What a dumb system. Whatever happened to hiring the most qualified?

Any updates OP?

"You are tentatively eligible for this series/grade combination based on your self-rating of your qualifications." Then right under it it says "You have not been referred to the hiring manager for position"

Your 'self-rating' qualifies you, but their rating does not qualify you, hence, no referral.

Anonymous wrote:OP, I'm guessing you don't see the irony in your response to the most recent PP?!

Yeah, no. Sorry, I don't see the "irony" in it. Several people have responded to me here in very rude ways and I've responded in kind. Thats how it works. I've had maybe two people, which its hard to tell when everyone shows up as anonymous, who have actually attempted to help or have asked relevant questions. It was a huge mistake even posting here to be honest. I was expecting something else entirely. On a positive note it has motivated me even more to just keep digging on my own and not expect any real help from places like this. I've actually found out quite a bit. Like for instance the regulations for military spouse preference changed in April 2019. Still getting our information together to visit JAG, and still awaiting our FOIA request data. I actually found what the regulation states on that as well so I know exactly the kind of information we are entitled to. Thanks so much for all your help though, your response was a lot of help.

OP, I'm guessing you don't see the irony in your response to the most recent PP?!

Anonymous wrote:So your wife DID NOT provide any documentation of marriage? That could be it right there. You have to document most claims. Just stating them in the application, or assuming HR can (or is even allowed) to infer things is not a best practice

For example, I once applied to an OSD job that I was well qualified for but was not referred. I called the HR POC and was told I was not referred because I did not upload my college and gras school transcript.

Now, HR could have inferred this. I was an active duty Army officer and a reserve officer now, positions that require an undergrad degrees. I also went to a master's granting DOD school. However HR needs to see the underlying documentation.

A few other observations;
1) you are citing from a presidential EO. Those are not the final implementing instructions. You need to look up the DOD instruction to see how the spousal program actually gets implemented. Everyone can be in the same category. But there might be subcategories of preference within it. This happens. See the DOD policy on eligibility and preference for onbase child development centers. The larger policy sets 4 or 5 categories of preference. However the implementing instructions further divides category 1 into 4 separate buckets. So there is category 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, etc. In practice, only category 1a and 1b get a CDC spot, even though they are all cat 1 preference

2). Your attitude in this thread has been extremely unprofessional. Actual HR feds have been trying to help. Yet your displayed attitude is a mix of aggressive, condescending, arrogant, and dismissive. This is not a recipe for success.

Ok, this right here. First off, I cited from the EO one time. The rest of the time I have actually copied and pasted CFR. Now if you have some other source, as you say, a DOD instruction, then why don't you provide those. I've read policy on eligibility and I don't see anything that would block her referral. If you are aware of some DOD instruction as you call it that would provide further information, then provide it. Secondly, you haven't read the entire thread if you think I'm the one being unprofessional. Not that it matters. Your attitude is that of someone who doesn't know the answers I'm looking for, but still felt the need to provide your .02. So thanks for you .02.

So your wife DID NOT provide any documentation of marriage? That could be it right there. You have to document most claims. Just stating them in the application, or assuming HR can (or is even allowed) to infer things is not a best practice

For example, I once applied to an OSD job that I was well qualified for but was not referred. I called the HR POC and was told I was not referred because I did not upload my college and gras school transcript.

Now, HR could have inferred this. I was an active duty Army officer and a reserve officer now, positions that require an undergrad degrees. I also went to a master's granting DOD school. However HR needs to see the underlying documentation.

A few other observations;
1) you are citing from a presidential EO. Those are not the final implementing instructions. You need to look up the DOD instruction to see how the spousal program actually gets implemented. Everyone can be in the same category. But there might be subcategories of preference within it. This happens. See the DOD policy on eligibility and preference for onbase child development centers. The larger policy sets 4 or 5 categories of preference. However the implementing instructions further divides category 1 into 4 separate buckets. So there is category 1a, 1b, 1c, 1d, etc. In practice, only category 1a and 1b get a CDC spot, even though they are all cat 1 preference

2). Your attitude in this thread has been extremely unprofessional. Actual HR feds have been trying to help. Yet your displayed attitude is a mix of aggressive, condescending, arrogant, and dismissive. This is not a recipe for success.

Anonymous wrote:OP: please clarify, two points:
1) Did your wife include the marriage certificate in her application package? (I believe on page 4 of this thread you said she might not have included it.)
2) Is the date of your documentation specifying 100% disability more than 2 years prior to the date her application was submitted? (I asked you this earlier and don’t believe that you answered this specific question.)

If your wife did include the marriage certificate and you are confident all other required supporting documentation was included, I suggest that your wife email a follow-up question to HR’s last response. I recommend keeping it short and simple, with the goal to figure out why she wasn’t identified as eligible for the military spouse preference. Maybe something like:

Thank you for your explanation regarding why I was not referred. I am the spouse of a 100% disabled veteran, and it is unclear to me why my application was not identified for the military spouse preference. To my knowledge, I completed the application specifying the military spouse preference and also provided all supporting documentation for this preference. Will you please explain why I was not found eligible for the military spouse preference? Thank you very much.

HR has all the information that the rest of us do not. It’s now a workday, so I think your best bet is to go back to the source with the direct knowledge. I think you need to get this aspect sorted out first. I wouldn’t muddle your wife’s follow-up with anything else. (Not saying you necessary would, but just want to be very clear here, as some of your responses in this thread have gone on tangents in response to other pistersz)

Great questions and let me respond. My wife says she did not include our marriage certificate, but everything else is included that shows my disability and the fact that she is requesting that preference. In the actual OPM regulation (5 CFR § 315.612 - Noncompetitive appointment of certain military spouses) it states that you have to provide that documentation Prior to appointment. That leads me to believe it can be provided after the initial application.

(e) Proof of eligibility.

(1) Prior to appointment, the spouse of a member of the armed forces as defined in paragraph (b)(4)(i) of this section must submit to the employing agency:

(i) A copy of the service member's active duty orders which authorize a permanent change of station. This authorization must include:

(A) A statement authorizing the service member's spouse to accompany the member to the new permanent duty station;

(B) The specific location to which the member of the armed forces is to be assigned, reassigned, or transferred pursuant to permanent change of station orders; and

(C) The effective date of the permanent change of station; and

(ii) Documentation verifying marriage to the member of the armed forces (i.e., a marriage license or other legal documentation verifying marriage).

As for the 2 years, that only applies to military spouses in regards to their PCS orders. Here is the language used in the regulation

(d) Conditions.

(1) In accordance with the provisions of this section, spouses are eligible for noncompetitive appointment:

(i) For a maximum of 2 years from the date of the service member's permanent change of station orders;

(ii) From the date of documentation verifying the member of the armed forces is 100 percent disabled; or

(iii) From the date of documentation verifying the member of the armed forces was killed while on active duty.

Notice how the 2 years part isn't included in the (1) section, it is only associated with PCS orders. For spouses of disabled veterans its simply based on the date of their application and the date of the documentation verifying 100 percent disability.

My last point, and I hope you are in HR so you can help me to get a calculated answer for this is, where does it say that military spouses with this preference block other applications? Lets just say they hold it against her that her marriage certificate wasn't in the application, so at that point our only argument becomes confirming the rule that says spouses with this preference block others. I couldn't find any references in the CFR about this, but OPMs website seems to answer it. I've also posted this before, maybe its when I was attempting to answer your question before.
This is the link https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/hiring-information/veterans-authorities/#url=Appointment-of-Military-Spouses

Do military spouses have a hiring preference under these provisions? View less
No. Military spouses eligible under this authority do not have a hiring preference by virtue of their eligibility under these provisions. This appointing authority merely provides for non-competitive entry into the competitive service. It does not constitute, establish, or convey a hiring preference.

Do eligible spouses have selection priority under these provisions? View less
No. Eligible spouses do not have a selection priority over other qualified applicants under these provisions. This appointing authority allows for eligible individuals to be considered and selected for Federal jobs; however it does not convey selection priority to eligible spouses.\
This authority is an additional non-competitive hiring tool which agencies may use to select qualified, eligible individuals. Agencies are not required to use this hiring authority, nor does it take precedence over the use of other appointment mechanisms.

If a military spouse, who is a preference eligible, is competing against an eligible spouse who is not a preference eligible, must agencies apply veterans' preference and pass-over procedures when making a selection under this authority? View less
No. Because this authority is a non-competitive hiring mechanism and veterans' preference does not apply to positions advertised via merit promotion or internal placement. The agency can select any qualified eligible spouse. Veterans' preference is not a consideration when filling positions under this authority.

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I’m confused. I provided a link to a program for which you have to be enrolled. It doesn’t sound like your wife is currently a part of the program AND applied to the posting. It literally says on that fact sheet that best qualified spouses in this program who apply for competitive positions BLOCK other applicants from being referred.

Not OP here.

OP has answered this in almost every post he's made, to the point of tedium. The Executive Order he keeps referencing places spouses of those granted 100% military disability in exactly that category. That point has consumed about 5 pages of discussion -- please go back and read it.

But it doesn’t matter that she’s eligible if she’s not a part of this program [but she is] and thus considered a preferential candidate under the MSPP (Schedule S). I apologize as I’m not familiar with it specifically, but it’s pretty clear in that fact sheet AND the wording of the FOIA response to OP what happened.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:[
I’m confused. I provided a link to a program for which you have to be enrolled. It doesn’t sound like your wife is currently a part of the program AND applied to the posting. It literally says on that fact sheet that best qualified spouses in this program who apply for competitive positions BLOCK other applicants from being referred.

Not OP here.

OP has answered this in almost every post he's made, to the point of tedium. The Executive Order he keeps referencing places spouses of those granted 100% military disability in exactly that category. That point has consumed about 5 pages of discussion -- please go back and read it.

Please, please, please go back and read the discussion. I can understand OP's frustration. He's pretty sure HR is as clueless about that EO as you are.

Thank you, finally someone confirms I'm not speaking a foreign language about this. I really am only concerned with speaking to HR reps who are involved in reviewing candidates resumes who apply for federal jobs. So for those of you out there that don't meet that qualification, I thank you for your interest and contribution, but at this time you are not being considered for this position.

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t think my agency would go back and reconsider an incomplete or incorrect application but I would imagine that is at each agency’s discretion. However once they start doing it for one person they have to reconsider people all the time and then you’re back at square one. You said your wife works in HR, she doesn’t know anyone in the staffing office that she can call and ask questions if she’s confused?

Sorry for the multiple responses too, I just keep rereading what you said and think I need to clarify. Her application was in no way incorrect or incomplete. She would have been referred if they would have included her into the military spouse category. They just aren't including her into the category when she does in fact belong in that category. Its a little different to say someone filled out the application the wrong way or left it incomplete. In that case I totally agree. Furthermore, I just need to know if one category trumps another category as far as the referral process. Whether or not she clicked the right block for her category is irrelevant if we just know that.

I know that you don’t believe in this case that her application was incorrect and that’s fine. In my office, if HR made an error in processing the application then they would and have corrected that error by adding someone to a cert or referring them.

Also you keep using the term “hiring authority” but a hiring authority is the law or reg that allows someone to be appointed to a position. The selecting official is the person who decides which applicant they want to choose. Just a point of clarification. HR looks at the applications before the selecting official to determine if they’re complete, apply OPM’s qualifications, rank applicants in accordance with Delegated Examining or merit promotion policies, adjudicate preference, and so on. The selecting official cannot be expected to do all of that on their own.

I think when I say hiring authority I was confusing it with the terminology used by HR which is hiring official, if that makes more sense. Are you saying that if HR makes a mistake they can correct the error by referring them after the fact? Thats one thing I want to know. I think more importantly I want to know if military spouse preference actually does block any other applicants from being referred, because everything I've read so far on OPM's site says the exact opposite.

Yes I am saying that if HR made an error in processing the application it can be remedied. I don’t know enough about this job posting or hiring authority to say whether or not a military spouse can “block” anyone else. I have a feeling that what they’re doing is above board but they’re not explaining it well. I would recommend calmly and politely talking to a supervisor and asking them to explain what’s going on.

Thats the plan. They keep closing the case though after their brief explanations that only bring more questions. These are her words that I have a problem with "For this vacancy announcement, multiple qualified Priority Program Preference for Military Spouses were referred to the hiring official. By law, qualified Priority Program Preference for Military Spouses block all new appointments to the Federal government, which this would have been a new appointment for you." My problem is finding the rules about this "law". Yet to find it. So again, even though my wife does fit into the same category as the military spouse preference applications, they are coming up with this law that they are saying prevents her from even being referred.

I Google searched this for you in 2 seconds: https://www.dcpas.osd.mil/Content/Documents/PPP-Program%20S.pdf. What they’re doing is completely legal according to the rules of this program. I know you are mad someone successfully outgamed you and your wife using a preference technicality, but it is what it is. Imagine how it feels to be those of us who are long-term contractors and literally cannot get referred because of various preference and special hiring authorities. You know your wife *can* be referred, so suck it up, move on, and keep it trying.

Now it makes more sense. You are some dope contractor that thinks everyone owes you something. I got news for you, you won't find any prior military that feels one bit sorry for you since you are the ones doing the same jobs we do for 5X the salary. You likely make more money as a contractor than my wife would make as a GS employee, but we are supposed to feel sorry for you because our preference we get for serving in the military. Oh and sorry, but your 2 second google search didn't tell me anything I didn't already know and have been explaining here over and over. The program you are referring to does not, I repeat DOES NOT give preference over other categories. Not only that but the same program entitles spouses of 100 percent disabled veterans to be placed in the exact same category. I've already explained this. You clearly arent here to provide any expert advice. So please, just move on, and congrats on your huge salary and contract. Look up Executive Order 13473

So someone is "doing the same jobs we do for 5X the salary," but HE'S/SHE'S the dope. Ok.

So why cry about veterans getting preference for GS positions? So yeah, if you are making 5x the salary of a soldier doing the same job and are still crying that they get preference in GS jobs, you are a DOPE.

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Anonymous wrote:I don’t think my agency would go back and reconsider an incomplete or incorrect application but I would imagine that is at each agency’s discretion. However once they start doing it for one person they have to reconsider people all the time and then you’re back at square one. You said your wife works in HR, she doesn’t know anyone in the staffing office that she can call and ask questions if she’s confused?

Sorry for the multiple responses too, I just keep rereading what you said and think I need to clarify. Her application was in no way incorrect or incomplete. She would have been referred if they would have included her into the military spouse category. They just aren't including her into the category when she does in fact belong in that category. Its a little different to say someone filled out the application the wrong way or left it incomplete. In that case I totally agree. Furthermore, I just need to know if one category trumps another category as far as the referral process. Whether or not she clicked the right block for her category is irrelevant if we just know that.

I know that you don’t believe in this case that her application was incorrect and that’s fine. In my office, if HR made an error in processing the application then they would and have corrected that error by adding someone to a cert or referring them.

Also you keep using the term “hiring authority” but a hiring authority is the law or reg that allows someone to be appointed to a position. The selecting official is the person who decides which applicant they want to choose. Just a point of clarification. HR looks at the applications before the selecting official to determine if they’re complete, apply OPM’s qualifications, rank applicants in accordance with Delegated Examining or merit promotion policies, adjudicate preference, and so on. The selecting official cannot be expected to do all of that on their own.

I think when I say hiring authority I was confusing it with the terminology used by HR which is hiring official, if that makes more sense. Are you saying that if HR makes a mistake they can correct the error by referring them after the fact? Thats one thing I want to know. I think more importantly I want to know if military spouse preference actually does block any other applicants from being referred, because everything I've read so far on OPM's site says the exact opposite.

Yes I am saying that if HR made an error in processing the application it can be remedied. I don’t know enough about this job posting or hiring authority to say whether or not a military spouse can “block” anyone else. I have a feeling that what they’re doing is above board but they’re not explaining it well. I would recommend calmly and politely talking to a supervisor and asking them to explain what’s going on.

Thats the plan. They keep closing the case though after their brief explanations that only bring more questions. These are her words that I have a problem with "For this vacancy announcement, multiple qualified Priority Program Preference for Military Spouses were referred to the hiring official. By law, qualified Priority Program Preference for Military Spouses block all new appointments to the Federal government, which this would have been a new appointment for you." My problem is finding the rules about this "law". Yet to find it. So again, even though my wife does fit into the same category as the military spouse preference applications, they are coming up with this law that they are saying prevents her from even being referred.

I Google searched this for you in 2 seconds: https://www.dcpas.osd.mil/Content/Documents/PPP-Program%20S.pdf. What they’re doing is completely legal according to the rules of this program. I know you are mad someone successfully outgamed you and your wife using a preference technicality, but it is what it is. Imagine how it feels to be those of us who are long-term contractors and literally cannot get referred because of various preference and special hiring authorities. You know your wife *can* be referred, so suck it up, move on, and keep it trying.

Now it makes more sense. You are some dope contractor that thinks everyone owes you something. I got news for you, you won't find any prior military that feels one bit sorry for you since you are the ones doing the same jobs we do for 5X the salary. You likely make more money as a contractor than my wife would make as a GS employee, but we are supposed to feel sorry for you because our preference we get for serving in the military. Oh and sorry, but your 2 second google search didn't tell me anything I didn't already know and have been explaining here over and over. The program you are referring to does not, I repeat DOES NOT give preference over other categories. Not only that but the same program entitles spouses of 100 percent disabled veterans to be placed in the exact same category. I've already explained this. You clearly arent here to provide any expert advice. So please, just move on, and congrats on your huge salary and contract. Look up Executive Order 13473

FYI I’m the other poster in this conversation and I did not post the reply with the google search and link. So most of the time you were not talking with a contractor, but a federal HR specialist.

In that case I wasn't responding to you, I was responding to the gentleman who declared himself a long time federal contractor who was angry that veterans got preference points when applying for federal jobs.

Anonymous wrote:OP, is there anything anyone can post that you won't disagree with? You were so set on disagreeing that you even automatically disagreed with a post that explicitly agreed with you.

I am not sure what anyone can say to help you at this point.

This isn't about opinions. That isn't how the government operates. I haven't disagreed with anyone offering actual documents to back up what they are saying. If I do I have my own argument. Im not really looking for peoples opinions of what something MIGHT mean. Im looking for hard data. So thanks again for not contributing anything.

OP: please clarify, two points:
1) Did your wife include the marriage certificate in her application package? (I believe on page 4 of this thread you said she might not have included it.)
2) Is the date of your documentation specifying 100% disability more than 2 years prior to the date her application was submitted? (I asked you this earlier and don’t believe that you answered this specific question.)

If your wife did include the marriage certificate and you are confident all other required supporting documentation was included, I suggest that your wife email a follow-up question to HR’s last response. I recommend keeping it short and simple, with the goal to figure out why she wasn’t identified as eligible for the military spouse preference. Maybe something like:

Thank you for your explanation regarding why I was not referred. I am the spouse of a 100% disabled veteran, and it is unclear to me why my application was not identified for the military spouse preference. To my knowledge, I completed the application specifying the military spouse preference and also provided all supporting documentation for this preference. Will you please explain why I was not found eligible for the military spouse preference? Thank you very much.

HR has all the information that the rest of us do not. It’s now a workday, so I think your best bet is to go back to the source with the direct knowledge. I think you need to get this aspect sorted out first. I wouldn’t muddle your wife’s follow-up with anything else. (Not saying you necessary would, but just want to be very clear here, as some of your responses in this thread have gone on tangents in response to other pistersz)

Let me try again:

OP's wife does qualify in exactly the program you says she doesn't. She is applying under that program. That program includes her. Her application is put in with her eligibility documentation for that program. The EO grants an exception to that program which includes her.