Weird they mixed falls Church and Oakton. Should just be falls Church. The area is low performers, true colors come through when they remove the odd zoned Oakton areas

Is there any document that FCPS has provided that has analyzed the FARMS rates current and future with this proposal?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It might benefit from some more Asians, but it's also a very wealthy school and could use some diversity of income.

And they will get that from this rezoning. MWES is a very diverse school with a substantial FARMS rate (probably at least 35%). The AAP center part of MWES hides the true farms rate of the population that goes to LJMS (i.e. the base school).

Yes, but that is offset by the fact that Oakton ES has a lower FARMS percentage than Thoreau today (and, of course, a much lower percentage than Jackson as a whole).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't "hurt" them. It's just reveals what they actually are at the ms level (to some extent).

It may "hurt" the image of LJ. But the image was false up to this point if anyone was using LJ's reputation to assess the desirability of the pyramid.

The white and asian students at the MS are high performers (on SOLs) and that remains true at the HS level (even though their proportional representation in the schools change from MS to HS with the loss of the OHS and JMHS kids). They aren't "hurt" b/c they still have the same teachers and programs at the MS level.

The Great Schools rating may take a hit. Housing values *may* take a hit (only if you assume that the housing values are influenced by the MS. I would argue that housing values are mainly affected by the HS pyramid -- which will not change).

So, no. I do not agree that Falls Church pyramid familes/kids at LJ will be "hurt" by this move. Only their egos. But the underlying skill sets/achievements will be the same.

Again, just about everything you assert here is contradicted by social science research, including research previously reviewed and cited by FCPS, which finds that student achievement starts to decline across the board when the poverty rates creep much above 40-45%.

There are lots of split feeders in FCPS. Jackson has been a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton for years, just as Thoreau has been a split feeder to Madison and Marshall. Turning Jackson exclusively into a Falls Church feeder and Thoreau into a three-way split feeder to Madison, Marshall, and Oakton makes no sense, especially when it will drive up poverty levels at Jackson and FCPS could explore other options that would leave Jackson a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton. It is an accommodation to Oakton/Vienna families who simply want to see their own real estate values increase, even if it's due to the resegregation of a middle school that, ironically, was originally built as a segregated high school for AAs.

I'm not asserting anything! I'm just looking directly at the passrates at LJMS (which has the supposedly higher income kids from OHS and JMHS) and the passrates at Falls Church HS (as they are TODAY). Falls Church HS is, in fact, the group of kids coming from LJMS without the OHS and JMHS kids. So, Falls Church HS scores are a very good indicator of what the scores will be like at LJMS after rezoning. I'm just pointing out what those very kids who came from LJMS are doing in HS on their tests. I'm looking at the data that exists right now -- the data that directly shows what 9th-12th graders who come out of LJMS are doing on the SOLs after spending 7-8th grades with a slightly higher SES peer group. They perform pretty much the same in MS as they do in HS (even though you seem to think the MS peer group with the OHS and JMHS kids in the mix is better and has a positive impact).

Yet again, you don’t know what you’re talking about. FCHS is not just Jackson without Oakton/Madison kids. There are also some Marshall-zoned kids at Jackson, and a significant number of students from Poe also go to Falls Church. You don’t have access to any data set that would allow you to isolate this group of students and draw the inferences you wish to make.

Anonymous wrote:It might benefit from some more Asians, but it's also a very wealthy school and could use some diversity of income.

And they will get that from this rezoning. MWES is a very diverse school with a substantial FARMS rate (probably at least 35%). The AAP center part of MWES hides the true farms rate of the population that goes to LJMS (i.e. the base school).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't "hurt" them. It's just reveals what they actually are at the ms level (to some extent).

It may "hurt" the image of LJ. But the image was false up to this point if anyone was using LJ's reputation to assess the desirability of the pyramid.

The white and asian students at the MS are high performers (on SOLs) and that remains true at the HS level (even though their proportional representation in the schools change from MS to HS with the loss of the OHS and JMHS kids). They aren't "hurt" b/c they still have the same teachers and programs at the MS level.

The Great Schools rating may take a hit. Housing values *may* take a hit (only if you assume that the housing values are influenced by the MS. I would argue that housing values are mainly affected by the HS pyramid -- which will not change).

So, no. I do not agree that Falls Church pyramid familes/kids at LJ will be "hurt" by this move. Only their egos. But the underlying skill sets/achievements will be the same.

Again, just about everything you assert here is contradicted by social science research, including research previously reviewed and cited by FCPS, which finds that student achievement starts to decline across the board when the poverty rates creep much above 40-45%.

There are lots of split feeders in FCPS. Jackson has been a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton for years, just as Thoreau has been a split feeder to Madison and Marshall. Turning Jackson exclusively into a Falls Church feeder and Thoreau into a three-way split feeder to Madison, Marshall, and Oakton makes no sense, especially when it will drive up poverty levels at Jackson and FCPS could explore other options that would leave Jackson a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton. It is an accommodation to Oakton/Vienna families who simply want to see their own real estate values increase, even if it's due to the resegregation of a middle school that, ironically, was originally built as a segregated high school for AAs.

I'm not asserting anything! I'm just looking directly at the passrates at LJMS (which has the supposedly higher income kids from OHS and JMHS) and the passrates at Falls Church HS (as they are TODAY). Falls Church HS is, in fact, the group of kids coming from LJMS without the OHS and JMHS kids. So, Falls Church HS scores are a very good indicator of what the scores will be like at LJMS after rezoning. I'm just pointing out what those very kids who came from LJMS are doing in HS on their tests. I'm looking at the data that exists right now -- the data that directly shows what 9th-12th graders who come out of LJMS are doing on the SOLs after spending 7-8th grades with a slightly higher SES peer group. They perform pretty much the same in MS as they do in HS (even though you seem to think the MS peer group with the OHS and JMHS kids in the mix is better and has a positive impact).

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't "hurt" them. It's just reveals what they actually are at the ms level (to some extent).

It may "hurt" the image of LJ. But the image was false up to this point if anyone was using LJ's reputation to assess the desirability of the pyramid.

The white and asian students at the MS are high performers (on SOLs) and that remains true at the HS level (even though their proportional representation in the schools change from MS to HS with the loss of the OHS and JMHS kids). They aren't "hurt" b/c they still have the same teachers and programs at the MS level.

The Great Schools rating may take a hit. Housing values *may* take a hit (only if you assume that the housing values are influenced by the MS. I would argue that housing values are mainly affected by the HS pyramid -- which will not change).

So, no. I do not agree that Falls Church pyramid familes/kids at LJ will be "hurt" by this move. Only their egos. But the underlying skill sets/achievements will be the same.

Again, just about everything you assert here is contradicted by social science research, including research previously reviewed and cited by FCPS, which finds that student achievement starts to decline across the board when the poverty rates creep much above 40-45%.

There are lots of split feeders in FCPS. Jackson has been a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton for years, just as Thoreau has been a split feeder to Madison and Marshall. Turning Jackson exclusively into a Falls Church feeder and Thoreau into a three-way split feeder to Madison, Marshall, and Oakton makes no sense, especially when it will drive up poverty levels at Jackson and FCPS could explore other options that would leave Jackson a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton. It is an accommodation to Oakton/Vienna families who simply want to see their own real estate values increase, even if it's due to the resegregation of a middle school that, ironically, was originally built as a segregated high school for AAs.

In what document of research did FCPS find student achievement starts to decline at rates of 40-45%?

It might benefit from some more Asians, but it's also a very wealthy school and could use some diversity of income.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't "hurt" them. It's just reveals what they actually are at the ms level (to some extent).

It may "hurt" the image of LJ. But the image was false up to this point if anyone was using LJ's reputation to assess the desirability of the pyramid.

The white and asian students at the MS are high performers (on SOLs) and that remains true at the HS level (even though their proportional representation in the schools change from MS to HS with the loss of the OHS and JMHS kids). They aren't "hurt" b/c they still have the same teachers and programs at the MS level.

The Great Schools rating may take a hit. Housing values *may* take a hit (only if you assume that the housing values are influenced by the MS. I would argue that housing values are mainly affected by the HS pyramid -- which will not change).

So, no. I do not agree that Falls Church pyramid familes/kids at LJ will be "hurt" by this move. Only their egos. But the underlying skill sets/achievements will be the same.

Again, just about everything you assert here is contradicted by social science research, including research previously reviewed and cited by FCPS, which finds that student achievement starts to decline across the board when the poverty rates creep much above 40-45%.

There are lots of split feeders in FCPS. Jackson has been a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton for years, just as Thoreau has been a split feeder to Madison and Marshall. Turning Jackson exclusively into a Falls Church feeder and Thoreau into a three-way split feeder to Madison, Marshall, and Oakton makes no sense, especially when it will drive up poverty levels at Jackson and FCPS could explore other options that would leave Jackson a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton. It is an accommodation to Oakton/Vienna families who simply want to see their own real estate values increase, even if it's due to the resegregation of a middle school that, ironically, was originally built as a segregated high school for AAs.

I was wondering why the middle schools were so close to each other. That is so interesting. Thoreau is SO WHITE! It really needs some racial and class diversity.

It needs to become an AAP center. Will get filled with Asians in a minute!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't "hurt" them. It's just reveals what they actually are at the ms level (to some extent).

It may "hurt" the image of LJ. But the image was false up to this point if anyone was using LJ's reputation to assess the desirability of the pyramid.

The white and asian students at the MS are high performers (on SOLs) and that remains true at the HS level (even though their proportional representation in the schools change from MS to HS with the loss of the OHS and JMHS kids). They aren't "hurt" b/c they still have the same teachers and programs at the MS level.

The Great Schools rating may take a hit. Housing values *may* take a hit (only if you assume that the housing values are influenced by the MS. I would argue that housing values are mainly affected by the HS pyramid -- which will not change).

So, no. I do not agree that Falls Church pyramid familes/kids at LJ will be "hurt" by this move. Only their egos. But the underlying skill sets/achievements will be the same.

Again, just about everything you assert here is contradicted by social science research, including research previously reviewed and cited by FCPS, which finds that student achievement starts to decline across the board when the poverty rates creep much above 40-45%.

There are lots of split feeders in FCPS. Jackson has been a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton for years, just as Thoreau has been a split feeder to Madison and Marshall. Turning Jackson exclusively into a Falls Church feeder and Thoreau into a three-way split feeder to Madison, Marshall, and Oakton makes no sense, especially when it will drive up poverty levels at Jackson and FCPS could explore other options that would leave Jackson a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton. It is an accommodation to Oakton/Vienna families who simply want to see their own real estate values increase, even if it's due to the resegregation of a middle school that, ironically, was originally built as a segregated high school for AAs.

I was wondering why the middle schools were so close to each other. That is so interesting. Thoreau is SO WHITE! It really needs some racial and class diversity.

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't "hurt" them. It's just reveals what they actually are at the ms level (to some extent).

It may "hurt" the image of LJ. But the image was false up to this point if anyone was using LJ's reputation to assess the desirability of the pyramid.

The white and asian students at the MS are high performers (on SOLs) and that remains true at the HS level (even though their proportional representation in the schools change from MS to HS with the loss of the OHS and JMHS kids). They aren't "hurt" b/c they still have the same teachers and programs at the MS level.

The Great Schools rating may take a hit. Housing values *may* take a hit (only if you assume that the housing values are influenced by the MS. I would argue that housing values are mainly affected by the HS pyramid -- which will not change).

So, no. I do not agree that Falls Church pyramid familes/kids at LJ will be "hurt" by this move. Only their egos. But the underlying skill sets/achievements will be the same.

Look at Poe vs. Jackson currently. Poe is GS 2 for low-income kids, black kids and Hispanic kids. Jackson is GS 3 for low-income kids, GS 4 for black kids, and GS 3 for Hispanic kids.

For people like you such differences are immaterial, because you think your own kids are so much better and shouldn't have to "prop up" others. But for low-income and minority kids, these differences do matter, and yet FCPS wants to turn Jackson into another Poe.

Anonymous wrote:It doesn't "hurt" them. It's just reveals what they actually are at the ms level (to some extent).

It may "hurt" the image of LJ. But the image was false up to this point if anyone was using LJ's reputation to assess the desirability of the pyramid.

The white and asian students at the MS are high performers (on SOLs) and that remains true at the HS level (even though their proportional representation in the schools change from MS to HS with the loss of the OHS and JMHS kids). They aren't "hurt" b/c they still have the same teachers and programs at the MS level.

The Great Schools rating may take a hit. Housing values *may* take a hit (only if you assume that the housing values are influenced by the MS. I would argue that housing values are mainly affected by the HS pyramid -- which will not change).

So, no. I do not agree that Falls Church pyramid familes/kids at LJ will be "hurt" by this move. Only their egos. But the underlying skill sets/achievements will be the same.

Again, just about everything you assert here is contradicted by social science research, including research previously reviewed and cited by FCPS, which finds that student achievement starts to decline across the board when the poverty rates creep much above 40-45%.

There are lots of split feeders in FCPS. Jackson has been a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton for years, just as Thoreau has been a split feeder to Madison and Marshall. Turning Jackson exclusively into a Falls Church feeder and Thoreau into a three-way split feeder to Madison, Marshall, and Oakton makes no sense, especially when it will drive up poverty levels at Jackson and FCPS could explore other options that would leave Jackson a split feeder to both Falls Church and Oakton. It is an accommodation to Oakton/Vienna families who simply want to see their own real estate values increase, even if it's due to the resegregation of a middle school that, ironically, was originally built as a segregated high school for AAs.

It doesn't "hurt" them. It's just reveals what they actually are at the ms level (to some extent).

It may "hurt" the image of LJ. But the image was false up to this point if anyone was using LJ's reputation to assess the desirability of the pyramid.

The white and asian students at the MS are high performers (on SOLs) and that remains true at the HS level (even though their proportional representation in the schools change from MS to HS with the loss of the OHS and JMHS kids). They aren't "hurt" b/c they still have the same teachers and programs at the MS level.

The Great Schools rating may take a hit. Housing values *may* take a hit (only if you assume that the housing values are influenced by the MS. I would argue that housing values are mainly affected by the HS pyramid -- which will not change).

So, no. I do not agree that Falls Church pyramid familes/kids at LJ will be "hurt" by this move. Only their egos. But the underlying skill sets/achievements will be the same.

Anonymous wrote:News flash --- Falls Church HS is not a sought-after HS. It's not surprising that the MS feeding into it would be similar in terms of achievement and demographics.

Are you as worked up about Falls Church HS as you are about Jackson MS? B/c that's where you're kids are headed, right? Shouldn't you be advocating for re-zoning Falls Church as well? The part of LJMS that you find unacceptable IS the same grouping that IS Falls Church HS.

Are you (FCHS pyramid residents) really demanding that you have a better MS mix than your HS? Or were you planning to send your kid to parochial/private for HS? Why so worked up about the MS (which is still going to be propped up by having the AAP center) when the HS is exactly the same situation?

Actually, the Falls Church HS pyramid was seeing an influx of middle-class and upper middle-class students (for example, about 1000 non-FARMS kids in 2017-18 vs. about 650 in 2007-08. Compare that to the Annandale pyramid, where FCPS pulled out single-family neighborhoods (by your logic, because the kids at some of those schools were riding on the coattails of their peers already zoned for Lake Braddock and Woodson), and the number of white and non-FARMS students declined by hundreds of students over a relatively short period of time.

What you fail to acknowledge is that people pay very close attention to the signal that FCPS sends when it takes schools that are already diverse and starts to strip out students from higher-income families. People see the greater concentration of poverty that results directly from such decisions as a sign that FCPS has an attitude of benign neglect towards those schools, and they react accordingly. Again, the situation at Poe and Annandale - from which FCPS has much to learn - demonstrates this quite convincingly.

As for the AAP center at Jackson, it will downsize significantly in the coming years if this proposal is approved. It will leave Thoreau with a significantly larger population of in-boundary students than Jackson, and more of the AAP-eligible students at Thoreau will decide to stay there and do LLIV. It will play out very differently than would be the case if, for example, Thoreau had similar demographics to Jackson and/or was not providing LLIV services.

Anonymous wrote:Falls Church HS = "4" for academics (no shame -- it's not the only one in FCPS).

Jackson MS = "7" for academics (it's the AAP center and, possibly, the Oakton pyramid kids propping the scores up at LJ).

The scores at LJ after the rezoning will probably match the Falls Church HS scores (with a bump from the AAP center).

It's not a high performing area.... does that mean FCPS has to rig the MS to make it look like it is higher than it really is? Apparently, to date, the FC pyramid kids aren't really getting that much out of having peers from Oakton pyramid in MS. When the FC crowd gets to HS, they still have the same issues they always had. Their higher income MS peers (at LJ under current conditions) didn't turn them into stellar students. The only thing that will happen is that LJ's test scores will better reflect the academic achievement of Falls Church pyramid. It's not a change so much as it is the truth coming to light about kids in the Falls Church pyramid.

According to One Fairfax, yes they do. You've already proven the point of the people arguing that this move will hurt LJ and in turn Falls Church High.