DCUM Forum

Anonymous

04/27/2021 16:43 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:I think there's a big difference between having a cleaning lady and a landscaper vs. having a nanny basically be a parent for your kids. There are very few jobs that are really would require that anyway. But kids do resent a lack of time with their parents. My mother had an intense job, and I resented it. So I work but I remain vigilant about how present and engaged I am with my kids. Everybody is having these same struggles and honestly there need to be policy changes if we expect both parents to work.

Well-said -- and I, too, had a mom with an intense job. I would suggest, though, that we might, as individuals, families, and as a society, reconsider our expectation that both parents WOTH throughout the entire span of child-rearing. We might do better if we focus on creating greater opportunities for on-ramping SAHPs once their kids get older -- and, note that I say parents -- not just moms.

Anonymous

04/27/2021 16:41 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Well reading this explains why I have been struggling to keep up at my Fed attorney job, and get a halfway decent amount of sleep, the last few years. I can’t afford a nanny, but outsourcing some of these tasks would help tremendously. Sometimes I feel like I’m trying to maintain SAHM/part-time WOHM parenting standards, despite having a job that requires 50 hours a week at a minimum to avoid falling behind. While not everyone would be comfortable with the maximum outsourcing some have described, I think it’s unfair to suggest that moms who do this just shouldn’t have had kids at all. A couple generations ago, affluent moms had live in help and spent very little hands on time with their children. If that’s what makes the moms happy, and if it works for the kids, then who are we to judge?

Anonymous

04/27/2021 16:39 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there's a big difference between having a cleaning lady and a landscaper vs. having a nanny basically be a parent for your kids. There are very few jobs that are really would require that anyway. But kids do resent a lack of time with their parents. My mother had an intense job, and I resented it. So I work but I remain vigilant about how present and engaged I am with my kids. Everybody is having these same struggles and honestly there need to be policy changes if we expect both parents to work.

What type of policy changes do you see being needed so that women can have "intense" jobs?

Yes. Please tell me who to vote for lol

Anonymous

04/27/2021 16:38 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think there's a big difference between having a cleaning lady and a landscaper vs. having a nanny basically be a parent for your kids. There are very few jobs that are really would require that anyway. But kids do resent a lack of time with their parents. My mother had an intense job, and I resented it. So I work but I remain vigilant about how present and engaged I am with my kids. Everybody is having these same struggles and honestly there need to be policy changes if we expect both parents to work.

What type of policy changes do you see being needed so that women can have "intense" jobs?

None. Women - and men too for that matter - need to grow up and make some decisions. The world is not about catering to your every desire for "wanting" a family and an intense career. The two simply cannot co-exist well, at the same time. Sorry for those you who bought into the myth that it can work that way.

Anonymous

04/27/2021 16:35 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Everyone has different wants, needs, and beliefs. You don't value an elite career with high earning potential and that's fine. Other people do and are willing to employ the village to help them. Let them be.

Call it what you want, but the village is pretty much raising the children in such situations.

+1 Ew don't call your hired help "the village." In an actual "village," you wouldn't get to go off doing something else for 8+ hrs a day while other women raise your child for you.

This is just such a weird perspective. Do you think teachers also raise your kids for you? Coaches for after school sports?

Don't you just love sanctimonious moms with small kids? I have older ones and K is 7 hours here, so from 5 to 18 y/o, your kids will spend most of the time with hired women (sometimes men). My boys remember a lot of happy moments and adventures from their young years, and no, they are not resentful because they didn't watch their mom scrub toilets or wait in line with them at Walmart.

Anonymous

04/27/2021 16:33 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:I think there's a big difference between having a cleaning lady and a landscaper vs. having a nanny basically be a parent for your kids. There are very few jobs that are really would require that anyway. But kids do resent a lack of time with their parents. My mother had an intense job, and I resented it. So I work but I remain vigilant about how present and engaged I am with my kids. Everybody is having these same struggles and honestly there need to be policy changes if we expect both parents to work.

What type of policy changes do you see being needed so that women can have "intense" jobs?

Anonymous

04/27/2021 16:31 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's is what the women partners told me before I became a partner: you can't be both. If you want to stay in the practice and succeed, delegate, delegate, delegate, both at home and at work, but mostly at home. You need back up plans for your back up plans. Some had various combinations of the following: live in parents, nannies, au pairs, SAH or flexible spouses, always full child care coverage options (not always needed, but always available) from 7-10 pm, plus weekends; cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep (several had home chefs or full service housekeeping); tutors; sometimes drivers for the kids.

I would have walked out the door right then and there.

When are you delusional women going to realize that you are being asked to "delegate out" the very fabric of your lives?

Well, I wouldn't put it like that, but I had the same reaction. Cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, drop-off/pick-up, working with your kids on schoolwork - aren't all those things just....life? What is it teaching your kids when you pay people to do everything for you? Doing many of these tasks is a huge part of being and growing together and developing as a family. Some of my family's best conversations are during "chore" times, not during yay! fun! time!

I'm teaching them that if they get a good job that allows the extra cash for it that they can make the decision to outsource things that are less of a good use of their time. Honestly, my MIL was a stay-at-home mom who loves taking care of "her boys" and did all that for them and my FIL. You know what "her boys" have learned? That a woman will take care of all that for them. (My husband outgrew it before we met, my BIL and FIL still have not.) I was raised by a working mom, and I was doing laundry and cooking meals by middle school. Guess which one of us didn't dye their clothing pink by not knowing to sort red from whites? It wasn't me.

Household chores are not the "very fabric of [my life]" - god, what a dull existence you must have to think THAT'S what's important. Cleaning is boring, laundry is easy, cooking is my husband's thing, and we share helping with schoolwork, except that they will listen to the math tutor better than either of us. As soon as the pandemic is over, we're hiring a cleaning person with absolutely no apologies or concerns that I'm setting a bad example for my kids. We cook together for fun, they have chores/responsibilities around the house, and they're expected to help when asked. Life requires that you get your stuff done; it does not preclude you from paying others to take on the tasks you're not fulfilled by if you can afford it.

Sweet Jesus, are you condescending. It's not about the chores or the outsourcing, it's about finding beauty in the mundane.

-Working mom of three

Anonymous

04/27/2021 16:29 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

I think there's a big difference between having a cleaning lady and a landscaper vs. having a nanny basically be a parent for your kids. There are very few jobs that are really would require that anyway. But kids do resent a lack of time with their parents. My mother had an intense job, and I resented it. So I work but I remain vigilant about how present and engaged I am with my kids. Everybody is having these same struggles and honestly there need to be policy changes if we expect both parents to work.

Anonymous

04/27/2021 16:24 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

In Europe it’s totally normal to pack up 7th graders and send them off to boarding school. You could do that in a couple years OP. I know couples who send their kids to board at schools 10 minutes from home.

Anonymous

04/27/2021 16:18 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's is what the women partners told me before I became a partner: you can't be both. If you want to stay in the practice and succeed, delegate, delegate, delegate, both at home and at work, but mostly at home. You need back up plans for your back up plans. Some had various combinations of the following: live in parents, nannies, au pairs, SAH or flexible spouses, always full child care coverage options (not always needed, but always available) from 7-10 pm, plus weekends; cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep (several had home chefs or full service housekeeping); tutors; sometimes drivers for the kids.

I would have walked out the door right then and there.

When are you delusional women going to realize that you are being asked to "delegate out" the very fabric of your lives?

Well, I wouldn't put it like that, but I had the same reaction. Cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, drop-off/pick-up, working with your kids on schoolwork - aren't all those things just....life? What is it teaching your kids when you pay people to do everything for you? Doing many of these tasks is a huge part of being and growing together and developing as a family. Some of my family's best conversations are during "chore" times, not during yay! fun! time!

I'm teaching them that if they get a good job that allows the extra cash for it that they can make the decision to outsource things that are less of a good use of their time. Honestly, my MIL was a stay-at-home mom who loves taking care of "her boys" and did all that for them and my FIL. You know what "her boys" have learned? That a woman will take care of all that for them. (My husband outgrew it before we met, my BIL and FIL still have not.) I was raised by a working mom, and I was doing laundry and cooking meals by middle school. Guess which one of us didn't dye their clothing pink by not knowing to sort red from whites? It wasn't me.

Household chores are not the "very fabric of [my life]" - god, what a dull existence you must have to think THAT'S what's important. Cleaning is boring, laundry is easy, cooking is my husband's thing, and we share helping with schoolwork, except that they will listen to the math tutor better than either of us. As soon as the pandemic is over, we're hiring a cleaning person with absolutely no apologies or concerns that I'm setting a bad example for my kids. We cook together for fun, they have chores/responsibilities around the house, and they're expected to help when asked. Life requires that you get your stuff done; it does not preclude you from paying others to take on the tasks you're not fulfilled by if you can afford it.

Exactly. I encourage women to pursue high paying careers and outsource things they don’t want to do, which will ultimately lead to more time with their kids and also professional satisfaction. I thought about SAHM or a lower wage career in social work, buying into the idea that I’d obviously want to be the caretaker of my home as a women (from an evangelical household). I decided to pursue medicine instead and I’m perfectly happy with the balance and the income that allows me to get away from doing household duties I don’t personally want to do. Lots of girls in my Med school class had doctor moms and are so freaking proud of them- enough to pursue the same career.

Anonymous

04/27/2021 15:20 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's is what the women partners told me before I became a partner: you can't be both. If you want to stay in the practice and succeed, delegate, delegate, delegate, both at home and at work, but mostly at home. You need back up plans for your back up plans. Some had various combinations of the following: live in parents, nannies, au pairs, SAH or flexible spouses, always full child care coverage options (not always needed, but always available) from 7-10 pm, plus weekends; cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep (several had home chefs or full service housekeeping); tutors; sometimes drivers for the kids.

I would have walked out the door right then and there.

When are you delusional women going to realize that you are being asked to "delegate out" the very fabric of your lives?

Well, I wouldn't put it like that, but I had the same reaction. Cooking, cleaning, doing laundry, drop-off/pick-up, working with your kids on schoolwork - aren't all those things just....life? What is it teaching your kids when you pay people to do everything for you? Doing many of these tasks is a huge part of being and growing together and developing as a family. Some of my family's best conversations are during "chore" times, not during yay! fun! time!

I'm teaching them that if they get a good job that allows the extra cash for it that they can make the decision to outsource things that are less of a good use of their time. Honestly, my MIL was a stay-at-home mom who loves taking care of "her boys" and did all that for them and my FIL. You know what "her boys" have learned? That a woman will take care of all that for them. (My husband outgrew it before we met, my BIL and FIL still have not.) I was raised by a working mom, and I was doing laundry and cooking meals by middle school. Guess which one of us didn't dye their clothing pink by not knowing to sort red from whites? It wasn't me.

Household chores are not the "very fabric of [my life]" - god, what a dull existence you must have to think THAT'S what's important. Cleaning is boring, laundry is easy, cooking is my husband's thing, and we share helping with schoolwork, except that they will listen to the math tutor better than either of us. As soon as the pandemic is over, we're hiring a cleaning person with absolutely no apologies or concerns that I'm setting a bad example for my kids. We cook together for fun, they have chores/responsibilities around the house, and they're expected to help when asked. Life requires that you get your stuff done; it does not preclude you from paying others to take on the tasks you're not fulfilled by if you can afford it.

Anonymous

04/27/2021 13:49 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's is what the women partners told me before I became a partner: you can't be both. If you want to stay in the practice and succeed, delegate, delegate, delegate, both at home and at work, but mostly at home. You need back up plans for your back up plans. Some had various combinations of the following: live in parents, nannies, au pairs, SAH or flexible spouses, always full child care coverage options (not always needed, but always available) from 7-10 pm, plus weekends; cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep (several had home chefs or full service housekeeping); tutors; sometimes drivers for the kids.

I would have walked out the door right then and there.

When are you delusional women going to realize that you are being asked to "delegate out" the very fabric of your lives?

Truly devastated that "cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep" and lawn service are not the fabric of my life.

What amount of time with your children is the fabric of your life?

Honestly? Only 1-2 hours a day are “fabric” quality and the rest (cleaning, yardwork, grocery store) I would very gladly do without

So you're falling for the myth that there is quality time (with kids) and non-quality time. This is a lie. There is only time. If you find drudgery in chores that make up life, then that is on you. I assure you, young children do not see it that way.

I don't think that's right. There is a big difference between the time spent, for example, cooking where you can (at best) pay nominal attention to the kid and time spent actively playing or reading with the kid.

I don’t agree. It is a valid life decision to have a high intense job and we certainly should not be criticizing women for doing so (especially when men are not given such scrutiny), but 2-3 hours of “quality time” is not the same as being around all of the time but not actively involved.

Why have kids if not going to spend much time with them?

Because they are yet another symbol of success, especially if they get into an Ivy League college or turn out to be successful.

Anonymous

04/27/2021 13:24 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Here's is what the women partners told me before I became a partner: you can't be both. If you want to stay in the practice and succeed, delegate, delegate, delegate, both at home and at work, but mostly at home. You need back up plans for your back up plans. Some had various combinations of the following: live in parents, nannies, au pairs, SAH or flexible spouses, always full child care coverage options (not always needed, but always available) from 7-10 pm, plus weekends; cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep (several had home chefs or full service housekeeping); tutors; sometimes drivers for the kids.

I would have walked out the door right then and there.

When are you delusional women going to realize that you are being asked to "delegate out" the very fabric of your lives?

Truly devastated that "cleaners; laundry service; food delivery, meal prep" and lawn service are not the fabric of my life.

What amount of time with your children is the fabric of your life?

Honestly? Only 1-2 hours a day are “fabric” quality and the rest (cleaning, yardwork, grocery store) I would very gladly do without

So you're falling for the myth that there is quality time (with kids) and non-quality time. This is a lie. There is only time. If you find drudgery in chores that make up life, then that is on you. I assure you, young children do not see it that way.

I don't think that's right. There is a big difference between the time spent, for example, cooking where you can (at best) pay nominal attention to the kid and time spent actively playing or reading with the kid.

I don’t agree. It is a valid life decision to have a high intense job and we certainly should not be criticizing women for doing so (especially when men are not given such scrutiny), but 2-3 hours of “quality time” is not the same as being around all of the time but not actively involved.

Why have kids if not going to spend much time with them?

Because some people want to have kids and a big job.

Anonymous

04/27/2021 13:21 Subject: Big law mom with little kids

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Everyone has different wants, needs, and beliefs. You don't value an elite career with high earning potential and that's fine. Other people do and are willing to employ the village to help them. Let them be.

Call it what you want, but the village is pretty much raising the children in such situations.

+1 Ew don't call your hired help "the village." In an actual "village," you wouldn't get to go off doing something else for 8+ hrs a day while other women raise your child for you.

This is just such a weird perspective. Do you think teachers also raise your kids for you? Coaches for after school sports?

Seriously. Hired help is not a village.

Here is an example of a village: When DH was growing up abroad his mom was working and MIL’s sister’s husband’s relative offered to watch him, free, just because she could. What would we call that lady in the US? A crazy person? A sucker? Anyway hired help is not a village. A village is people who care about you and will help you even if you have nothing to offer in return in that moment. And then you pay it forward.