Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Looking at Zillow, there are pages and pages of new $500k to $1mn plus homes in Oxford, Oxford Township, and Metamora Township within the district's boundaries. This isn't some aww shucks backwater rust belt exurb. And take a look at the whopping salaries of the bureaucracy at the Oakland County ISD, which is the umbrella over Oxford schools:

https://www.mackinac.org/salaries?report=education...rt=wage2020-desc&filter=oakland+county%20intermediate

Also from Zillow:
The typical home value of homes in Oxford is $350,830. This value is seasonally adjusted and only includes the middle price tier of homes. Oxford home values have gone up 16.3% over the past year.

And the population:
The average household income in Oxford is $80,894 with a poverty rate of 7.14%.


They are not an aw-shucks backwater? Who said that? But they are not a wealthy area overall. Wealthier homeowners have been building there with the idea of getting a large house with more land, but the original population is still there.

Anonymous wrote:Looking at Zillow, there are pages and pages of new $500k to $1mn plus homes in Oxford, Oxford Township, and Metamora Township within the district's boundaries. This isn't some aww shucks backwater rust belt exurb. And take a look at the whopping salaries of the bureaucracy at the Oakland County ISD, which is the umbrella over Oxford schools:

https://www.mackinac.org/salaries?report=education...rt=wage2020-desc&filter=oakland+county%20intermediate

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe schools should actually hire trained psychologists (and not just one to supervise a huge cluster of schools) rather than warm bodies with “social work” degrees or whatever it is they are hiring now.

I CANNOT believe that counselor didn’t take one look at that drawing and the internet search and go immediately to the principal/police. JFC - the kids practically sky wrote what he was about to do.

Ah yes, a psychology degree is the magical factor that was missing here after at least a dozen people were aware of this kid's problems and failed to stop him.

Exactly. More six-figure freeloaders with degree mill credentials were needed at the district and the county level. Not enough worthless bureaucracy and layers of fiefdoms in Michigan's wealthiest county.

Social workers are much more effective in these types of situations. Despite "only" having a Masters degree.

But it is EXTREMELY difficult to predict danger with accuracy, even for highly trained forensic psychologists. The "science" is just not that developed.

Of course, after the fact when you are posting on DCUM, the answer is obvious.

But there are thousands of poorly paid professionals making such judgement calls everyday in the US.

Their work would certainly be less high stakes in other countries, where guns are not so widely available.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Feherty the heck is freep?

Detroit Free Press. Sorry. One of the article linked in this thread was from there, and their web address is freep.com.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe schools should actually hire trained psychologists (and not just one to supervise a huge cluster of schools) rather than warm bodies with “social work” degrees or whatever it is they are hiring now.

I CANNOT believe that counselor didn’t take one look at that drawing and the internet search and go immediately to the principal/police. JFC - the kids practically sky wrote what he was about to do.

Ah yes, a psychology degree is the magical factor that was missing here after at least a dozen people were aware of this kid's problems and failed to stop him.

Exactly. More six-figure freeloaders with degree mill credentials were needed at the district and the county level. Not enough worthless bureaucracy and layers of fiefdoms in Michigan's wealthiest county.

Social workers are much more effective in these types of situations. Despite "only" having a Masters degree.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Maybe schools should actually hire trained psychologists (and not just one to supervise a huge cluster of schools) rather than warm bodies with “social work” degrees or whatever it is they are hiring now.

I CANNOT believe that counselor didn’t take one look at that drawing and the internet search and go immediately to the principal/police. JFC - the kids practically sky wrote what he was about to do.

Ah yes, a psychology degree is the magical factor that was missing here after at least a dozen people were aware of this kid's problems and failed to stop him.

Exactly. More six-figure freeloaders with degree mill credentials were needed at the district and the county level. Not enough worthless bureaucracy and layers of fiefdoms in Michigan's wealthiest county.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the prosecutors must have info to a lot more evidence we have not yet seen. They seem very confident in their ability to charge the parents and did it very quickly.

A decision like this usually takes more time, if there are elements of doubt.

+1

Even just based on what we do know, these parents behaved egregiously. This is the most favorable fact pattern for a prosecutor in these circumstances that I've ever seen.

I think it's both. The prosecutor seems to be campaigning for higher office with every move she makes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you look at his old YouTube videos from a few years ago, he appears like a sweet, polite child talking about his boat collection and playing basketball with a group of friends; in one he his conscientious of the cost of a souvenir at a bear attraction.His parents can use these as evidence that they had no idea of his decline into a dark world.

Even the day of, while they had him locked in an office (?) for 2 hours -- waiting for his parents to arrive from work? -- he asked if he could do his science homework because he was worried about missing class work!

Is it possible the line of questioning from school officials to he and his parents is maybe what triggered something in him?

This ridiculous fan fiction ignores the fact that he had the gun and ammunition on his person.

Fan fiction? It's on the record fact he was asking if he could do science homework while in the office Tuesday morning, because he was worried about missing class assignments:
https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/12/superintendent-asks-for-third-party-review-on-events-that-led-up-to-oxford-high-school-shooting.html

The science thing is odd and it either is evidence that he was a sociopath calmly pretending it was all fine or (more likely) a kid with a significant cognitive disconnect. My own kid was in a police car being taken to an ER for suicidal threats and was making plans about buying tickets for something they wanted to do. I was thinking WTF do they not realize if they kill themselves we will not be attending that. Their brains can just run on two totally different tracks.

Also, if the kid denied suicidal ideation and told the counselor it was just for a video game he was designing, I’m really not sure most counselors would have done anything differently for a kid that has not disciplinary history and seemed to be otherwise engaged in school and responding appropriately to questions. I might not be understanding the totality of what they had, though.

My take is that the counselors were asking what might about to screening questions and may not have had the skill set for this level of immediate assessment the way someone experienced in psych assessment would. The note was an indicator of suicidal ideation and as such would have warranted a check of locker and backpack and maybe requiring parents to confirm guns were CURRENTLY secure to rule out access to weapons at the time.

I was thinking a little differently, that the counselors were focused on the kid's mental health, but erred on what they thought would keep him safe-- IOW, they thought he'd be safer at school than home alone where he could self-harm. If the principal and vice principals had been looped in, they would have brought the mindset of assuring the safety of everyone else from this kid as well. Counselors are geared toward helping the individuals in front of them, while principals are tasked with managing the entire school. The problem was that the kid was a danger to self and others, so there was a mismatch between the nature and scope of the problem and the responsibilities of the particular school personnel who were making the decisions that day. Same with the school resource officer, whose primary responsibility is to the school as a whole. His involvement would have almost surely made a difference.

Long way of saying that the principal would have probably insisted on checking his backpack.

Also, I bet the counselor sitting there with the kid for all that time, was falsely reassured watching the kid worry about his science homework and other normal behavior. A principal would have probably been coming in and out and would be less likely to let his skepticism down.

Just speculating here, obviously, but it's good to remember that these are all regular human beings acting as humans do-- They bring their own preconceived ideas, gut instincts, empathy, bias, naïveté, analytic skills, good intentions, flawed reasoning and just human imperfection to every situation.

Great post and perspective shared. Everyone has their blind spots.

Wait--school admin was NOT involved at the time? I completely missed it if that's the case.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the prosecutors must have info to a lot more evidence we have not yet seen. They seem very confident in their ability to charge the parents and did it very quickly.

A decision like this usually takes more time, if there are elements of doubt.

+1

Even just based on what we do know, these parents behaved egregiously. This is the most favorable fact pattern for a prosecutor in these circumstances that I've ever seen.

I think it's both. The prosecutor seems to be campaigning for higher office with every move she makes.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I feel like the prosecutors must have info to a lot more evidence we have not yet seen. They seem very confident in their ability to charge the parents and did it very quickly.

A decision like this usually takes more time, if there are elements of doubt.

+1

Even just based on what we do know, these parents behaved egregiously. This is the most favorable fact pattern for a prosecutor in these circumstances that I've ever seen.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If you look at his old YouTube videos from a few years ago, he appears like a sweet, polite child talking about his boat collection and playing basketball with a group of friends; in one he his conscientious of the cost of a souvenir at a bear attraction.His parents can use these as evidence that they had no idea of his decline into a dark world.

Even the day of, while they had him locked in an office (?) for 2 hours -- waiting for his parents to arrive from work? -- he asked if he could do his science homework because he was worried about missing class work!

Is it possible the line of questioning from school officials to he and his parents is maybe what triggered something in him?

This ridiculous fan fiction ignores the fact that he had the gun and ammunition on his person.

Fan fiction? It's on the record fact he was asking if he could do science homework while in the office Tuesday morning, because he was worried about missing class assignments:
https://www.mlive.com/news/2021/12/superintendent-asks-for-third-party-review-on-events-that-led-up-to-oxford-high-school-shooting.html

The science thing is odd and it either is evidence that he was a sociopath calmly pretending it was all fine or (more likely) a kid with a significant cognitive disconnect. My own kid was in a police car being taken to an ER for suicidal threats and was making plans about buying tickets for something they wanted to do. I was thinking WTF do they not realize if they kill themselves we will not be attending that. Their brains can just run on two totally different tracks.

Also, if the kid denied suicidal ideation and told the counselor it was just for a video game he was designing, I’m really not sure most counselors would have done anything differently for a kid that has not disciplinary history and seemed to be otherwise engaged in school and responding appropriately to questions. I might not be understanding the totality of what they had, though.

My take is that the counselors were asking what might about to screening questions and may not have had the skill set for this level of immediate assessment the way someone experienced in psych assessment would. The note was an indicator of suicidal ideation and as such would have warranted a check of locker and backpack and maybe requiring parents to confirm guns were CURRENTLY secure to rule out access to weapons at the time.

I was thinking a little differently, that the counselors were focused on the kid's mental health, but erred on what they thought would keep him safe-- IOW, they thought he'd be safer at school than home alone where he could self-harm. If the principal and vice principals had been looped in, they would have brought the mindset of assuring the safety of everyone else from this kid as well. Counselors are geared toward helping the individuals in front of them, while principals are tasked with managing the entire school. The problem was that the kid was a danger to self and others, so there was a mismatch between the nature and scope of the problem and the responsibilities of the particular school personnel who were making the decisions that day. Same with the school resource officer, whose primary responsibility is to the school as a whole. His involvement would have almost surely made a difference.

Long way of saying that the principal would have probably insisted on checking his backpack.

Also, I bet the counselor sitting there with the kid for all that time, was falsely reassured watching the kid worry about his science homework and other normal behavior. A principal would have probably been coming in and out and would be less likely to let his skepticism down.

Just speculating here, obviously, but it's good to remember that these are all regular human beings acting as humans do-- They bring their own preconceived ideas, gut instincts, empathy, bias, naïveté, analytic skills, good intentions, flawed reasoning and just human imperfection to every situation.

Great post and perspective shared. Everyone has their blind spots.