not the PP who asked for the update, but thank you for the update, OP.

OP here. To the poster who wondered if I'd made progress. The answer is: sort of. DS went away to camp for a month this past summer and was very homesick (he was so surprised!) This really helped our relationship. Also, once school stopped, he felt MUCH LESS stressed. We were in a bad cycle of stress, anxiety and power struggle. Once we got out of it- something I think we both wanted, we've been working on new patterns. Sometimes we slide back into old patterns but so far we're making progress in the right direction. I decided that, for the most part, I'm going to try to avoid controlling him. That doesn't feel entirely satisfying because teenagers can be really selfish jerks and I sometimes feel like I'm being a chump. At the same time, I'm trying to guide him/remind him without nagging about things I think are important. And I've done a lot of listening and empathizing. I've really tried to get inside his head and figure out why he was so unhappy and stressed out.

He does not want to go to therapy and I'm not making him, but I am going to therapy to help me deal with some of my feelings that come up around parenting a teen!

Anyway, all of this is to say, I don't have any answers, but yes, things are moving toward a better place.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You can't order him around, OP, and say: "Pick it up now." That's too authoritarian and control-freaky and anybody would balk. Those of us with an oppositional streak would refuse just on those grounds

What you can do is say: "I want you to pick up all your stuff in this room/in the house before dinner/after dinner/before the guests come in half an hour". Then he gets a measure of freedom to manage his time and that feels less aggressive and controlling.

Exactly. And if he doesn't, then you get to choose what to do with the stuff as he has effectively abandoned it. Sometimes things in our house get tossed that way, or thrown into a box in the basement.

Unfortunately, it was my thing that he had borrowed and decided not to put away!

Next time he wants to borrow something from him, he doesn't get to. That's a logical consequence.

Yes, OP. Say something like: I see that you didn't put away what you asked to borrow. Since I had to put it away, please do not ask for more of my things until you can promise you will put them away when you are done. I do that with my 12 year old who has an oppositional defiant streak. I understand how frustration it is, I have two other kids that do what they need to do when warned and respond to threats of me taking away their things. But my son doesn't. I really want to slap him sometimes (I've never raised a hand to any of my kids, but my son sure does test my limits). But I know that would be completely counter-intuitive. I read tons of books on it and I have had to adjust my speech for him. It has been a life saver because we don't argue any more. I'm done arguing. I just say my blurb, if he doesn't do as asked, there are consequences, period. Even if the consequences are for a month later.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Where is his dad in all of this?

I take it you missed that his father died.

I didn’t see that. I’m sure that’s part of all this- missing Dad or at least the male presence at this time in his life.

Anonymous wrote:Where is his dad in all of this?

I take it you missed that his father died.

Anonymous wrote:First, I would remove the word “obey” from your vocabulary. He’s a teen, not a subject.

I don't think you understand the meaning of obeying. I am an adult in my 40s, but I am obeying my parents and always will.

Where is his dad in all of this?

Anonymous wrote:Since punishment didn't work perhaps it's time for a different approach.

I would (and have) sit down with your son, tell him that you would like to have a closer relationship and ask him what you can do to make that happen.

And then listen. And be prepared to work with him. It really works if you want to build a relationship.

But if you want blind obedience, ignore everything I just said. You may be able to punish your way to blind obedience but you will not be close to your son. You have to decide what path you want to take.

Totally agree. I just did this. It was a very revealing two hour conversation. Really listen, empathize don’t over react. These years are hard- I’m sure you remember being a teen.

First, I would remove the word “obey” from your vocabulary. He’s a teen, not a subject.

OP, did you make any progress? I found your thread when doing my own search for my teen son's nehavior. He also is disobedient, oppositional, argumentative, talks back, insults us, makes fun of us, constantly annoys siblings, will not bring books home to study, lies directly to our faces, will not clean room or do anything to help around the house. Will not hang clothes up or put them away, has garbage in his room, etc. Doesn't care about school or grades. I actually do wonder if he is a sociopath sometimes.

Anonymous wrote:Don’t flame me, but my teen has started being openly defiant. I’ve already taken away his phone. That’s really the only thing he cares about. Now that I have the phone, I have no other leverage. For example, I ask him to pick up something that he left in the living room and he says, “No. It’s ok. I don’t need to do that right now.” And I say,”Yes. You do. I’m telling you to do it now.” And he just sits there. What do you do?

If you've already taken away the only thing he cares about, you have no other leverage and he's probably relieved he doesn't have to do what you tell him anymore.

I would check out the info about defiance and maybe going to counseling to figure out next steps.

Anonymous wrote:Don’t flame me, but my teen has started being openly defiant. I’ve already taken away his phone. That’s really the only thing he cares about. Now that I have the phone, I have no other leverage. For example, I ask him to pick up something that he left in the living room and he says, “No. It’s ok. I don’t need to do that right now.” And I say,”Yes. You do. I’m telling you to do it now.” And he just sits there. What do you do?

I don't think there's any acceptable way to get a teen with a strong will to "obey." You have to hope that your strong-willed kid develops values and goals that are acceptable to you by the tween years or you're lost. Maybe you can bully an older kid into doing what you say, and any parent may have to nag to get a kid to live up to the kid's own standards. But the only peaceful way to get action is to remind the kid to meet the kid's own standards, or, possibly, the standards of an outside mentor or idol. The only way the parents' standards matter at that point is if they're already built somewhere into the kid.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

I do what needs to be done without the threat of punishment because I know that if it ever got to the point at work where they had to threaten me with punishment, my career would be over and I might as well find another job. Nevertheless, I am well aware that my employers have the ability to punish me if it comes to that, and this awareness affects my behavior.

Whether or not you dislike "authoritarianism" is irrelevant. Authority exists, in the government, the workplace, and the home. And it is conserved - either you have it , or someone else does. In my home, I am the parent, and that means I have the authority. You are not doing your kids any favors by pretending that authority does not exist and not using the authority you have. You are one of the weak, spineless parents I see all the time who let their kids run wild. No doubt you will be surprised and dismayed when your awful children turn out to be defiant and irresponsible.

Who has said that authority doesn't exist? Obviously authority exists. That's not what authoritarian means. Actually your post is a pretty good example of an authoritarian philosophy.

And your posts are a fine example of stupid conflation of authority and authoritarianism.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He put the items in the living room before school on purpose because he knew I wanted it decluttered for guests coming today. He was about to leave for school. If he didn’t move it then, I would have to move it. And in fact, saying, “Please clean your mess before dinner.” Just results in... him not cleaning his mess before dinner. I’m actually not a super authoritarian person in general. He’s going out of his way to be defiant and that’s what I need help sorting out.

Oh, I would clean up right behind him... with a garbage bag. And nothing would be replaced!

I really can't imagine making my kids clean up their school books before dinner, they have more homework.

I feel like there are some really OCDish people on this thread.

Dude, it wasn't "school books" it was teen boy stuff. He comes into the house and leaves a trail of items in his wake including actual garbage. I'm fine with picking up an item here or there for him, but I would have to follow him around and be his personal valet or have the house be his personal garbage can if I didn't insist that he pick up things sometimes. My point was, if I say nicely, "Hey could you please pick this stuff up (at some point today)." He'll agree and then just not do it. Rinse repeat. And each time, I have to think about it, remember to remind him, negotiate with him etc. It's exhausting. I'm not in any way OCD btw.

OP- I responded earlier that I think your son is engaging in oppositional behavior. It's more typical to test boundaries, assert independence, etc. It's another matter for him to argue over small things on a constant basis to the point where it disrupts your household or attempt to mess up your day by refusing to comply with a reasonable demand.

Here is a short article on it.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/liking-the-child-you-love/201706/does-your-child-or-teen-have-oppositional-defiant-behavior

If this describes your son, you need to tread carefully and get some therapy for him. A lot of these strategies here won't work because it's often embedded behavior (either neurological or hardwired through habit). Going toe-to-toe on something like this will escalate badly. I have a son with ADHD (younger) who can be defiant. When I start with authoritarian methods out of sheer frustration (as recommended in some of these posts) it goes sideways. A good therapist can give you strategies for dealing with this behavior. It's a very methodical approach.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:He put the items in the living room before school on purpose because he knew I wanted it decluttered for guests coming today. He was about to leave for school. If he didn’t move it then, I would have to move it. And in fact, saying, “Please clean your mess before dinner.” Just results in... him not cleaning his mess before dinner. I’m actually not a super authoritarian person in general. He’s going out of his way to be defiant and that’s what I need help sorting out.

Oh, I would clean up right behind him... with a garbage bag. And nothing would be replaced!

I really can't imagine making my kids clean up their school books before dinner, they have more homework.

I feel like there are some really OCDish people on this thread.

Dude, it wasn't "school books" it was teen boy stuff. He comes into the house and leaves a trail of items in his wake including actual garbage. I'm fine with picking up an item here or there for him, but I would have to follow him around and be his personal valet or have the house be his personal garbage can if I didn't insist that he pick up things sometimes. My point was, if I say nicely, "Hey could you please pick this stuff up (at some point today)." He'll agree and then just not do it. Rinse repeat. And each time, I have to think about it, remember to remind him, negotiate with him etc. It's exhausting. I'm not in any way OCD btw.