Anonymous wrote:An article about salvation by faith alone, which seems to be the doctrine held by most Protestant denominations. Catholics, of course, believe in salvation by faith and works (both, not just works).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_fide

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I'm not aware of any Christian denomination that preaches "salvation through works alone." It's either just through faith (aka acceptance of Jesus as your Lord and Savior), or through faith and works.

BTW -- I'm not Christian at all, but I'm just arguing that what you're saying isn't consistent with Christianity. Sure I believe a lot of religious traditions have legitimate ways of accessing the spiritual realm (which I don't believe involves communion with a Judeo-Christian God), but Christianity sure doesn't preach that.

No. That is not true.

It's not true that Christians believe the only way to God is through Jesus? Then what, exactly, do Christians mean when they say "Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior"?

NP. Plenty of Christians believe in salvation through works. The debate about “works vs. faith” has gone on for centuries, which should tell you that there have always been many Christians who think it’s about works. That’s why some (most?) of the mainline Protestant denominations believe that someone who doesn’t know Jesus but lives a “Christ-like” life can get into heaven. Jesus showed us how to live, and that’s how he “saved” mankind.

I'm unaware of any Christian denomination that says you can have salvation by works alone. I thought it was either by faith alone or by faith and works.

Jesus didn't just give a good example of how to be a good person. You have to accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior (and, according to some but not all Christian denominations, be a good person) to get into heaven. Anyone who says otherwise is just misunderstanding what Christianity says about salvation.

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Anonymous wrote:The entire point of Christianity is relationship with Jesus. Everything- good works, salvation, heaven, flows through that. It is not just some abstract concept of belief.

iow -- get a relationship with Jesus, goddammit, if you ever expect to get to heaven.

Well, if you don’t want to have a relationship with Jesus, you don’t have to. “Heaven,” is not really the goal, relationship with Jesus is. Heaven is only MORE relationship with Jesus, forever and ever.

So if you are not Christian, there is no reason for you to WANT Christian heaven. We don’t know what the alternative is. We assume “Hell” is a place of eternal suffering, but I don’t see a solid Biblical description of what that means. In the Bible “death” and “Hell” are sort of used interchangeably. Perhaps if you don’t believe, you die, and that is the end of the story.

But the point is that, according to Christian doctrine, if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are not going to have as enjoyable of an afterlife as those who do. Communion with God is supposed to be better than being distant from God.

You can be a non-Christian and not care about Christian heaven, but if Christians are right, your afterlife will be worse than those who accepted Jesus, whether you think you care about Christian heaven or not.

No- according to Christians, if you do not have a relationship with Jesus, EVERY moment of your existence will be worse- from this exact moment until the end of eternity. Heaven is communion with Jesus- the better your relationship with Jesus in this exact moment, the better your present will be. You can have heaven on Earth if you truly want it. Whether you are dead or not is largely irrelevant. Jesus is alive, right now, and if you reject him, you are automatically worse off than you would be if you had a relationship with him. That is how I was taught about Christianity.

You are automatically worse off because you judge others.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not aware of any Christian denomination that preaches "salvation through works alone." It's either just through faith (aka acceptance of Jesus as your Lord and Savior), or through faith and works.

BTW -- I'm not Christian at all, but I'm just arguing that what you're saying isn't consistent with Christianity. Sure I believe a lot of religious traditions have legitimate ways of accessing the spiritual realm (which I don't believe involves communion with a Judeo-Christian God), but Christianity sure doesn't preach that.

No. That is not true.

It's not true that Christians believe the only way to God is through Jesus? Then what, exactly, do Christians mean when they say "Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior"?

NP. Plenty of Christians believe in salvation through works. The debate about “works vs. faith” has gone on for centuries, which should tell you that there have always been many Christians who think it’s about works. That’s why some (most?) of the mainline Protestant denominations believe that someone who doesn’t know Jesus but lives a “Christ-like” life can get into heaven. Jesus showed us how to live, and that’s how he “saved” mankind.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I'm not aware of any Christian denomination that preaches "salvation through works alone." It's either just through faith (aka acceptance of Jesus as your Lord and Savior), or through faith and works.

BTW -- I'm not Christian at all, but I'm just arguing that what you're saying isn't consistent with Christianity. Sure I believe a lot of religious traditions have legitimate ways of accessing the spiritual realm (which I don't believe involves communion with a Judeo-Christian God), but Christianity sure doesn't preach that.

No. That is not true.

It's not true that Christians believe the only way to God is through Jesus? Then what, exactly, do Christians mean when they say "Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior"?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The entire point of Christianity is relationship with Jesus. Everything- good works, salvation, heaven, flows through that. It is not just some abstract concept of belief.

iow -- get a relationship with Jesus, goddammit, if you ever expect to get to heaven.

Well, if you don’t want to have a relationship with Jesus, you don’t have to. “Heaven,” is not really the goal, relationship with Jesus is. Heaven is only MORE relationship with Jesus, forever and ever.

So if you are not Christian, there is no reason for you to WANT Christian heaven. We don’t know what the alternative is. We assume “Hell” is a place of eternal suffering, but I don’t see a solid Biblical description of what that means. In the Bible “death” and “Hell” are sort of used interchangeably. Perhaps if you don’t believe, you die, and that is the end of the story.

But the point is that, according to Christian doctrine, if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are not going to have as enjoyable of an afterlife as those who do. Communion with God is supposed to be better than being distant from God.

You can be a non-Christian and not care about Christian heaven, but if Christians are right, your afterlife will be worse than those who accepted Jesus, whether you think you care about Christian heaven or not.

No- according to Christians, if you do not have a relationship with Jesus, EVERY moment of your existence will be worse- from this exact moment until the end of eternity. Heaven is communion with Jesus- the better your relationship with Jesus in this exact moment, the better your present will be. You can have heaven on Earth if you truly want it. Whether you are dead or not is largely irrelevant. Jesus is alive, right now, and if you reject him, you are automatically worse off than you would be if you had a relationship with him. That is how I was taught about Christianity.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The entire point of Christianity is relationship with Jesus. Everything- good works, salvation, heaven, flows through that. It is not just some abstract concept of belief.

iow -- get a relationship with Jesus, goddammit, if you ever expect to get to heaven.

Well, if you don’t want to have a relationship with Jesus, you don’t have to. “Heaven,” is not really the goal, relationship with Jesus is. Heaven is only MORE relationship with Jesus, forever and ever.

So if you are not Christian, there is no reason for you to WANT Christian heaven. We don’t know what the alternative is. We assume “Hell” is a place of eternal suffering, but I don’t see a solid Biblical description of what that means. In the Bible “death” and “Hell” are sort of used interchangeably. Perhaps if you don’t believe, you die, and that is the end of the story.

But the point is that, according to Christian doctrine, if you don't accept Jesus as your Lord and Savior, you are not going to have as enjoyable of an afterlife as those who do. Communion with God is supposed to be better than being distant from God.

You can be a non-Christian and not care about Christian heaven, but if Christians are right, your afterlife will be worse than those who accepted Jesus, whether you think you care about Christian heaven or not.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The entire point of Christianity is relationship with Jesus. Everything- good works, salvation, heaven, flows through that. It is not just some abstract concept of belief.

iow -- get a relationship with Jesus, goddammit, if you ever expect to get to heaven.

Well, if you don’t want to have a relationship with Jesus, you don’t have to. “Heaven,” is not really the goal, relationship with Jesus is. Heaven is only MORE relationship with Jesus, forever and ever.

So if you are not Christian, there is no reason for you to WANT Christian heaven. We don’t know what the alternative is. We assume “Hell” is a place of eternal suffering, but I don’t see a solid Biblical description of what that means. In the Bible “death” and “Hell” are sort of used interchangeably. Perhaps if you don’t believe, you die, and that is the end of the story.

Anonymous wrote:I think OP there will never be a satisfactory answer to your question. I'm a Christian and I don't "care" about any specific sin. We all sin. Period. I don't go around spouting that "this" is a sin and "that" is a sin, but if YOU ask me specifically about "this" or "that", then I'm going to have to say yes, it's a sin. Quit trying to play gotcha and just understand that we all sin and true Christians are trying not to and want that everyone know Jesus' love and saving power.

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Anonymous wrote:NP: PP you are trying to force PPP into a false cubby.

I was raised Catholic in a Benedictine school, and we were never taught that ours was the only way. I understand that many people never learned that, and that you appear to have been given the impression that all Christians believe what you think they believe, but you should be relieved (I think) to know that they don't.

So you were explicitly taught that people can gain salvation and entrance into heaven and FULL communion with God WITHOUT accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior? How did your teachers reconcile that with verses like "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6)?

Or were you taught that you should be tolerant of other people's belief systems?

There's a big difference between the two.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The entire point of Christianity is relationship with Jesus. Everything- good works, salvation, heaven, flows through that. It is not just some abstract concept of belief.

iow -- get a relationship with Jesus, goddammit, if you ever expect to get to heaven.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:NP: PP you are trying to force PPP into a false cubby.

I was raised Catholic in a Benedictine school, and we were never taught that ours was the only way. I understand that many people never learned that, and that you appear to have been given the impression that all Christians believe what you think they believe, but you should be relieved (I think) to know that they don't.

So you were explicitly taught that people can gain salvation and entrance into heaven and FULL communion with God WITHOUT accepting Jesus as their Lord and Savior? How did your teachers reconcile that with verses like "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me" (John 14:6)?

Or were you taught that you should be tolerant of other people's belief systems?

There's a big difference between the two.

Anonymous wrote:NP: PP you are trying to force PPP into a false cubby.

I was raised Catholic in a Benedictine school, and we were never taught that ours was the only way. I understand that many people never learned that, and that you appear to have been given the impression that all Christians believe what you think they believe, but you should be relieved (I think) to know that they don't.