Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wasn't born in this country and I am uncomfortable about the idea of my kids doing it

This is why many of us are frustrated. You want to come here and benefit from the economy and from the protection of your rights, but don't feel "allegiance"? This is a civic ritual, and if it "brainwashes" kids into valuing "liberty and justice for all", I'm good.

Superficial.

I was an immigrant kid who went to K-12 in Montgomery County public schools where the pledge was said every day during morning announcements.

It had zero effect of brainwashing me or instilling patriotism in any way. It actually probably resulted in the opposite. At some point in high school I chose to stand but stop saying it and I took over 30 years to become a citizen specifically because I didn't feel patriotism toward this country.

Everything else I learned in school about critical thinking and free will and so forth clearly was more effective than any Pledge of Allegiance brainwashing. Raise your kids to be independent thinkers and the Pledge will be nothing but a blip in their day. The fact that it was so ritualistic made it meaningless, kind of like brushing your teeth every morning.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Florida schools still do it in K-5. Private and public, we had kids in both, then moved here.

I think that history books have been pretty scrubbed since my school days plus lots of revisionalism going on plus what kids read in the mass media.

Knowing the pledge - or any U.S. history as is - is going the way of the dinosaurs. Plus many who live here were not born/raised here and don't care about baseball, March madness, hot dogs, U.S. history, etc.

All the better to keep the pledge then. Maybe some of it will sink in. It’s short and sweet with positive values that otherwise may not get taught.

Um. Well, it is short - though it used to be shorter. Maybe we should go back to that version? Would you be ok with that?

Maybe we should also go back to holding an outstretched arm out toward the flag, instead of putting our hands over our hearts?

Anonymous wrote:Florida schools still do it in K-5. Private and public, we had kids in both, then moved here.

I think that history books have been pretty scrubbed since my school days plus lots of revisionalism going on plus what kids read in the mass media.

Knowing the pledge - or any U.S. history as is - is going the way of the dinosaurs. Plus many who live here were not born/raised here and don't care about baseball, March madness, hot dogs, U.S. history, etc.

All the better to keep the pledge then. Maybe some of it will sink in. It’s short and sweet with positive values that otherwise may not get taught.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wasn't born in this country and I am uncomfortable about the idea of my kids doing it

Are you a US citizen? Are your children?

Foreigner here. Eh, it's alright. Consider it an interesting cultural aspect of the USA.

Anonymous wrote:Florida schools still do it in K-5. Private and public, we had kids in both, then moved here.

I think that history books have been pretty scrubbed since my school days plus lots of revisionalism going on plus what kids read in the mass media.

Knowing the pledge - or any U.S. history as is - is going the way of the dinosaurs. Plus many who live here were not born/raised here and don't care about baseball, March madness, hot dogs, U.S. history, etc.

What a way to define American cultural identity.

Florida schools still do it in K-5. Private and public, we had kids in both, then moved here.

I think that history books have been pretty scrubbed since my school days plus lots of revisionalism going on plus what kids read in the mass media.

Knowing the pledge - or any U.S. history as is - is going the way of the dinosaurs. Plus many who live here were not born/raised here and don't care about baseball, March madness, hot dogs, U.S. history, etc.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Again, no one is required to stand if they don't want to. THe flaw is that those who don't want to participate in it don't want to "feel" left out hence the system has to turn around to cater to their feelings. Don't do it if you don't want to and stand by that decision with confidence. Really, no one cares if you're standing or not.

Currently, the system is catering to your feelings that this is a worthwhile group activity for schools to do.

One can equally well say - The flaw is that those who want to say the pledge don't want to "stand out" hence the system has to turn around to cater to their feelings. Do it if you want to and stand by that decision with confidence. Really, no one cares if you're standing or not.

That's not true. Many teachers do require it even though they are not supposed to (including one on this thread). There was a case in Florida a few months ago where a substitute teacher required a boy to stand and the boy was subsequently arrested. As far as I know the teacher faced no repercussions. Students are taught to listen to their teachers and authority figures. They aren't taught that they should listen in school except for this one time at the beginning of the day. If no one cared one way or the other it wouldn't be a big deal, but that's not how it is in actuality.

Anonymous wrote:
Again, no one is required to stand if they don't want to. THe flaw is that those who don't want to participate in it don't want to "feel" left out hence the system has to turn around to cater to their feelings. Don't do it if you don't want to and stand by that decision with confidence. Really, no one cares if you're standing or not.

Currently, the system is catering to your feelings that this is a worthwhile group activity for schools to do.

One can equally well say - The flaw is that those who want to say the pledge don't want to "stand out" hence the system has to turn around to cater to their feelings. Do it if you want to and stand by that decision with confidence. Really, no one cares if you're standing or not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My family traces their roots in the US back to the 1700s (unruly Scots Irish indentured servants) and have fought in every US war (+ Vietnam) since the Revolutionary War. I don't say the pledge. I tell my child that it is her decision of conscience and make sure she knows that according to the Supreme Court she cannot be forced to participate or punished for not participating. I think the words of the Pledge are false and the ritual of pledging is not in keeping with the principles upon which this country was founded. Why should a recent immigrant be held to a higher standard? A key part being a US citizen is the right to express disagreement with our government.

I can trace my roots back to 1947 when my family came over from Europe. My dad was in WW2 (as a new US citizen). They would disagree with you. Jingoism aside, some form of dedication to one's country is important in ensuring there's progress.

What flaws can you find in that one sentence? one nation? indivisible? with liberty and justice for all? Or has identify politics spoiled the sentiment behind the pledge?

No real flaws in the sentence, just nothing solid, that's it.

The real flaws are the practice of asking people to repeatedly say the samething, and creating an environment so that no doing so could be looked down at.

Again, no one is required to stand if they don't want to. THe flaw is that those who don't want to participate in it don't want to "feel" left out hence the system has to turn around to cater to their feelings. Don't do it if you don't want to and stand by that decision with confidence. Really, no one cares if you're standing or not.

Come on, these are kids, not adults. You expect them all to have the courage to act against the will of the school?
Why don't the school does it this way: a 5 minute reading period for students. Anyone wants to practice the pledge are free to stand up (or keep sitting if they prefer ) and do so. That I have no problem with at all.
Would you have a problem with that? This way no one is forbidding the students from doing the pledge (actually the school is reminding them about it as a courtesy.

PP here. Yes, I'd be cool with that.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My family traces their roots in the US back to the 1700s (unruly Scots Irish indentured servants) and have fought in every US war (+ Vietnam) since the Revolutionary War. I don't say the pledge. I tell my child that it is her decision of conscience and make sure she knows that according to the Supreme Court she cannot be forced to participate or punished for not participating. I think the words of the Pledge are false and the ritual of pledging is not in keeping with the principles upon which this country was founded. Why should a recent immigrant be held to a higher standard? A key part being a US citizen is the right to express disagreement with our government.

I can trace my roots back to 1947 when my family came over from Europe. My dad was in WW2 (as a new US citizen). They would disagree with you. Jingoism aside, some form of dedication to one's country is important in ensuring there's progress.

What flaws can you find in that one sentence? one nation? indivisible? with liberty and justice for all? Or has identify politics spoiled the sentiment behind the pledge?

No real flaws in the sentence, just nothing solid, that's it.

The real flaws are the practice of asking people to repeatedly say the samething, and creating an environment so that no doing so could be looked down at.

Again, no one is required to stand if they don't want to. THe flaw is that those who don't want to participate in it don't want to "feel" left out hence the system has to turn around to cater to their feelings. Don't do it if you don't want to and stand by that decision with confidence. Really, no one cares if you're standing or not.

Come on, these are kids, not adults. You expect them all to have the courage to act against the will of the school?
Why don't the school does it this way: a 5 minute reading period for students. Anyone wants to practice the pledge are free to stand up (or keep sitting if they prefer ) and do so. That I have no problem with at all.
Would you have a problem with that? This way no one is forbidding the students from doing the pledge (actually the school is reminding them about it as a courtesy.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
My family traces their roots in the US back to the 1700s (unruly Scots Irish indentured servants) and have fought in every US war (+ Vietnam) since the Revolutionary War. I don't say the pledge. I tell my child that it is her decision of conscience and make sure she knows that according to the Supreme Court she cannot be forced to participate or punished for not participating. I think the words of the Pledge are false and the ritual of pledging is not in keeping with the principles upon which this country was founded. Why should a recent immigrant be held to a higher standard? A key part being a US citizen is the right to express disagreement with our government.

I can trace my roots back to 1947 when my family came over from Europe. My dad was in WW2 (as a new US citizen). They would disagree with you. Jingoism aside, some form of dedication to one's country is important in ensuring there's progress.

What flaws can you find in that one sentence? one nation? indivisible? with liberty and justice for all? Or has identify politics spoiled the sentiment behind the pledge?

No real flaws in the sentence, just nothing solid, that's it.

The real flaws are the practice of asking people to repeatedly say the samething, and creating an environment so that no doing so could be looked down at.

Again, no one is required to stand if they don't want to. THe flaw is that those who don't want to participate in it don't want to "feel" left out hence the system has to turn around to cater to their feelings. Don't do it if you don't want to and stand by that decision with confidence. Really, no one cares if you're standing or not.

Anonymous wrote:

The real flaws are the practice of asking people to repeatedly say the samething, and creating an environment so that no doing so could be looked down at.

Exactly

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We say it every morning in the NoVa public school where I work. We expect kids to stand and show respect but do not insist anyone say it. I personally do not say "under God" because I don't believe that.

No, you are not allowed to require them to stand.

If they were not standing due to some sort of belief or statement I would agree with you but they are not standing because they don't feel like it or are reading a book so I see nothing wrong with asking them to please stand. I'm talking mid elementary school.

You might not see anything wrong with it, but seriously, don't do it. Because another thing you're not allowed to do is judge whether their reasons for not standing are adequate.

+1

No one has to stand for the Pledge of Allegiance. If they want to read a book instead, that is their right, even if they are in elementary school. Perhaps you might want to use this as a way of teaching your class about Supreme Court rulings.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Few PPs above said it. Why do you feel like schools should stop reciting it because you and a few others don't agree with it? Why isn't it ok to just not recite it if you don't want to? Why should the rest of us stop?

Let's turn it around. Why isn't it ok to just recite it if you want to? Is this something you can't do unless it's an official school thing with lots of people around you doing it too?

Because it instills a sense of patriotism among students and it's been an American tradition over 100 yrs. What's wrong with that? Is it causing harm? Now tell me why kids who don't want to say the pledge can't just refrain from doing so?

Well, it's supposed to instill a sense of patriotism among students. But does it? And if so, what kind?

As for tradition - some traditions are good, some traditions are not. "We've always done it this way" is not, by itself, a good reason for continuing to do things that way. What's more, there are plenty of schools where it has NOT been a tradition.

Yes it does instill patriotism whether you agree or not.
By the way, are you going to actually give an answer to the questuon- why can't people who disagree with reciting it, just refrain from it?

Because it requires extra effort to refuse doing something when the "default" is to do it.

If the practice is changed to: anyone who wants to do it, can go to the gym/cafeteria/(some other school designated area) to do it, I would think that is much better.