Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My Mother’s (85) ancestry is Syrian-Lebanese and Turkish…but so many generations ago that this distinction has been largely forgotten (first generation changed the family surname) in the interest of integrating, gaining employment and not facing discrimination.

It was very important to my ancestors to “pass” and census records have them recorded as White. Therefore, White we are and pretty much always have been.

My family, like so many, need to have an “I can explain” or asterisk next to the box or at least a few lines where we can include an interesting narrative!

And that is why many Middle Easterners are reluctant to being called "white." If being white was as simple as just being literally white, then Middle Easterners would be fine with being called "white." However, being "white" also has cultural and social implications that do not capture Middle Easterners well. Being white is associated with having privilege, and imagine telling some Afghan Pashtun or Iraqi kid that they're privileged even though the US invaded and bombed their countries on the grounds that they're "other."

Further, Middle Easterners are proud of their culture, and people who change their names and lose their language, etc are seen as whitewashed. Among Middle Easterners, this is very popular along Lebanese and Syrian Christians/Jews, some of whom won't even call themselves "Arab." I think that Iranian-Americans are a good example of a what well assimilated Middle Eastern population that still keeps in touch with their culture looks like. Iranians in America are very secular, educated, and integrated on average, and yet they also don't change their names to western names, most parents enroll their kids in Farsi classes, and they are all very knowledgeable about their history and culture. I've even met many half Iranians who can speak, read, and write Farsi and have Persian names.

Not only that, but we are seriously lacking important data on Middle Eastern populations in the United States because of how they're classified. We don't have any statistics on them in schools, politics, healthcare, etc, so if there are any disparities they face, there is no way we would know. Walt Whitman HS in MoCo has a ton of Iranian and Afghan students, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if Middle Eastern students are at least 5-10% of the school's "white" population, but we don't have any stats on their academic performance, barriers they may face, etc

As Russia did to Ukraine

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Depends on their religion. If Muslim, no. If Christian, yes (unless Palestinian). If Jewish, yes except by white supremacists.

-Christian Middle Easterner who is always read as white

If they are Western looking, perhaps. If they have Mediterranean looks and olive skin, they will be blamed for wanting to be “ white” by most traditional looking Americans whether white or black.

Funny, because nobody tells brown looking Italians that they want to be white.

And people tell brown South Asians that are obviously and proudly brown that they are white-adjacent. Yet here, white people want to be labelled as brown.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Depends on their religion. If Muslim, no. If Christian, yes (unless Palestinian). If Jewish, yes except by white supremacists.

-Christian Middle Easterner who is always read as white

If they are Western looking, perhaps. If they have Mediterranean looks and olive skin, they will be blamed for wanting to be “ white” by most traditional looking Americans whether white or black.

Funny, because nobody tells brown looking Italians that they want to be white.

This just shows how shaky the foundation for "race" actually is.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t consider Italians as white

I don’t think Italians are one race.

Italians are the white Europeans.

Europe is a place not a race. Southern Italians and Siclians genetically cluster closer to Levantine Arabs and other West Asians than they do to all Europeans besides Greeks and southern balkanites. They're just as close to Lebanese and Syrian people genetically as they are to Northern Italians.

Asia is a place not a race?

Africa is a place not a race?

Should everyone get to put down their 23 and me statistics?

You're just proving my point about how ignoring western notions of race are. Of course Africa is a place and not a race. Are Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans, Nigerians, Ghanians, etc all the same race?

It's very obvious that Mediterraneans--regardless of whether they're from Africa, "Europe," or "Asia" all share a great degree of looks, ancestry, culture, architecture, food, and history. It doesn't take a 23andme test or rocket science to realize this. All it takes is visiting countries in the Mediterranean. Are you implying that Italians and Greeks are more similar to Finnish people and Swedes than to Lebanese people and Tunisians?

Europe is a fake continent that "westerners" drew in Eurasia to divide the Muslims and other "eastern" cultures from "western" cultures. It had no significant meaning historically, culturally, ancestrally, etc until Europeans forged relations with each other more recently via the EU.

I didn't say that the race categories made sense. However advocating for just a MENA category to be another addition to it just adds to the nonsense.

That's just adding another place.

Middle Easterners face a lot of unique social challenges that white Americans with ancestry from Europe do not face. If there is a way to capture those experiences while classifying them as "white, then sure. However, leaving them classified as "white" and doing nothing to help capture their experiences is plain terrible.

Anonymous wrote:My Mother’s (85) ancestry is Syrian-Lebanese and Turkish…but so many generations ago that this distinction has been largely forgotten (first generation changed the family surname) in the interest of integrating, gaining employment and not facing discrimination.

It was very important to my ancestors to “pass” and census records have them recorded as White. Therefore, White we are and pretty much always have been.

My family, like so many, need to have an “I can explain” or asterisk next to the box or at least a few lines where we can include an interesting narrative!

And that is why many Middle Easterners are reluctant to being called "white." If being white was as simple as just being literally white, then Middle Easterners would be fine with being called "white." However, being "white" also has cultural and social implications that do not capture Middle Easterners well. Being white is associated with having privilege, and imagine telling some Afghan Pashtun or Iraqi kid that they're privileged even though the US invaded and bombed their countries on the grounds that they're "other."

Further, Middle Easterners are proud of their culture, and people who change their names and lose their language, etc are seen as whitewashed. Among Middle Easterners, this is very popular along Lebanese and Syrian Christians/Jews, some of whom won't even call themselves "Arab." I think that Iranian-Americans are a good example of a what well assimilated Middle Eastern population that still keeps in touch with their culture looks like. Iranians in America are very secular, educated, and integrated on average, and yet they also don't change their names to western names, most parents enroll their kids in Farsi classes, and they are all very knowledgeable about their history and culture. I've even met many half Iranians who can speak, read, and write Farsi and have Persian names.

Not only that, but we are seriously lacking important data on Middle Eastern populations in the United States because of how they're classified. We don't have any statistics on them in schools, politics, healthcare, etc, so if there are any disparities they face, there is no way we would know. Walt Whitman HS in MoCo has a ton of Iranian and Afghan students, to the point where I wouldn't be surprised if Middle Eastern students are at least 5-10% of the school's "white" population, but we don't have any stats on their academic performance, barriers they may face, etc

Anonymous wrote:Depends on their religion. If Muslim, no. If Christian, yes (unless Palestinian). If Jewish, yes except by white supremacists.

-Christian Middle Easterner who is always read as white

If they are Western looking, perhaps. If they have Mediterranean looks and olive skin, they will be blamed for wanting to be “ white” by most traditional looking Americans whether white or black.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t consider Italians as white

I don’t think Italians are one race.

Italians are the white Europeans.

Europe is a place not a race. Southern Italians and Siclians genetically cluster closer to Levantine Arabs and other West Asians than they do to all Europeans besides Greeks and southern balkanites. They're just as close to Lebanese and Syrian people genetically as they are to Northern Italians.

Asia is a place not a race?

Africa is a place not a race?

Should everyone get to put down their 23 and me statistics?

You're just proving my point about how ignoring western notions of race are. Of course Africa is a place and not a race. Are Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans, Nigerians, Ghanians, etc all the same race?

It's very obvious that Mediterraneans--regardless of whether they're from Africa, "Europe," or "Asia" all share a great degree of looks, ancestry, culture, architecture, food, and history. It doesn't take a 23andme test or rocket science to realize this. All it takes is visiting countries in the Mediterranean. Are you implying that Italians and Greeks are more similar to Finnish people and Swedes than to Lebanese people and Tunisians?

Europe is a fake continent that "westerners" drew in Eurasia to divide the Muslims and other "eastern" cultures from "western" cultures. It had no significant meaning historically, culturally, ancestrally, etc until Europeans forged relations with each other more recently via the EU.

I didn't say that the race categories made sense. However advocating for just a MENA category to be another addition to it just adds to the nonsense.

That's just adding another place.

PP and our family’s Irish surname was changed slightly to a similar, supposedly “Protestant” version of the name so that male immigrants to the US could obtain immediate employment rather than face, “No Irish (Catholics) need Apply” in the factories and railroad.

Anonymous wrote:My Mother’s (85) ancestry is Syrian-Lebanese and Turkish…but so many generations ago that this distinction has been largely forgotten (first generation changed the family surname) in the interest of integrating, gaining employment and not facing discrimination.

It was very important to my ancestors to “pass” and census records have them recorded as White. Therefore, White we are and pretty much always have been.

My family, like so many, need to have an “I can explain” or asterisk next to the box or at least a few lines where we can include an interesting narrative!

And they reaped the benefits of being white.

My Mother’s (85) ancestry is Syrian-Lebanese and Turkish…but so many generations ago that this distinction has been largely forgotten (first generation changed the family surname) in the interest of integrating, gaining employment and not facing discrimination.

It was very important to my ancestors to “pass” and census records have them recorded as White. Therefore, White we are and pretty much always have been.

My family, like so many, need to have an “I can explain” or asterisk next to the box or at least a few lines where we can include an interesting narrative!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t consider Italians as white

I don’t think Italians are one race.

Italians are the white Europeans.

Europe is a place not a race. Southern Italians and Siclians genetically cluster closer to Levantine Arabs and other West Asians than they do to all Europeans besides Greeks and southern balkanites. They're just as close to Lebanese and Syrian people genetically as they are to Northern Italians.

Asia is a place not a race?

Africa is a place not a race?

Should everyone get to put down their 23 and me statistics?

You're just proving my point about how ignoring western notions of race are. Of course Africa is a place and not a race. Are Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans, Nigerians, Ghanians, etc all the same race?

It's very obvious that Mediterraneans--regardless of whether they're from Africa, "Europe," or "Asia" all share a great degree of looks, ancestry, culture, architecture, food, and history. It doesn't take a 23andme test or rocket science to realize this. All it takes is visiting countries in the Mediterranean. Are you implying that Italians and Greeks are more similar to Finnish people and Swedes than to Lebanese people and Tunisians?

Europe is a fake continent that "westerners" drew in Eurasia to divide the Muslims and other "eastern" cultures from "western" cultures. It had no significant meaning historically, culturally, ancestrally, etc until Europeans forged relations with each other more recently via the EU.

Ignorant not ignoring*

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don’t consider Italians as white

I don’t think Italians are one race.

Italians are the white Europeans.

Europe is a place not a race. Southern Italians and Siclians genetically cluster closer to Levantine Arabs and other West Asians than they do to all Europeans besides Greeks and southern balkanites. They're just as close to Lebanese and Syrian people genetically as they are to Northern Italians.

Asia is a place not a race?

Africa is a place not a race?

Should everyone get to put down their 23 and me statistics?

You're just proving my point about how ignoring western notions of race are. Of course Africa is a place and not a race. Are Tunisians, Algerians, Moroccans, Nigerians, Ghanians, etc all the same race?

It's very obvious that Mediterraneans--regardless of whether they're from Africa, "Europe," or "Asia" all share a great degree of looks, ancestry, culture, architecture, food, and history. It doesn't take a 23andme test or rocket science to realize this. All it takes is visiting countries in the Mediterranean. Are you implying that Italians and Greeks are more similar to Finnish people and Swedes than to Lebanese people and Tunisians?

Europe is a fake continent that "westerners" drew in Eurasia to divide the Muslims and other "eastern" cultures from "western" cultures. It had no significant meaning historically, culturally, ancestrally, etc until Europeans forged relations with each other more recently via the EU.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:White and they worked to make sure of that because they did not want to be lumped in as West Asian. White was better.

Now that it's more beneficial to be labeled as something other than white and asian, the tide is turning to wanting a separate racial distinguisher.

Not all white people are privileged, it's still okay to be white folks. You can be white and muslim, white and jewish, white and christian. Religion is not race.

I agree with this, but there needs to be some adjustments made. For example, Afro-Iranians, Afro-Arabs, Afro-Turks, and Hazaras from Afghanistan should not be made to check "white" when they literally aren't and they need to be given minority status to reflect their true lived experiences. Pashtuns in Pakistan are legally considered "Asian," while the Pashtuns in Afghanistan are considered "white." They should both be considered white, as the Pashtun areas of Pakistan were historically part of Afghanistan, and Pashtuns are a West-Central Asian people rather than South Asian.

Afro-anywhere are not made to check "white". They can check their race as black. Pashtuns do not have to check "Asian" they can check "white".

Race is not where you live. Race is not nationality. Race is not religion. Race is not ethnicity.

Race is used as a designator of where you originated from based on the definitions listed on the boxes. And yes, you can check more than one box if your race is mixed. Afro-Iranian with one black parent that originated from Africa and one white parent that originated from Iran? Then check black and white or mixed.

Anonymous wrote:White and they worked to make sure of that because they did not want to be lumped in as West Asian. White was better.

Now that it's more beneficial to be labeled as something other than white and asian, the tide is turning to wanting a separate racial distinguisher.

Not all white people are privileged, it's still okay to be white folks. You can be white and muslim, white and jewish, white and christian. Religion is not race.

I agree with this, but there needs to be some adjustments made. For example, Afro-Iranians, Afro-Arabs, Afro-Turks, and Hazaras from Afghanistan should not be made to check "white" when they literally aren't and they need to be given minority status to reflect their true lived experiences. Pashtuns in Pakistan are legally considered "Asian," while the Pashtuns in Afghanistan are considered "white." They should both be considered white, as the Pashtun areas of Pakistan were historically part of Afghanistan, and Pashtuns are a West-Central Asian people rather than South Asian.