I've seen the bolded argument made so many times and I think it's overblown. Is club swim mostly more intense than summer swim? Yes, absolutely. But the best clubs find ways to make practices fun, build a sense of community, and develop supportive teammates. Not all clubs foster an insanely cut-throat, in it for myself mentality. On our summer team at least, it's usually the year-round swimmers who are the best teammates, in the truest sense of the word.

But to that point, here's another rule I think MCSL should have: all kids should participate in a minimum of two practices per week, regardless of club commitments. It's not much of a team when the ringers come in on Saturdays only and clean up. Or, it leads to two very different "teams" within the larger team. That's not much fun, either.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You want 10% of the kids to have to swim completely different lengths of races over the course of a recreational 6-week season? What an idea. Astonish us with more of your brilliance.

Np here. What if they swim the age that they are by divisionals of that season. For example, if they turn 9 on july 15th, they swim as a 9 year old the whole season, 50 free from time trials on.

Once you are 9 it’s because you have completed 9 years of life ( in Spanish your birthday is your cumpleaños—complete year) so you’re more 9 than 8.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love the idea of the age group determination date being August 1st. Whatever age you are by August 1st is the age group you swim in for that summer season.
So if you turn 9 on August 1st or anytime before that, you swim in 9-10s that whole summer. It makes sense.

Most of the girls in the "8&U" age group who made coach's long course and individual all stars this year were already 9 years old or days/weeks away. The fastest "8&U" girl who is breaking a bunch of MCSL records literally had her birthday announced on the individual all star meet day. Before all you keyboard warriors come at me like OMG ARE YOU A STALKER?! HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEIR AGES?!...this is publicly available information online. If you don't like this, write to you're representative to get legislation in place. It's utterly creepy how publicly available all of our swimmers' info is on MeetMobile etc etc.

Let's not kid ourselves either about "oh this is just for fun!!! It's summer swim you troll!!!! How dare you take this from the children?!?!". I'd say 99% of the 8&U girls who made coach's long course or individual all stars are year-round club swimmers. So they're used to the year-round rule which is....you age up on your birthday. Changing it to August 1st would give ACTUAL 8&Us that aren't club swimmers a chance to make those events.

Changing the date would advantage different kids, but it wouldn’t change the huge advantage that club swimmers have. Why are you confusing those things?

Why even let club swimmers do summer swim at all then?!

I am the PP you quoted. I don’t object to club swimmers swimming, as long as they get that it’s a team rec sport and entirely different from club swimming.

But the PP I quoted seemed to be saying that the advantage that club swimmers have somehow justifies changing the age when the two things are completely separate.

The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others. I have a kid with a late July birthday, he has an advantage in Summer Swim, a disadvantage in his favorite sport which has a August 1 cut off, a bigger disadvantage in lacrosse where they play by age and lots of kids are redshirted, and unclear status in soccer right now because the ages seem to be changing. It just is what it is. But I don’t go demanding that the rules change in any of those sports. Because I am not a poor sport.

"The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others."

Except....in club swim. There is no cut off date. You swim as the age you are. You age up on your birthday. That doesn't advantage or disadvantage any kids. It just is what it is. Everyone knows it and accepts it.

I fully support summer swim kids aging up on their birthdays. Someone picking a random arbitrary date and everyone sticking by it for years and years is ludicrous to me. It's like the people that say, "Oh this is how we've always done it! It's tradition!"
A tradition that makes no sense.

Club swim isn't a team sport.

DP - unless a kid is swimming unaffiliated, it's not an entirely individual sport. It's not a team sport in the way that soccer or softball are, but club meets do keep track of team scores/results. So kids are scoring points for their team, even while they're swimming individual events.

As an aside, my kids' club absolutely makes them feel like they're on a team. They cheer for each other at meets, hang out, etc. That's a huge part of the fun.

Yes to all the above plus RELAYS in club meets (wish there were more relays). It isn’t soccer or basketball but there is some teamwork in club swim.

No one is saying that club isn’t fun, or doesn’t develop teamwork.

But summer swim is structured like soccer in that you have a group of kids working together for a clearly defined season towards a team goal. Having kids move from one group to another during the short season doesn’t make sense, just like it doesn’t make sense for soccer players to age up mid season.

The age up argument is so tired and I agree that aging up in the middle of a 6 week season is stupid, but summer swim is not akin to a team sport like soccer or basketball where teamwork and chemistry are a big part of how well a team performs. Summer swim is a bunch of individual swims that score points for the team. Relays are the only area of teamwork and honestly there is not that much teamwork involved in swimming a relay, you dive in and swim your leg.

Chemistry and spirit in our experience actually have a big impact on how kids swim on summer team. Just because they're not ball-handling at the same time doesn't mean they're not competing together and mentoring one another. You sound like you haven't had the good fortune to be on a summer team with a strong culture.

Maybe my experience is skewed because my kid is a year rounder and I find this area’s obsession with summer swim to be completely over the top, but the “spirit” and “chemistry” of their summer team has zero impact on how fast my kid swims. Maybe you could say that your “culture” is so great that the summer only kids want to practice as much as possible and that helps them be better swimmers, but they aren’t actually competing together in a way that chemistry matters as it does on a basketball court or soccer field. Doing a million pancake breakfasts and pep rallies during the season is not actually making kids appreciably faster.

My kid also is a year-rounder and wants to leave absolutely everything in the pool for their summer team, in significant part because of all the support they've received from teammates and coaches over the years.

Mine is kinda the opposite. Does the job, hangs out with friends, but focuses more on club swim meets because those times are considered by colleges.

+1, my 13 and over swimmer is definitely not swimming harder at summer rec league meets than they are at their club meets. Most of the older high level club kids also do not need to swim their best in order to win in the summer.

My kid will rise to the challenge if faced with another club kid who also swims at USA Swimming meets. Doing so is part of the job.

That rising to the challenge isn’t because it’s summer swim though, it’s the competitiveness with another high level swimmer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love the idea of the age group determination date being August 1st. Whatever age you are by August 1st is the age group you swim in for that summer season.
So if you turn 9 on August 1st or anytime before that, you swim in 9-10s that whole summer. It makes sense.

Most of the girls in the "8&U" age group who made coach's long course and individual all stars this year were already 9 years old or days/weeks away. The fastest "8&U" girl who is breaking a bunch of MCSL records literally had her birthday announced on the individual all star meet day. Before all you keyboard warriors come at me like OMG ARE YOU A STALKER?! HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEIR AGES?!...this is publicly available information online. If you don't like this, write to you're representative to get legislation in place. It's utterly creepy how publicly available all of our swimmers' info is on MeetMobile etc etc.

Let's not kid ourselves either about "oh this is just for fun!!! It's summer swim you troll!!!! How dare you take this from the children?!?!". I'd say 99% of the 8&U girls who made coach's long course or individual all stars are year-round club swimmers. So they're used to the year-round rule which is....you age up on your birthday. Changing it to August 1st would give ACTUAL 8&Us that aren't club swimmers a chance to make those events.

Changing the date would advantage different kids, but it wouldn’t change the huge advantage that club swimmers have. Why are you confusing those things?

Why even let club swimmers do summer swim at all then?!

I am the PP you quoted. I don’t object to club swimmers swimming, as long as they get that it’s a team rec sport and entirely different from club swimming.

But the PP I quoted seemed to be saying that the advantage that club swimmers have somehow justifies changing the age when the two things are completely separate.

The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others. I have a kid with a late July birthday, he has an advantage in Summer Swim, a disadvantage in his favorite sport which has a August 1 cut off, a bigger disadvantage in lacrosse where they play by age and lots of kids are redshirted, and unclear status in soccer right now because the ages seem to be changing. It just is what it is. But I don’t go demanding that the rules change in any of those sports. Because I am not a poor sport.

"The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others."

Except....in club swim. There is no cut off date. You swim as the age you are. You age up on your birthday. That doesn't advantage or disadvantage any kids. It just is what it is. Everyone knows it and accepts it.

I fully support summer swim kids aging up on their birthdays. Someone picking a random arbitrary date and everyone sticking by it for years and years is ludicrous to me. It's like the people that say, "Oh this is how we've always done it! It's tradition!"
A tradition that makes no sense.

Club swim isn't a team sport.

DP - unless a kid is swimming unaffiliated, it's not an entirely individual sport. It's not a team sport in the way that soccer or softball are, but club meets do keep track of team scores/results. So kids are scoring points for their team, even while they're swimming individual events.

As an aside, my kids' club absolutely makes them feel like they're on a team. They cheer for each other at meets, hang out, etc. That's a huge part of the fun.

Yes to all the above plus RELAYS in club meets (wish there were more relays). It isn’t soccer or basketball but there is some teamwork in club swim.

No one is saying that club isn’t fun, or doesn’t develop teamwork.

But summer swim is structured like soccer in that you have a group of kids working together for a clearly defined season towards a team goal. Having kids move from one group to another during the short season doesn’t make sense, just like it doesn’t make sense for soccer players to age up mid season.

The age up argument is so tired and I agree that aging up in the middle of a 6 week season is stupid, but summer swim is not akin to a team sport like soccer or basketball where teamwork and chemistry are a big part of how well a team performs. Summer swim is a bunch of individual swims that score points for the team. Relays are the only area of teamwork and honestly there is not that much teamwork involved in swimming a relay, you dive in and swim your leg.

Chemistry and spirit in our experience actually have a big impact on how kids swim on summer team. Just because they're not ball-handling at the same time doesn't mean they're not competing together and mentoring one another. You sound like you haven't had the good fortune to be on a summer team with a strong culture.

Maybe my experience is skewed because my kid is a year rounder and I find this area’s obsession with summer swim to be completely over the top, but the “spirit” and “chemistry” of their summer team has zero impact on how fast my kid swims. Maybe you could say that your “culture” is so great that the summer only kids want to practice as much as possible and that helps them be better swimmers, but they aren’t actually competing together in a way that chemistry matters as it does on a basketball court or soccer field. Doing a million pancake breakfasts and pep rallies during the season is not actually making kids appreciably faster.

My kid also is a year-rounder and wants to leave absolutely everything in the pool for their summer team, in significant part because of all the support they've received from teammates and coaches over the years.

Mine is kinda the opposite. Does the job, hangs out with friends, but focuses more on club swim meets because those times are considered by colleges.

+1, my 13 and over swimmer is definitely not swimming harder at summer rec league meets than they are at their club meets. Most of the older high level club kids also do not need to swim their best in order to win in the summer.

My kid will rise to the challenge if faced with another club kid who also swims at USA Swimming meets. Doing so is part of the job.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love the idea of the age group determination date being August 1st. Whatever age you are by August 1st is the age group you swim in for that summer season.
So if you turn 9 on August 1st or anytime before that, you swim in 9-10s that whole summer. It makes sense.

Most of the girls in the "8&U" age group who made coach's long course and individual all stars this year were already 9 years old or days/weeks away. The fastest "8&U" girl who is breaking a bunch of MCSL records literally had her birthday announced on the individual all star meet day. Before all you keyboard warriors come at me like OMG ARE YOU A STALKER?! HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEIR AGES?!...this is publicly available information online. If you don't like this, write to you're representative to get legislation in place. It's utterly creepy how publicly available all of our swimmers' info is on MeetMobile etc etc.

Let's not kid ourselves either about "oh this is just for fun!!! It's summer swim you troll!!!! How dare you take this from the children?!?!". I'd say 99% of the 8&U girls who made coach's long course or individual all stars are year-round club swimmers. So they're used to the year-round rule which is....you age up on your birthday. Changing it to August 1st would give ACTUAL 8&Us that aren't club swimmers a chance to make those events.

Changing the date would advantage different kids, but it wouldn’t change the huge advantage that club swimmers have. Why are you confusing those things?

Why even let club swimmers do summer swim at all then?!

I am the PP you quoted. I don’t object to club swimmers swimming, as long as they get that it’s a team rec sport and entirely different from club swimming.

But the PP I quoted seemed to be saying that the advantage that club swimmers have somehow justifies changing the age when the two things are completely separate.

The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others. I have a kid with a late July birthday, he has an advantage in Summer Swim, a disadvantage in his favorite sport which has a August 1 cut off, a bigger disadvantage in lacrosse where they play by age and lots of kids are redshirted, and unclear status in soccer right now because the ages seem to be changing. It just is what it is. But I don’t go demanding that the rules change in any of those sports. Because I am not a poor sport.

"The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others."

Except....in club swim. There is no cut off date. You swim as the age you are. You age up on your birthday. That doesn't advantage or disadvantage any kids. It just is what it is. Everyone knows it and accepts it.

I fully support summer swim kids aging up on their birthdays. Someone picking a random arbitrary date and everyone sticking by it for years and years is ludicrous to me. It's like the people that say, "Oh this is how we've always done it! It's tradition!"
A tradition that makes no sense.

Club swim isn't a team sport.

DP - unless a kid is swimming unaffiliated, it's not an entirely individual sport. It's not a team sport in the way that soccer or softball are, but club meets do keep track of team scores/results. So kids are scoring points for their team, even while they're swimming individual events.

As an aside, my kids' club absolutely makes them feel like they're on a team. They cheer for each other at meets, hang out, etc. That's a huge part of the fun.

Yes to all the above plus RELAYS in club meets (wish there were more relays). It isn’t soccer or basketball but there is some teamwork in club swim.

No one is saying that club isn’t fun, or doesn’t develop teamwork.

But summer swim is structured like soccer in that you have a group of kids working together for a clearly defined season towards a team goal. Having kids move from one group to another during the short season doesn’t make sense, just like it doesn’t make sense for soccer players to age up mid season.

The age up argument is so tired and I agree that aging up in the middle of a 6 week season is stupid, but summer swim is not akin to a team sport like soccer or basketball where teamwork and chemistry are a big part of how well a team performs. Summer swim is a bunch of individual swims that score points for the team. Relays are the only area of teamwork and honestly there is not that much teamwork involved in swimming a relay, you dive in and swim your leg.

Chemistry and spirit in our experience actually have a big impact on how kids swim on summer team. Just because they're not ball-handling at the same time doesn't mean they're not competing together and mentoring one another. You sound like you haven't had the good fortune to be on a summer team with a strong culture.

Maybe my experience is skewed because my kid is a year rounder and I find this area’s obsession with summer swim to be completely over the top, but the “spirit” and “chemistry” of their summer team has zero impact on how fast my kid swims. Maybe you could say that your “culture” is so great that the summer only kids want to practice as much as possible and that helps them be better swimmers, but they aren’t actually competing together in a way that chemistry matters as it does on a basketball court or soccer field. Doing a million pancake breakfasts and pep rallies during the season is not actually making kids appreciably faster.

My kid also is a year-rounder and wants to leave absolutely everything in the pool for their summer team, in significant part because of all the support they've received from teammates and coaches over the years.

Mine is kinda the opposite. Does the job, hangs out with friends, but focuses more on club swim meets because those times are considered by colleges.

+1, my 13 and over swimmer is definitely not swimming harder at summer rec league meets than they are at their club meets. Most of the older high level club kids also do not need to swim their best in order to win in the summer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love the idea of the age group determination date being August 1st. Whatever age you are by August 1st is the age group you swim in for that summer season.
So if you turn 9 on August 1st or anytime before that, you swim in 9-10s that whole summer. It makes sense.

Most of the girls in the "8&U" age group who made coach's long course and individual all stars this year were already 9 years old or days/weeks away. The fastest "8&U" girl who is breaking a bunch of MCSL records literally had her birthday announced on the individual all star meet day. Before all you keyboard warriors come at me like OMG ARE YOU A STALKER?! HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEIR AGES?!...this is publicly available information online. If you don't like this, write to you're representative to get legislation in place. It's utterly creepy how publicly available all of our swimmers' info is on MeetMobile etc etc.

Let's not kid ourselves either about "oh this is just for fun!!! It's summer swim you troll!!!! How dare you take this from the children?!?!". I'd say 99% of the 8&U girls who made coach's long course or individual all stars are year-round club swimmers. So they're used to the year-round rule which is....you age up on your birthday. Changing it to August 1st would give ACTUAL 8&Us that aren't club swimmers a chance to make those events.

Changing the date would advantage different kids, but it wouldn’t change the huge advantage that club swimmers have. Why are you confusing those things?

Why even let club swimmers do summer swim at all then?!

I am the PP you quoted. I don’t object to club swimmers swimming, as long as they get that it’s a team rec sport and entirely different from club swimming.

But the PP I quoted seemed to be saying that the advantage that club swimmers have somehow justifies changing the age when the two things are completely separate.

The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others. I have a kid with a late July birthday, he has an advantage in Summer Swim, a disadvantage in his favorite sport which has a August 1 cut off, a bigger disadvantage in lacrosse where they play by age and lots of kids are redshirted, and unclear status in soccer right now because the ages seem to be changing. It just is what it is. But I don’t go demanding that the rules change in any of those sports. Because I am not a poor sport.

"The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others."

Except....in club swim. There is no cut off date. You swim as the age you are. You age up on your birthday. That doesn't advantage or disadvantage any kids. It just is what it is. Everyone knows it and accepts it.

I fully support summer swim kids aging up on their birthdays. Someone picking a random arbitrary date and everyone sticking by it for years and years is ludicrous to me. It's like the people that say, "Oh this is how we've always done it! It's tradition!"
A tradition that makes no sense.

Club swim isn't a team sport.

DP - unless a kid is swimming unaffiliated, it's not an entirely individual sport. It's not a team sport in the way that soccer or softball are, but club meets do keep track of team scores/results. So kids are scoring points for their team, even while they're swimming individual events.

As an aside, my kids' club absolutely makes them feel like they're on a team. They cheer for each other at meets, hang out, etc. That's a huge part of the fun.

Yes to all the above plus RELAYS in club meets (wish there were more relays). It isn’t soccer or basketball but there is some teamwork in club swim.

No one is saying that club isn’t fun, or doesn’t develop teamwork.

But summer swim is structured like soccer in that you have a group of kids working together for a clearly defined season towards a team goal. Having kids move from one group to another during the short season doesn’t make sense, just like it doesn’t make sense for soccer players to age up mid season.

The age up argument is so tired and I agree that aging up in the middle of a 6 week season is stupid, but summer swim is not akin to a team sport like soccer or basketball where teamwork and chemistry are a big part of how well a team performs. Summer swim is a bunch of individual swims that score points for the team. Relays are the only area of teamwork and honestly there is not that much teamwork involved in swimming a relay, you dive in and swim your leg.

Chemistry and spirit in our experience actually have a big impact on how kids swim on summer team. Just because they're not ball-handling at the same time doesn't mean they're not competing together and mentoring one another. You sound like you haven't had the good fortune to be on a summer team with a strong culture.

Maybe my experience is skewed because my kid is a year rounder and I find this area’s obsession with summer swim to be completely over the top, but the “spirit” and “chemistry” of their summer team has zero impact on how fast my kid swims. Maybe you could say that your “culture” is so great that the summer only kids want to practice as much as possible and that helps them be better swimmers, but they aren’t actually competing together in a way that chemistry matters as it does on a basketball court or soccer field. Doing a million pancake breakfasts and pep rallies during the season is not actually making kids appreciably faster.

My kid also is a year-rounder and wants to leave absolutely everything in the pool for their summer team, in significant part because of all the support they've received from teammates and coaches over the years.

Mine is kinda the opposite. Does the job, hangs out with friends, but focuses more on club swim meets because those times are considered by colleges.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love the idea of the age group determination date being August 1st. Whatever age you are by August 1st is the age group you swim in for that summer season.
So if you turn 9 on August 1st or anytime before that, you swim in 9-10s that whole summer. It makes sense.

Most of the girls in the "8&U" age group who made coach's long course and individual all stars this year were already 9 years old or days/weeks away. The fastest "8&U" girl who is breaking a bunch of MCSL records literally had her birthday announced on the individual all star meet day. Before all you keyboard warriors come at me like OMG ARE YOU A STALKER?! HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEIR AGES?!...this is publicly available information online. If you don't like this, write to you're representative to get legislation in place. It's utterly creepy how publicly available all of our swimmers' info is on MeetMobile etc etc.

Let's not kid ourselves either about "oh this is just for fun!!! It's summer swim you troll!!!! How dare you take this from the children?!?!". I'd say 99% of the 8&U girls who made coach's long course or individual all stars are year-round club swimmers. So they're used to the year-round rule which is....you age up on your birthday. Changing it to August 1st would give ACTUAL 8&Us that aren't club swimmers a chance to make those events.

Changing the date would advantage different kids, but it wouldn’t change the huge advantage that club swimmers have. Why are you confusing those things?

Why even let club swimmers do summer swim at all then?!

I am the PP you quoted. I don’t object to club swimmers swimming, as long as they get that it’s a team rec sport and entirely different from club swimming.

But the PP I quoted seemed to be saying that the advantage that club swimmers have somehow justifies changing the age when the two things are completely separate.

The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others. I have a kid with a late July birthday, he has an advantage in Summer Swim, a disadvantage in his favorite sport which has a August 1 cut off, a bigger disadvantage in lacrosse where they play by age and lots of kids are redshirted, and unclear status in soccer right now because the ages seem to be changing. It just is what it is. But I don’t go demanding that the rules change in any of those sports. Because I am not a poor sport.

"The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others."

Except....in club swim. There is no cut off date. You swim as the age you are. You age up on your birthday. That doesn't advantage or disadvantage any kids. It just is what it is. Everyone knows it and accepts it.

I fully support summer swim kids aging up on their birthdays. Someone picking a random arbitrary date and everyone sticking by it for years and years is ludicrous to me. It's like the people that say, "Oh this is how we've always done it! It's tradition!"
A tradition that makes no sense.

Club swim isn't a team sport.

DP - unless a kid is swimming unaffiliated, it's not an entirely individual sport. It's not a team sport in the way that soccer or softball are, but club meets do keep track of team scores/results. So kids are scoring points for their team, even while they're swimming individual events.

As an aside, my kids' club absolutely makes them feel like they're on a team. They cheer for each other at meets, hang out, etc. That's a huge part of the fun.

Yes to all the above plus RELAYS in club meets (wish there were more relays). It isn’t soccer or basketball but there is some teamwork in club swim.

No one is saying that club isn’t fun, or doesn’t develop teamwork.

But summer swim is structured like soccer in that you have a group of kids working together for a clearly defined season towards a team goal. Having kids move from one group to another during the short season doesn’t make sense, just like it doesn’t make sense for soccer players to age up mid season.

The age up argument is so tired and I agree that aging up in the middle of a 6 week season is stupid, but summer swim is not akin to a team sport like soccer or basketball where teamwork and chemistry are a big part of how well a team performs. Summer swim is a bunch of individual swims that score points for the team. Relays are the only area of teamwork and honestly there is not that much teamwork involved in swimming a relay, you dive in and swim your leg.

Chemistry and spirit in our experience actually have a big impact on how kids swim on summer team. Just because they're not ball-handling at the same time doesn't mean they're not competing together and mentoring one another. You sound like you haven't had the good fortune to be on a summer team with a strong culture.

Maybe my experience is skewed because my kid is a year rounder and I find this area’s obsession with summer swim to be completely over the top, but the “spirit” and “chemistry” of their summer team has zero impact on how fast my kid swims. Maybe you could say that your “culture” is so great that the summer only kids want to practice as much as possible and that helps them be better swimmers, but they aren’t actually competing together in a way that chemistry matters as it does on a basketball court or soccer field. Doing a million pancake breakfasts and pep rallies during the season is not actually making kids appreciably faster.

My kid also is a year-rounder and wants to leave absolutely everything in the pool for their summer team, in significant part because of all the support they've received from teammates and coaches over the years.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love the idea of the age group determination date being August 1st. Whatever age you are by August 1st is the age group you swim in for that summer season.
So if you turn 9 on August 1st or anytime before that, you swim in 9-10s that whole summer. It makes sense.

Most of the girls in the "8&U" age group who made coach's long course and individual all stars this year were already 9 years old or days/weeks away. The fastest "8&U" girl who is breaking a bunch of MCSL records literally had her birthday announced on the individual all star meet day. Before all you keyboard warriors come at me like OMG ARE YOU A STALKER?! HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEIR AGES?!...this is publicly available information online. If you don't like this, write to you're representative to get legislation in place. It's utterly creepy how publicly available all of our swimmers' info is on MeetMobile etc etc.

Let's not kid ourselves either about "oh this is just for fun!!! It's summer swim you troll!!!! How dare you take this from the children?!?!". I'd say 99% of the 8&U girls who made coach's long course or individual all stars are year-round club swimmers. So they're used to the year-round rule which is....you age up on your birthday. Changing it to August 1st would give ACTUAL 8&Us that aren't club swimmers a chance to make those events.

Changing the date would advantage different kids, but it wouldn’t change the huge advantage that club swimmers have. Why are you confusing those things?

Why even let club swimmers do summer swim at all then?!

I am the PP you quoted. I don’t object to club swimmers swimming, as long as they get that it’s a team rec sport and entirely different from club swimming.

But the PP I quoted seemed to be saying that the advantage that club swimmers have somehow justifies changing the age when the two things are completely separate.

The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others. I have a kid with a late July birthday, he has an advantage in Summer Swim, a disadvantage in his favorite sport which has a August 1 cut off, a bigger disadvantage in lacrosse where they play by age and lots of kids are redshirted, and unclear status in soccer right now because the ages seem to be changing. It just is what it is. But I don’t go demanding that the rules change in any of those sports. Because I am not a poor sport.

"The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others."

Except....in club swim. There is no cut off date. You swim as the age you are. You age up on your birthday. That doesn't advantage or disadvantage any kids. It just is what it is. Everyone knows it and accepts it.

I fully support summer swim kids aging up on their birthdays. Someone picking a random arbitrary date and everyone sticking by it for years and years is ludicrous to me. It's like the people that say, "Oh this is how we've always done it! It's tradition!"
A tradition that makes no sense.

Club swim isn't a team sport.

DP - unless a kid is swimming unaffiliated, it's not an entirely individual sport. It's not a team sport in the way that soccer or softball are, but club meets do keep track of team scores/results. So kids are scoring points for their team, even while they're swimming individual events.

As an aside, my kids' club absolutely makes them feel like they're on a team. They cheer for each other at meets, hang out, etc. That's a huge part of the fun.

Yes to all the above plus RELAYS in club meets (wish there were more relays). It isn’t soccer or basketball but there is some teamwork in club swim.

No one is saying that club isn’t fun, or doesn’t develop teamwork.

But summer swim is structured like soccer in that you have a group of kids working together for a clearly defined season towards a team goal. Having kids move from one group to another during the short season doesn’t make sense, just like it doesn’t make sense for soccer players to age up mid season.

The age up argument is so tired and I agree that aging up in the middle of a 6 week season is stupid, but summer swim is not akin to a team sport like soccer or basketball where teamwork and chemistry are a big part of how well a team performs. Summer swim is a bunch of individual swims that score points for the team. Relays are the only area of teamwork and honestly there is not that much teamwork involved in swimming a relay, you dive in and swim your leg.

Chemistry and spirit in our experience actually have a big impact on how kids swim on summer team. Just because they're not ball-handling at the same time doesn't mean they're not competing together and mentoring one another. You sound like you haven't had the good fortune to be on a summer team with a strong culture.

Maybe my experience is skewed because my kid is a year rounder and I find this area’s obsession with summer swim to be completely over the top, but the “spirit” and “chemistry” of their summer team has zero impact on how fast my kid swims. Maybe you could say that your “culture” is so great that the summer only kids want to practice as much as possible and that helps them be better swimmers, but they aren’t actually competing together in a way that chemistry matters as it does on a basketball court or soccer field. Doing a million pancake breakfasts and pep rallies during the season is not actually making kids appreciably faster.

Anonymous wrote:The main problem ,imo, with MCLS is the elitism, imo, that results in a smallish number of team members swimming at and deciding "A" swim meets. There is no reason why meets can't have more heats and include more team members in the swimming and scoring. PMSL seems far more inclusive. If you're a A or AA mcsl swimmer that can't crack an A meet...join a PMSL pool is my suggestion. HoCo also maybe though I'm less familiar. PMSL, everyone basically swims at A meets. If they need more heats, the teams typically agree to just have more heats. BFD.
If you're a good swimmer, why would you join a summer swim team where you have 2, 3, 5 people ahead of you for A meets? You only live once.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I love the idea of the age group determination date being August 1st. Whatever age you are by August 1st is the age group you swim in for that summer season.
So if you turn 9 on August 1st or anytime before that, you swim in 9-10s that whole summer. It makes sense.

Most of the girls in the "8&U" age group who made coach's long course and individual all stars this year were already 9 years old or days/weeks away. The fastest "8&U" girl who is breaking a bunch of MCSL records literally had her birthday announced on the individual all star meet day. Before all you keyboard warriors come at me like OMG ARE YOU A STALKER?! HOW WOULD YOU KNOW THEIR AGES?!...this is publicly available information online. If you don't like this, write to you're representative to get legislation in place. It's utterly creepy how publicly available all of our swimmers' info is on MeetMobile etc etc.

Let's not kid ourselves either about "oh this is just for fun!!! It's summer swim you troll!!!! How dare you take this from the children?!?!". I'd say 99% of the 8&U girls who made coach's long course or individual all stars are year-round club swimmers. So they're used to the year-round rule which is....you age up on your birthday. Changing it to August 1st would give ACTUAL 8&Us that aren't club swimmers a chance to make those events.

Changing the date would advantage different kids, but it wouldn’t change the huge advantage that club swimmers have. Why are you confusing those things?

Why even let club swimmers do summer swim at all then?!

I am the PP you quoted. I don’t object to club swimmers swimming, as long as they get that it’s a team rec sport and entirely different from club swimming.

But the PP I quoted seemed to be saying that the advantage that club swimmers have somehow justifies changing the age when the two things are completely separate.

The reality is that every team sport has a cut off date that advantages some kids and disadvantages others. I have a kid with a late July birthday, he has an advantage in Summer Swim, a disadvantage in his favorite sport which has a August 1 cut off, a bigger disadvantage in lacrosse where they play by age and lots of kids are redshirted, and unclear status in soccer right now because the ages seem to be changing. It just is what it is. But I don’t go demanding that the rules change in any of those sports. Because I am not a poor sport.

DP - I've seen the bolded argument made so many times and I think it's overblown. Is club swim mostly more intense than summer swim? Yes, absolutely. But the best clubs find ways to make practices fun, build a sense of community, and develop supportive teammates. Not all clubs foster an insanely cut-throat, in it for myself mentality. On our summer team at least, it's usually the year-round swimmers who are the best teammates, in the truest sense of the word.

But to that point, here's another rule I think MCSL should have: all kids should participate in a minimum of two practices per week, regardless of club commitments. It's not much of a team when the ringers come in on Saturdays only and clean up. Or, it leads to two very different "teams" within the larger team. That's not much fun, either.