I also ended up telling the teacher that we had police show up and they talked to both myself and child- and that I had no accusations against me. Just in case he starts blabbering at school about it. But now the cat is out of the box.
I do not for a second believe that teachers do not discuss stuff like that amongst themselves.

On a different note: I think it will be better for both of us to get family counseling where the counselor gets to know both of us yet can have 1-1 with either of us.

Anonymous wrote:OP didn't say what state she's in, other than it's not the DMV area.

I was a CPS worker and the state I was in privatized that operation. The county sheriff's office won the bid and so I was employed by the sheriff's office and was accompanied by law enforcement when I made calls. I had 4 hours to attempt to see a child if it was an "immediate" or 24 hours for a regular case. There were times when I could get out to see a regular case same day, so it is not impossible to either get there in fairly soon after and it was standard to have law enforcement with me. However, LE would never respond without a CPS worker so that part is a little unusual, but it's not clear how CPS operates in OP's jurisdiction.

OP, I say this as a parent of a very challenging child who's been diagnosed with anxiety and oppositional defiant disorder- you need parenting skills to learn how to parent your kid before he becomes too big and ends up beating you up. I don't know if the school counselor is cutting it for your son- he may need something more intensive.

I was just told it is normal to have the first visit conducted by LE (which I think is a bit crazy but whatever).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As for “coaching” the kid, I told him I begged to differ. What if I called police on him every time he tried to hit me or yelled or cursed? Also, there are serious things happening to kids and authorities need to come and check that it wasn’t the case. Which is why they came, and they woujd have taken him away if the situation was serious.

I am still on the verge about whether to talk to the counselor about CPS. I want her to know that there will be serious repercussions for me, like I won’t be able to work with children. And that it was a lot of stress for both of us.

Wait -- are you saying that because there was a report immediately deemed at first investigation to not substantiate abuse, because of that you will never be able to work with children?

Either you are sorely misinformed, or there is history (or details) not shared yet here.

Exactly so.
Once a case is opened with cps, it will be on record with cps. No matter the outcome. It will not come up in general background checks. Yet, if there is a court order to disclose, CPS will do it. Also, it comes up at specific background checks for jobs like teacher or even volunteering with kids without a certified adult present. This is what the cps person has told me, and it is consistent with what I was able to google. I repeat: no matter the outcome of the cps case. Maybe you will be able to persuade your prospective employer that it was nothing, but they will know it happened.
So, buyer beware.

OP didn't say what state she's in, other than it's not the DMV area.

I was a CPS worker and the state I was in privatized that operation. The county sheriff's office won the bid and so I was employed by the sheriff's office and was accompanied by law enforcement when I made calls. I had 4 hours to attempt to see a child if it was an "immediate" or 24 hours for a regular case. There were times when I could get out to see a regular case same day, so it is not impossible to either get there in fairly soon after and it was standard to have law enforcement with me. However, LE would never respond without a CPS worker so that part is a little unusual, but it's not clear how CPS operates in OP's jurisdiction.

OP, I say this as a parent of a very challenging child who's been diagnosed with anxiety and oppositional defiant disorder- you need parenting skills to learn how to parent your kid before he becomes too big and ends up beating you up. I don't know if the school counselor is cutting it for your son- he may need something more intensive.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As for “coaching” the kid, I told him I begged to differ. What if I called police on him every time he tried to hit me or yelled or cursed? Also, there are serious things happening to kids and authorities need to come and check that it wasn’t the case. Which is why they came, and they woujd have taken him away if the situation was serious.

I am still on the verge about whether to talk to the counselor about CPS. I want her to know that there will be serious repercussions for me, like I won’t be able to work with children. And that it was a lot of stress for both of us.

Children are not just like typical adults. Their bodies are different, their level of vulnerability to abuse is extraordinarily higher, and the legal requirements for reporting suspected abuse are very different.

You are being too literal.
Look, I could abuse him by denying fun or not talking to him or buying clothes he hates. There are so many ways to morally abuse. Yet, losing it and slapping is seen as something much worse. What a joke!

Anonymous wrote:As for “coaching” the kid, I told him I begged to differ. What if I called police on him every time he tried to hit me or yelled or cursed? Also, there are serious things happening to kids and authorities need to come and check that it wasn’t the case. Which is why they came, and they woujd have taken him away if the situation was serious.

I am still on the verge about whether to talk to the counselor about CPS. I want her to know that there will be serious repercussions for me, like I won’t be able to work with children. And that it was a lot of stress for both of us.

Wait -- are you saying that because there was a report immediately deemed at first investigation to not substantiate abuse, because of that you will never be able to work with children?

Either you are sorely misinformed, or there is history (or details) not shared yet here.

Anonymous wrote:As for “coaching” the kid, I told him I begged to differ. What if I called police on him every time he tried to hit me or yelled or cursed? Also, there are serious things happening to kids and authorities need to come and check that it wasn’t the case. Which is why they came, and they woujd have taken him away if the situation was serious.

I am still on the verge about whether to talk to the counselor about CPS. I want her to know that there will be serious repercussions for me, like I won’t be able to work with children. And that it was a lot of stress for both of us.

Children are not just like typical adults. Their bodies are different, their level of vulnerability to abuse is extraordinarily higher, and the legal requirements for reporting suspected abuse are very different.

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all the replies, but just pull him out of counseling. So what if it looks bad. The counselor can't report you for discontinuing therapy with her. Get a private therapist and have your son see them.

Our son had a bad experience earlier this year - he was victim of something that involved the police coming and started a whole chain of events. The school keeps pushing for him to see the school counselor and I could tell they get a little miffed that we keep refusing (writing in his IEP that we refuse services). But there is no way in hell I'm subjecting my SN child to a general school counselor who doesn't specialize in the specific things DC needs. We found a therapist that specializes in his disability and the issue surrounding the event that occurred at the beginning of the school year. She works with the exact issue my son is dealing with. And, when there's a question about something he tells her - she calls me in after their session and talks to me about it. It's so much more reasonable and responsible. She doesn't just call the cops or cps when he mentions something offhand.

seriously, get your own therapist for your kid. It's definitely worth it.

Thank you, I think this is what I will do in the end. Never such thing as a free lunch, eh?
I am just so so pissed right now.

As for “coaching” the kid, I told him I begged to differ. What if I called police on him every time he tried to hit me or yelled or cursed? Also, there are serious things happening to kids and authorities need to come and check that it wasn’t the case. Which is why they came, and they woujd have taken him away if the situation was serious.

I am still on the verge about whether to talk to the counselor about CPS. I want her to know that there will be serious repercussions for me, like I won’t be able to work with children. And that it was a lot of stress for both of us.

OP here: I am also going to talk to my son if he likes the counselor and wants to continue, or maybe he just sees is as part of school- mandatory. If he doesn’t care, I will pull him out.
Counseling was not suggested by the school- I was tired of the teacher (1st year) telling me he would not sit up on the carpet when told to, or chatted too much, or made a joke that was not very appropriate. We were also going thru a rough patch as a family so I asked if she could refer him and she did.
I wanted to see the counselor anyway to ask what they were working on and to get access to whatever I am entitled to (even before the incident). Now I am just going to be more assertive- if she is just puttering around I am not going to be lenient. Also want to ask the teacher if she has seen improvement in behavior (not in writing- because I want an honest opinion as much as possible).
I mean, I can just pull him out- but it will make the counselors life too easy eh?

Anonymous wrote:I haven't read all the replies, but just pull him out of counseling. So what if it looks bad. The counselor can't report you for discontinuing therapy with her. Get a private therapist and have your son see them.

Our son had a bad experience earlier this year - he was victim of something that involved the police coming and started a whole chain of events. The school keeps pushing for him to see the school counselor and I could tell they get a little miffed that we keep refusing (writing in his IEP that we refuse services). But there is no way in hell I'm subjecting my SN child to a general school counselor who doesn't specialize in the specific things DC needs. We found a therapist that specializes in his disability and the issue surrounding the event that occurred at the beginning of the school year. She works with the exact issue my son is dealing with. And, when there's a question about something he tells her - she calls me in after their session and talks to me about it. It's so much more reasonable and responsible. She doesn't just call the cops or cps when he mentions something offhand.

seriously, get your own therapist for your kid. It's definitely worth it.

Off topic but not completely (since IEP/504 disagreements can and do lead to CPS involvement): this seemed odd. If there is a disagreement about eligibility, since IDEA 2004 schools cannot force due process to force parents to accept services. (They could, however, plausibly refer as an educational neglect issue, in which case things get super murky in terms of law and in terms of how individual jurisdictions deal with it). If you mean there is an IEP and you are just disagreeing with a piece of the IEP, arguably you should pursue resolutions processes (because what if kid really needs something else, by letting it go as a refusenik you are undermining your own procedural safeguards) -- although I can see it also being possible that just saying nope seems like the least awful way to deal with things.

I fear this myself. Normal, average parent here. I’ve defintiely improved my emotional response to kids being crazy/bad attitudes. I’m much more level now, and understand better that it’s better to remain calm.

I’ve also had times since getting better that my kids THINK I’m yelling or hurting them. For example, just saying things with a tone that ‘means business.’ My kids call that yelling. I guess they forgot how I used to yell.

Additionally, my child would not go to her room. I asked her 3-4 times, and it was needed. I told her if she didn’t t go I would pick her up and carry her. She continued to not listen. I calmly told her “I’m picking you up now.” And then did so. As i carried her, she flailed and ended up kicking the door badly. She hurt her leg. She accused me of hurting her by slamming her into the door.... Nope.

Anyways, I’m not afraid of my child telling people these things. I am afraid if she does tell someone, her perspective isn’t quite right, and it would sound worse. When I am very calm now, and/or have worked on my response as it was not great in the past. (Or that they would talk about my worst moments, that I leaned from.)

I feel like parents can’t make mistakes and learn from them now. We’re all supposed to be ready for a 5yo to flip a switch and become really crazy and know exactly what to do, and not emotionally react.

Yes, parents are people who are growing and learning and are not perfect.

Also not reading the whole thing.

Cops showing up as opposed to CPS: that would be just to confirm where there is an imminent danger, injury to the child, etc. CPS will continue their own investigation.

It may be the counselor was required to report--the legal threshold AND how it is applied do vary, since there is probably NO state in which physically disciplining a child is illegal altogether, but spanking IS viewed differently than other kinds of hitting. Which is weird IMO.

I know of a PhD psychology professor who threw his 14 year old daughter across the room during an argument and did NOT get in any trouble (the girl, however, ended up going before a juvenile court judge after running away--to my house--after the argument). I know of someone whose kids were taken out of the house unlawfully (that part was determined in court proceedings) by an officer based on a CPS report by a ES teacher and instructions to the officer from the CPS worker. The report included 1 report of spanking (which turned out to have happened because the middle kid pushed his pre-school brother down a short flight of steps in their split-entry house) but ALSO reports of excessive discipline/control such as the 2nd grader not being allowed to prepare his own snacks in the kitchen and being restricted from TV when he didn't finish his homework. Seriously, that's the records the ES teacher was keeping and provided to police.

Now. If confrontations result in slapping your kid, you need some help keeping it together when you feel provoked. As for the counseling, I don't know. I know of a parent who pulled her daughter out of a counseling program (school/social services partnership) when the girl started saying she would quit smoking pot when her mom did--and nothing happened to that mom. But that mom--who should have been nailed by social services more than once--always got away with stuff because she wore church sweatshirts and got her church to vouch for her, they had NO clue she was a serial check forger, shoplifter, drug mule, and it turned out drug user.

But, if you find other counseling, inform any officials (including the school counselor if they have been having ongoing involvement) who become involved that you have done so. You need to be getting counseling as well.

Be careful how you communicate concerns about legal involvement to your kid. Depending on the situation, it is likely to feel scary to the kid although with some kids they might use that as a tool against the parent or might WANT outside people to become involved. What you need to do is explain to the kid in a RATIONAL way how the system is supposed to work to protect kids, that the kid should NEVER be afraid to ask an appropriate adult for help, and that his welfare is very important to you. Anything that could come across as coaching secrecy can backfire, but is also morally reprehensible.

As a SN parent I did have entanglements with child welfare systems as well as all the school people. I know very well that it is hard to find people who are really helpful, that horrible abuse of the bureaucracy can happen, that the (in theory) goal of protecting children can do terrible things to kids, that these systems are fraught with internal and external politics and you have to watch out, but the first order of business is to conduct yourself on the assumption that they are fair, their purpose is legitimate. Learn what the written rules are and hold them to those rules.

And, repeat, find some way to divert yourself from slapping the kid.

I'm sorry that you had this experience. Being a parent is really hard at times and we don't always deal with it well. I wouldn't suggest removing him from seeing the counselor. She has a mandated duty to report and he obviously feels comfortable enough to share things with her which can help in the long term. Maybe in addition to his sessions, you find a therapist for yourself to help deal with ways to manage the stress of parenting and alternatives to corporal punishment.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I am offended on your behalf, OP!

Tell your child that while this is not his fault, it has to be a lesson in the future, not to blab to adults at school about his private life. That you love him and only want the best for him, and that you will do your level best not to hit him in the future.

I would not give this counselor the satisfaction of letting her know anything! Let her wonder... and I would actually continue the session for a bit, just to get her to stew even more. Your child will know not to tell her anything about tonight.

Way to go, Ms. Selfish. I really hope OP does not listen to you.

OP's son is already in counseling for issues that he has. Obviously that includes emotional outbursts such as throwing his backpack when he pinched his finger. Now, you want her to counsel him NOT to talk to the counselor, the one who can help him to work out his emotional issues, just to protect herself since she can't control her own emotional outbursts. Shame on you for putting your own needs ahead of your child's. As I said, I hope that OP ignores you. You have terrible maternal instincts.

Sigh. How to explain this to DCUM, a place where people assume everyone has the same children/spouse/life they have, and who reflexively post without thinking things through?

A few points, however, that I have learned the hard way as a parent of a challenging child:

1. Sometimes there is no good option, and the parent must choose the least worst option. Sometimes that means slapping their child. I do not believe that is abuse. If you've never had to parent a very difficult child, that you sometimes wish had never been born, even though you love him to bits and would die for him, well lucky you. You do not know our pain.

2. I'm not sure why so many posters think counseling is the magic bullet, when it can do more harm than good. Why? Because many counselors are not trained to take into account mental health disorders at a practical level (medication, dosage, effect, self-awareness, behavior modification specific to the disorder). That's the HUGE flaw with counseling as a profession, since most relationship issues are at heart behavioral issues that stem from sub-clinical or clinical mental health problems. As you know, most mental health disorders exist on a spectrum, from the non-existent to the extreme, and somewhere along the line there is a cut-off beyond which you are diagnosable. It doesn't mean most people walking around don't have tendencies to such and such. Counseling should be able to address this, but does not.

3. If you are self-aware enough, you will realize that most people are just a bunch of lemmings. They self-righteously claim that one should never hit, one should never yell, one should never own a gun, one should never hurt the environment, etc, etc. All well and good. But have they truly done their homework and THOUGHT about these things? No, they're just repeating what others are saying. If you actually think about these issues, you will realize that there are instances where it's not all black and white. Any time someone says "always" or "never", it's a red flag that they've let someone else do the thinking for them.

I know it's a lot to ask of DCUM, but a little bit of reflection and humility before you post would make you a wiser and better person.

It is abuse - you don't want to think it is - but it is. I have a special needs child with tons of challenges and have never hit him. https://www.aappublications.org/news/2018/11/05/discipline110518 There are lots of gray areas in this world, abusing your child is not in that zone.