Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I admit I hadn’t thought much about reparations in the past. The whole concept seemed too complicated and challenging.

BUT this essay by Nikole Hannah Jones has really changed my mind.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/24/magazine/reparations-slavery.html

She does an excellent job detailing the history of racial oppression and injustice and how the only way to truly transform our country and achieve racial justice is to address the root issue - WEALTH. And how white Americans have received government support over the last 150 years that has propelled them to generational wealth while Black Americans have had the opposite experience.

It’s really excellent and I hope everyone can take the time to read it. I know it's long but a very worthwhile read.

Some key points from her essay:

In other words, while black Americans were being systematically, generationally deprived of the ability to build wealth, while also being robbed of the little they had managed to gain, white Americans were not only free to earn money and accumulate wealth with exclusive access to the best jobs, best schools, best credit terms, but they were also getting substantial government help in doing so.

That’s what the Great Society was supposed to do: free housing, Medicaid, TANF, welfare, et al. More money is never going to change anything for the better.

Not much has changed since MLK said this in 1967:
“it didn’t cost the nation anything to integrate lunch counters. It didn’t cost the nation anything to integrate hotels and motels. It didn’t cost the nation a penny to guarantee the right to vote. Now we are in a period where it will cost the nation billions of dollars to get rid of poverty, to get rid of slums, to make quality integrated education a reality. This is where we are now.

Now our struggle is for genuine equality, which means economic equality. For we know that it isn’t enough to integrate lunch counters. What does it profit a man to be able to eat at an integrated lunch counter if he doesn’t have enough money to buy a hamburger?”


As we focus on police violence, we cannot ignore an even starker indication of our societal failures: Racial income disparities today look no different than they did the decade before King’s March on Washington.

No progress has been made over the past 70 years in reducing income and wealth inequalities between black and white households


To summarize, none of the actions we are told black people must take if they want to “lift themselves” out of poverty and gain financial stability — not marrying, not getting educated, not saving more, not owning a home — can mitigate 400 years of racialized plundering. Wealth begets wealth, and white Americans have had centuries of government assistance to accumulate wealth, while the government has for the vast history of this country worked against black Americans doing the same.

“The cause of the gap must be found in the structural characteristics of the American economy, heavily infused at every point with both an inheritance of racism and the ongoing authority of white supremacy,” the authors of the Duke study write. “There are no actions that black Americans can take unilaterally that will have much of an effect on reducing the wealth gap. For the gap to be closed, America must undergo a vast social transformation produced by the adoption of bold national policies.”


Reparations are not about punishing white Americans, and white Americans are not the ones who would pay for them. It does not matter if your ancestors engaged in slavery or if you just immigrated here two weeks ago. Reparations are a societal obligation in a nation where our Constitution sanctioned slavery, Congress passed laws protecting it and our federal government initiated, condoned and practiced legal racial segregation and discrimination against black Americans until half a century ago. And so it is the federal government that pays.


The real obstacle, the obstacle that we have never overcome, is garnering the political will — convincing enough Americans that the centuries-long forced economic disadvantage of black Americans should be remedied, that restitution is owed to people who have never had an equal chance to take advantage of the bounty they played such a significant part in creating.


Each year Congress allocates money — this year $5 million — to help support Holocaust survivors living in America.


Race-neutral policies simply will not address the depth of disadvantage faced by people this country once believed were chattel. Financial restitution cannot end racism, of course, but it can certainly mitigate racism’s most devastating effects. If we do nothing, black Americans may never recover from this pandemic, and they will certainly never know the equality the nation has promised.


If black lives are to truly matter in America, this nation must move beyond slogans and symbolism. Citizens don’t inherit just the glory of their nation, but its wrongs too. A truly great country does not ignore or excuse its sins. It confronts them and then works to make them right. If we are to be redeemed, if we are to live up to the magnificent ideals upon which we were founded, we must do what is just.

It is time for this country to pay its debt. It is time for reparations.

Thoughts? Do you think it's time for the US to pay its debt?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’d happily pay reparations if that would put Al Sharpton and Tiny Coates into retirement. Is that all it would take? I’d easily trade higher taxes to pay for reparations for a few years if the race hustling crowd agree once the debt is paid never to whine again. Deal?

My feeling is that financial compensation will never be enough. We are talking about erasing subconscious discrimination here. I don’t see how else can achieve that other than reverse discrimination for a few hundred years. Maybe law mandates whites to serve blacks for at least 5 years in his/her life time?

Anonymous wrote:I admit I hadn’t thought much about reparations in the past. The whole concept seemed too complicated and challenging.

BUT this essay by Nikole Hannah Jones has really changed my mind.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/06/24/magazine/reparations-slavery.html

She does an excellent job detailing the history of racial oppression and injustice and how the only way to truly transform our country and achieve racial justice is to address the root issue - WEALTH. And how white Americans have received government support over the last 150 years that has propelled them to generational wealth while Black Americans have had the opposite experience.

It’s really excellent and I hope everyone can take the time to read it. I know it's long but a very worthwhile read.

Some key points from her essay:

In other words, while black Americans were being systematically, generationally deprived of the ability to build wealth, while also being robbed of the little they had managed to gain, white Americans were not only free to earn money and accumulate wealth with exclusive access to the best jobs, best schools, best credit terms, but they were also getting substantial government help in doing so.

That’s what the Great Society was supposed to do: free housing, Medicaid, TANF, welfare, et al. More money is never going to change anything for the better.

Not much has changed since MLK said this in 1967:
“it didn’t cost the nation anything to integrate lunch counters. It didn’t cost the nation anything to integrate hotels and motels. It didn’t cost the nation a penny to guarantee the right to vote. Now we are in a period where it will cost the nation billions of dollars to get rid of poverty, to get rid of slums, to make quality integrated education a reality. This is where we are now.

Now our struggle is for genuine equality, which means economic equality. For we know that it isn’t enough to integrate lunch counters. What does it profit a man to be able to eat at an integrated lunch counter if he doesn’t have enough money to buy a hamburger?”


As we focus on police violence, we cannot ignore an even starker indication of our societal failures: Racial income disparities today look no different than they did the decade before King’s March on Washington.

No progress has been made over the past 70 years in reducing income and wealth inequalities between black and white households


To summarize, none of the actions we are told black people must take if they want to “lift themselves” out of poverty and gain financial stability — not marrying, not getting educated, not saving more, not owning a home — can mitigate 400 years of racialized plundering. Wealth begets wealth, and white Americans have had centuries of government assistance to accumulate wealth, while the government has for the vast history of this country worked against black Americans doing the same.

“The cause of the gap must be found in the structural characteristics of the American economy, heavily infused at every point with both an inheritance of racism and the ongoing authority of white supremacy,” the authors of the Duke study write. “There are no actions that black Americans can take unilaterally that will have much of an effect on reducing the wealth gap. For the gap to be closed, America must undergo a vast social transformation produced by the adoption of bold national policies.”


Reparations are not about punishing white Americans, and white Americans are not the ones who would pay for them. It does not matter if your ancestors engaged in slavery or if you just immigrated here two weeks ago. Reparations are a societal obligation in a nation where our Constitution sanctioned slavery, Congress passed laws protecting it and our federal government initiated, condoned and practiced legal racial segregation and discrimination against black Americans until half a century ago. And so it is the federal government that pays.


The real obstacle, the obstacle that we have never overcome, is garnering the political will — convincing enough Americans that the centuries-long forced economic disadvantage of black Americans should be remedied, that restitution is owed to people who have never had an equal chance to take advantage of the bounty they played such a significant part in creating.


Each year Congress allocates money — this year $5 million — to help support Holocaust survivors living in America.


Race-neutral policies simply will not address the depth of disadvantage faced by people this country once believed were chattel. Financial restitution cannot end racism, of course, but it can certainly mitigate racism’s most devastating effects. If we do nothing, black Americans may never recover from this pandemic, and they will certainly never know the equality the nation has promised.


If black lives are to truly matter in America, this nation must move beyond slogans and symbolism. Citizens don’t inherit just the glory of their nation, but its wrongs too. A truly great country does not ignore or excuse its sins. It confronts them and then works to make them right. If we are to be redeemed, if we are to live up to the magnificent ideals upon which we were founded, we must do what is just.

It is time for this country to pay its debt. It is time for reparations.

Thoughts? Do you think it's time for the US to pay its debt?

Anonymous wrote:I’d happily pay reparations if that would put Al Sharpton and Tiny Coates into retirement. Is that all it would take? I’d easily trade higher taxes to pay for reparations for a few years if the race hustling crowd agree once the debt is paid never to whine again. Deal?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

Did you even read the essay? Past and current injustices have current day manifestations.

Small bank accounts are a current problem caused by current and historical issues. The wealth gap today shows exactly what was "lost".

I don't need to read the essay, I've read a lot about this. I am conceptually opposed to the idea of "reparations," in any form. "Current manifestations" are the only thing needing correcting. Past injustices are past. Which is why Oprah is a billionaire and her great grandmother was a slave. What reparations does she actually deserve? On the other hand, if you are poor today for ANY reason, you deserve help. Is that so hard to understand?

Like I said in my OP, this essay really changed my mind. It’s a shame you’re unwilling to take the time to read it so we can discuss.

Past injustices absolutely have current day manifestations. How equal are schools? Property values in black v. white neighborhoods? Why do we have such a huge wealth gap?

We are discussing it. It's a shame you think this author invented the idea. Did you read Ta-Nihisi Coates groundbreaking "The Case for Reparations?"

Of course past injustices have current manifestations. I am simply rejecting the idea that past injustices can justify reparations. This is a philosophical and ethical argument. It is not an historical argument.

I did read that years ago but my perspective on equality has evolved since then. Now, I think that we as a country need to be much more proactive to fix this problem we created. It’s not going to fix itself.

We need to build wealth to fix economic inequalities caused by the US. Reparations could be one way to accomplish that.

I am on board with fixing economic inequalities.

I am not on board with the moral justification of "reparations," and find the idea repugnant. It's a non-starter.

Find a justification rooted in the present. It's not that hard.

Why “repugnant”? Such a strong response.

Anonymous wrote:Reparations will never fix inequity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

Did you even read the essay? Past and current injustices have current day manifestations.

Small bank accounts are a current problem caused by current and historical issues. The wealth gap today shows exactly what was "lost".

I don't need to read the essay, I've read a lot about this. I am conceptually opposed to the idea of "reparations," in any form. "Current manifestations" are the only thing needing correcting. Past injustices are past. Which is why Oprah is a billionaire and her great grandmother was a slave. What reparations does she actually deserve? On the other hand, if you are poor today for ANY reason, you deserve help. Is that so hard to understand?

Like I said in my OP, this essay really changed my mind. It’s a shame you’re unwilling to take the time to read it so we can discuss.

Past injustices absolutely have current day manifestations. How equal are schools? Property values in black v. white neighborhoods? Why do we have such a huge wealth gap?

We are discussing it. It's a shame you think this author invented the idea. Did you read Ta-Nihisi Coates groundbreaking "The Case for Reparations?"

Of course past injustices have current manifestations. I am simply rejecting the idea that past injustices can justify reparations. This is a philosophical and ethical argument. It is not an historical argument.

I did read that years ago but my perspective on equality has evolved since then. Now, I think that we as a country need to be much more proactive to fix this problem we created. It’s not going to fix itself.

We need to build wealth to fix economic inequalities caused by the US. Reparations could be one way to accomplish that.

I am on board with fixing economic inequalities.

I am not on board with the moral justification of "reparations," and find the idea repugnant. It's a non-starter.

Find a justification rooted in the present. It's not that hard.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

Did you even read the essay? Past and current injustices have current day manifestations.

Small bank accounts are a current problem caused by current and historical issues. The wealth gap today shows exactly what was "lost".

I don't need to read the essay, I've read a lot about this. I am conceptually opposed to the idea of "reparations," in any form. "Current manifestations" are the only thing needing correcting. Past injustices are past. Which is why Oprah is a billionaire and her great grandmother was a slave. What reparations does she actually deserve? On the other hand, if you are poor today for ANY reason, you deserve help. Is that so hard to understand?

Like I said in my OP, this essay really changed my mind. It’s a shame you’re unwilling to take the time to read it so we can discuss.

Past injustices absolutely have current day manifestations. How equal are schools? Property values in black v. white neighborhoods? Why do we have such a huge wealth gap?

We are discussing it. It's a shame you think this author invented the idea. Did you read Ta-Nihisi Coates groundbreaking "The Case for Reparations?"

Of course past injustices have current manifestations. I am simply rejecting the idea that past injustices can justify reparations. This is a philosophical and ethical argument. It is not an historical argument.

I did read that years ago but my perspective on equality has evolved since then. Now, I think that we as a country need to be much more proactive to fix this problem we created. It’s not going to fix itself.

We need to build wealth to fix economic inequalities caused by the US. Reparations could be one way to accomplish that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

Did you even read the essay? Past and current injustices have current day manifestations.

Small bank accounts are a current problem caused by current and historical issues. The wealth gap today shows exactly what was "lost".

I don't need to read the essay, I've read a lot about this. I am conceptually opposed to the idea of "reparations," in any form. "Current manifestations" are the only thing needing correcting. Past injustices are past. Which is why Oprah is a billionaire and her great grandmother was a slave. What reparations does she actually deserve? On the other hand, if you are poor today for ANY reason, you deserve help. Is that so hard to understand?

Like I said in my OP, this essay really changed my mind. It’s a shame you’re unwilling to take the time to read it so we can discuss.

Past injustices absolutely have current day manifestations. How equal are schools? Property values in black v. white neighborhoods? Why do we have such a huge wealth gap?

We are discussing it. It's a shame you think this author invented the idea. Did you read Ta-Nihisi Coates groundbreaking "The Case for Reparations?"

Of course past injustices have current manifestations. I am simply rejecting the idea that past injustices can justify reparations. This is a philosophical and ethical argument. It is not an historical argument.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

Did you even read the essay? Past and current injustices have current day manifestations.

Small bank accounts are a current problem caused by current and historical issues. The wealth gap today shows exactly what was "lost".

I don't need to read the essay, I've read a lot about this. I am conceptually opposed to the idea of "reparations," in any form. "Current manifestations" are the only thing needing correcting. Past injustices are past. Which is why Oprah is a billionaire and her great grandmother was a slave. What reparations does she actually deserve? On the other hand, if you are poor today for ANY reason, you deserve help. Is that so hard to understand?

Like I said in my OP, this essay really changed my mind. It’s a shame you’re unwilling to take the time to read it so we can discuss.

Past injustices absolutely have current day manifestations. How equal are schools? Property values in black v. white neighborhoods? Why do we have such a huge wealth gap?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

Did you even read the essay? Past and current injustices have current day manifestations.

Small bank accounts are a current problem caused by current and historical issues. The wealth gap today shows exactly what was "lost".

I don't need to read the essay, I've read a lot about this. I am conceptually opposed to the idea of "reparations," in any form. "Current manifestations" are the only thing needing correcting. Past injustices are past. Which is why Oprah is a billionaire and her great grandmother was a slave. What reparations does she actually deserve? On the other hand, if you are poor today for ANY reason, you deserve help. Is that so hard to understand?

Like I said in my OP, this essay really changed my mind. It’s a shame you’re unwilling to take the time to read it so we can discuss.

Past injustices absolutely have current day manifestations. How equal are schools? Property values in black v. white neighborhoods? Why do we have such a huge wealth gap?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

Did you even read the essay? Past and current injustices have current day manifestations.

Small bank accounts are a current problem caused by current and historical issues. The wealth gap today shows exactly what was "lost".

I don't need to read the essay, I've read a lot about this. I am conceptually opposed to the idea of "reparations," in any form. "Current manifestations" are the only thing needing correcting. Past injustices are past. Which is why Oprah is a billionaire and her great grandmother was a slave. What reparations does she actually deserve? On the other hand, if you are poor today for ANY reason, you deserve help. Is that so hard to understand?

Like I said in my OP, this essay really changed my mind. It’s a shame you’re unwilling to take the time to read it so we can discuss.

Past injustices absolutely have current day manifestations. How equal are schools? Property values in black v. white neighborhoods? Why do we have such a huge wealth gap?

Because of the past 20-30 years. That's all, not longer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm all for paying higher taxes to provide healthcare for all, better schools, and free college for lower-income kids.

I worked in development for 10 years and huge cash transfers aren't the way to go. Teach a man to fish and all that.

How about other forms of reparations?

Do you support the principle but not just handing out cash?

NP here. The principle is abhorrent. My parents and grandparents recieved Holocaust reparations from the German government. That was for their suffering. I would not accept reparations for me. I did not suffer anything close to what they went through.

On the other hand, I do believe society has an obligation to assist people who are poor today. Present conditions that keep them in poverty should be fixed. They are entitled to a decent life and opportunities. Cash is okay, but jobs at living wages is better.

Otherwise, we will be saying Oprah deserves "reparations," but a poor white who grew up in poverty deserves nothing.

What if your parents had never been paid? What if Israel wasn't formed? What if extensive systemic antisemitism was still happening today?

Did you know that the US government still pays (this year $5 million) to support Holocaust survivors living in America? And $3.8B in military aid to Israel in 2019.

Even, some slave owners were compensated:
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/16/opinion/when-slaveowners-got-reparations.html


How much has the US ever paid to survivors of slavery and other forms of black oppression?

My mother's family was compensated. Due to the vagaries of history, my father's family was not. That's how it goes. I would not accept money for him.

Military aid to Israel is not reparations. It's a military alliance. Formation of Israel was perhaps reparations, but that benefited actual refugees, and unfortunately created other refugees who are still suffering.

What about Indians? We took 100 per cent of their land. Do we give it back?

What about Chinese railroad builders? They weren't paid very well and faced years of discrimination. Do they get back compensation for what they should have been paid?

What about women for the last 5,000 years? So many were slaves to their husbands. Do today's men owe women payment for our grandfathers beating our grandmothers?


The point is, history is history. The winners and the losers all end up dead. Their joys and sufferings are over. We can't fix what happened to the dead, not even in theory.

We can however make the world better for those who suffer today. That's what we should be talking about.

Thoughts on how to bridge the wealth gap without reparations?

Focus on systemic racism issues that exist today. It's really that simple. It's disgusting to demand anything called "reparations" for something that happened 400 years ago.

400 years ago? The Civil Rights Act was only passed 56 years ago. At that point, discrimination became illegal, but nothing was done to correct existing injustices and black people still do face discrimination today. Brown v. Board of Education was decided 66 years ago, but our schools remain segregated today. All moving us in the right direction, but the harm of 400 years of slavery and oppression was never corrected and nothing lost was restored.

I agree we should work on systemic racism, but without also addressing the wealth gap we are limited in our ability to transform our country. We can't achieve racial equality until we achieve economic equality.

The harm of 400 years of slavery CANNOT be corrected. That's the point.

I didn't say anything about the wealth gap and I won't until you understand that your small bank account is a CURRENT problem, not an historical one. YOU did not lose anything. Your ancestors did. Nothing can be "restored," to dead people.

We can't resolve current problems by appealing to past injustices.

Did you even read the essay? Past and current injustices have current day manifestations.

Small bank accounts are a current problem caused by current and historical issues. The wealth gap today shows exactly what was "lost".

No it doesn't.

Black people lost a lot of wealth in DC after the riots. That is because of property value changes, not slavery. You're mixing up a lot of historical issues while ignoring recent history.

When have black people and white people had economic equality? Why are there "black neighborhoods"?

And, as discussed in the essay, the economic impacts were caused by US policies way beyond slavery. Slavery was the start, not the end. Let me know after you actually read it...

Chicago got rid of redlining in the 80s. Do you think we should go back to that?

Greatschools is resegregating schools and neighborhoods. That's a real issue that you should focus on, if you want to effect change. Not reparations.

So your solutions to the wealth gap are...reinstating redlining and eliminating Great Schools?

No, I mentioned redlining because you referenced it.

However, we now have legal de facto resegregation occurring. I don't know how to address this. Maybe you have some ideas.