DCUM Forum

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:58 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

It seems like you need to find a college for your kid that aligns with those views. Good luck

Seems like you have no argument against what I stated, that these institutions are primarily about education and academia, and therefore, it makes sense to use some academic metric when looking at admissions. Otherwise, why would they still want to see the GPA? Why not just go with an essay, and extra curricular, all non academic activities of colleges here are "much about the outside the classroom aspects "?

BTW, are you assuming I am not an American, educated in the US?

They aren't primarily about academia. If you look at what they say, it's usually some version of creating/moulding better leaders/citizens

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:57 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

This is interesting and very good to know. Are these admissions tests typically like the SATs — or assessments of specific course content? Or something completely different from what most of us in the US would be familiar with? Not that I understand how it works, but are the tests more like the British O and A level exams?

https://www.businessinsider.com/sample-questions-from-chinas-gaokao-one-of-worlds-toughest-tests-2018-6

South Korea's version

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-46181240

It's not just that the test is hard, it's that the test is the application. GPA/recommendations/essays... arent a thing. You either do well enough on the test or you dont.

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:56 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Thankfully, you shouldn't worry about an expensive selective school if student learning is your sole goal. A community college teacher likely cares a lot more about your student's learning than a top prof who is there to research and has little choice but to teach.

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:56 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

It seems like you need to find a college for your kid that aligns with those views. Good luck

Seems like you have no argument against what I stated, that these institutions are primarily about education and academia, and therefore, it makes sense to use some academic metric when looking at admissions. Otherwise, why would they still want to see the GPA? Why not just go with an essay, and extra curricular, all non academic activities of colleges here are "much about the outside the classroom aspects "?

BTW, are you assuming I am not an American, educated in the US?

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:55 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

+1

Agree. But as an immigrant, I would have appreciated someone tell me 1.) test scores are not the only way to get an education in the U.S. and 2.) Not everyone can go "ivy" 3.) Plenty of Americans attend great schools, too 4.) Everyone goes to college nowadays, which means the US is now as competitive as any other country. Lastly, 5.) the "stupid American" sentiment is overused - and no longer accurate

I’ve lived overseas and attended school overseas. You really do have to do your research before you go. The US system is very different from other countries. It has some great benefits and some parts that are not so great. Don’t know where you are from, but #5 is a little odd to me as a former ex pat. I’d never underestimate my host country residents on their own turf.

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:53 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

This is interesting and very good to know. Are these admissions tests typically like the SATs — or assessments of specific course content? Or something completely different from what most of us in the US would be familiar with? Not that I understand how it works, but are the tests more like the British O and A level exams?

https://www.businessinsider.com/sample-questions-from-chinas-gaokao-one-of-worlds-toughest-tests-2018-6

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:53 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Professor here. How do you know your students’ SAT math scores?

+1

Exactly.

For some reason, a small subset of people are obsessed with SAT scores.

It's ONE data point due to performance for a fixed 3-hour interval ( soon to be 2 hours).

People don't talk about your SAT score in college. That's silly.

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:49 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

I honestly don't care whether those student bodies are 30% black or 3% black, so long as the admissions factors are race-neutral. I don't want a college excluding or including anyone because of the color of their skin.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Nothing in elite private college admissions is "fair."

They are the "sellers" here and will pick whomever they want to shape a class.

At lot of Asians come from countries where test scores are the determining factor for state college admission (in some countries private universities is a very new thing). It is all they know. Study hard, get good grades and test scores so you can hopefully get into a good state university. It is why some can't understand why the same process does not work, and will never work, in the U.S. Private institutions will always find a way to gerrymander the applicants to get the desired mix of students.
Most people who say this mean they want a way to game admissions in their favor. The last thing they want is a fair process.

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:44 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

DP : But what about everyone else? Real question: what’s the percentage of students who choose “quantitative “ majors? Outside of service academies and Tech schools, what’s a ballpark figure of how many students you’re talking about? I’m thinking it’s very small, but that’s based solely on my own academic experiences which have had a heavy liberal arts bias.

Oddly, at one point, SATs were probably one of the most significant factors that got URM students INTO highly selective schools in the first place. I think SATs are being misunderstood by many people as being a much more significant factor in admissions than they actually are — particularly after a certain range of scores.

Define quantitative. This is from 2017, https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2017/11/16/concentrations-2017/ but the rankings were Econ followed by comp sci followed by government, applied math and psychology. Three out of those. five are absolutely quantitive. For the other two, you're not going to be able to read a research paper or conduct a study without understanding math, but careful course selection may let you avoid that.

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:41 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

DP : But what about everyone else? Real question: what’s the percentage of students who choose “quantitative “ majors? Outside of service academies and Tech schools, what’s a ballpark figure of how many students you’re talking about? I’m thinking it’s very small, but that’s based solely on my own academic experiences which have had a heavy liberal arts bias.

Oddly, at one point, SATs were probably one of the most significant factors that got URM students INTO highly selective schools in the first place. I think SATs are being misunderstood by many people as being a much more significant factor in admissions than they actually are — particularly after a certain range of scores.

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:40 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

Do you really think Harvard would taint it's prestige by admitting students it didn't think these students would be successful?
The graduation rates for "unqualified" URMs are almost the same as Whites and Asians. Maybe you and your fancy brain can explain why these low-scoring URMs are not flunking out like you think they should.

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:39 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

It seems like you need to find a college for your kid that aligns with those views. Good luck

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:35 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

How do you know that others are not studying and working hard? And why do you get to tell a private institution how to design their admission standards?

No one is entitled to admission to Harvard. They pick you, not the other way around. Get over yourself and your entitlements.

If your hard work is not enough, you either work harder or find other options instead of asking for free seats.
Nobody is entitled to anything and also nobody should be discriminated. Even Harvard cannot discriminate.

No one is getting “free seats.”

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:34 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

DP.. here's the thing. Grading is not an accurate picture of achievement, either, since grades can be inflated.

So, what academic metric should be used for admissions to an academic institution?

You keep referring to “academic institution[s]” as though that is all they are. They are more than simply academic institutions. College isn’t only about academics in the US, it is about much more than that.

I think this is why some posters have trouble with the concept of college admissions here: they mistakenly believe that it is supposed to be about academics and only academics.

I think you did not read the "DP" part.

In any case, colleges may be more than just about academics, but its primary purpose is academics and education. Otherwise it wouldn't be categorized as such with the IRS -- " educational institution ".

It also wouldn't hand out grades if it wasn't about academics.

There’s a lot that goes into educating young people that is outside classroom academics. Undergrad colleges here are as much about the outside the classroom aspects as they are about inside the classroom.

You can see it however you want it, but according to the IRS, colleges are academic institutions, and education is their primary goal. What you are referring to is just fluff. I'm not spending thousands of dollars for my kid to just have fun outside the classroom. The primary reason for going to college is to further their education, not "experience outside the classroom" fluff which is secondary.

Anonymous

11/03/2022 16:31 Subject: Re:Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Harvard has 6.56% Black students
Yale has 6.53% Black students
Princeton has 10% Black students (undergrad)

Can someone please explain to me how this is unacceptable to folks? Would y'all prefer those percentages be 0%??

https://datausa.io/profile/university/harvard-university#:~:text=The%20enrolled%20student%20population%20at%20Harvard%20University%20is%2039.7%25%20White,Hawaiian%20or%20Other%20Pacific%20Islanders.
https://datausa.io/profile/university/yale-university
https://inclusive.princeton.edu/about/demographics

Why don't you study and work hard if you want to get into elite colleges? You think some people should have guaranteed seats?Isn't it common sense?

Many people study and work hard and get into elite schools.

Then other people get mad, take their SAT score and create lawsuits to say those people did not belong in an elite college based solely on their SAT score.

Why do these people assume they should get the seat instead?

Wrong again.
Nothing was ever based solely on SAT score.

Frankly, nothing should be based on SAT scores. It's a billion dollar industry racket.

And it's basically guaranteed this won't be the case due to test-optional.

Any professor who has ever taught even quasi-quantitative courses (which I have) will tell you that the math score on the SAT is the single best predictor of performance and ability in quantitative fields, unless you have something like a statewide or national award in a competitive technical field. You can poopoo the test and celebrate test optional and claim that URM candidates with lower scores are just as good for those fields. But all of those things are foolish.

+1 math is math. It's a universal language. The answer is either right or wrong. At some point, you need the right answer and not just "explain your thinking". Whether it's the SAT, ACT or AP calc, there needs to be some indication that you can get the right answer. Grading is too subject, and over inflated. Standardized test scores is the great equalizer in terms comparing math skills from people all over the world.