Anonymous wrote:I totally disagree with the idea that kids need to see you fight and disagree that the benefit from it.

It's BS made up by aults without any self control and who are totally self absorbed.

My parents believed in that crap and I got nothing from it but feeling tensed and stressed. Feelings I can't shake even today and I believe has led me to be conflict adverse.

+1. I think it's more important to have a united front for the kids and give them a sense of security. I don't think other people, unless they are a trained therapist or marriage counselor, should be in the middle of your marriage as you are trying to work something out. Why do you need a witness? When your are older and start dating etc you can give general relationship advice and talk in general how you have disagreements in a marraiage and have to communicate etc. When I think of healthy behaviors I want my kids to see, I think in general of how we treat each other. If my DH is constantly berating me, putting me town, never talking to me your me, yelling at me etc, my daughters may think when they are dating that it's okay for a guy to treat them that way.

IMHO, communicating that you need a cool down period, taking it, then being ready to talk about it later that day is okay. The reason I would be upset with the way it was handled is because it left me on my own with two young kids at a restaurant where I might have chosen a different venue if I knew I knew ahead of time I would be on my own with them - like the mall food court or lunch at home. I think it's fair to bring up if you need a cooling off period and we are with the kids, give me the option to step away while you stay with the kids, take the kids wth you, or if not practicable, at a later date soon after take them on your own somewhere so they get that makeup time with you and I get a break. I also think you should also take a step back and not try to hash out things in front of the children. If you both can agree to those ground rules I think you will be okay.

Anonymous wrote:
Op here. Obviously it would be immature to start a fight on purpose in order to make a point to the kids but that is not at all what happened here.

OP, I used to be a conflict resolution consultant so I've thought about conflict a bit; maybe this post will help.

I get that you are trying to model for your kids a good conflict resolution process, and I admire you for this forethought and attempt.

However; imo this situation is not the one to model for your kids based on two points you mention:

First, you say this is a recurring conflict that you both have not been able to resolve. So the likelihood that you will finally resolve it in public--and in front of kids--is near 0%.

Therefore, this is a poor issue to use for teaching/modeling a successful conflict resolution process. This particular conflict should be worked on out of earshot of the kids, unless it is so minor that it can proceed to the "ok, we agree to disagree" in good humor. (so; teaching the kids a different lesson, that you can't always resolve it in the moment, or maybe ever, but it's ok). Doesn't sound like this conflict fits that criteria.

Second, one can't model a good conflict resolution process if one of the parties cannot model it. Your DH walked away because either he had the meta-view that this conflict would not be resolved and thus not be good modeling for the kids, and/or he could not participate in a constructive way as his emotions were too engaged.

For whatever reason above that he walked away, it was a good call.

From what you say in your OP, you are putting symbolic intent to his action of walking away. He says he walked because he couldn't handle it. You are going further and saying his walking away is symbolic of (shoot, I'd have to go back and read your OP)....Ok I can't remember the language but my point is that you are injecting symbolism into his actions which sounds unfounded.

In general, I think many women often infuse men's actions with symbolic meaning, because *if they were to do the same behavior*, it would have symbolic meaning. But (generally speaking) men aren't behaving as symbolically as women; they are pretty straightforward--they don't tend to have the nuance. If your DH said he walked away because he was getting too hot-headed, that sounds right, and there's no symbolic overlay of him walking away because he is abandoning the family, etc. That is sort of a typical female construction. So for example, if your sister walked away, you may have a case.

I have found in my own marriage (I know, n=1, but hear me out) that the less symbolism I attach to my DH's behavior, the happier I am and the more we get along. To be crass about it, men are pretty simple, like dogs. Feed them, love them.

Now how men are not like dogs is that they can think in complex ways, like about chemistry or philosophy, but (in general) this particular complexity of symbolic thought and behavior is not their forte.

To quote a famous negotiator..."To change someone's mind, you have to first know where their mind is." So OP, try and get into your DH's head so you can speak the same language. He is not thinking symbolically. He is also telling you that. It sounds like he is telling the truth.

When I was a younger and still trying to find my way as a wife, my mother used to tell me that in some situations you have to choose - you can either be right or you can resolve the issue. Sometimes we get so caught up in being right and feeling validated and vindicated, that you lose sight of the bigger picture. OP, you may very well be right on the chore allocation issue, but it is not going to be resolved the way you are handling it. You need to take a step back how you can get your DH to step up more without "reheating the same old leftovers." Your way is not working - try something else.

Anonymous wrote:
OP here. I felt like he started it and he felt like I started it. I sort of wish we had it on video so we could review it and see how it actually developed--it's very hard to reconstruct objectively after the fact when both people are feeling wronged.

There is never just one person who starts an argument. It always take two people. I suppose people might try to pick a fight, but I guess this isn't the case here.

Sometimes things I do trigger my husband, and I'm not cognizent of it, and he reacts. To me it feels as if he went off the handle for no reason, for him it feels as if I instigated. Makes sense? Look at your own behavior and see what it is YOU can change to get out of this pattern of fighting.

DH does this. It used to really upset me. But after many years I see he needs a "cool off" period. I'm sorry I didn't respect his wishes earlier. Not everyone wants to hash things out immediately and publicly either.

OP here. I felt like he started it and he felt like I started it. I sort of wish we had it on video so we could review it and see how it actually developed--it's very hard to reconstruct objectively after the fact when both people are feeling wronged.

OP, this is telling (and I've been exactly where you are, with the above thought). I think you guys are stuck in a bad pattern about who is right, whose needs come first, who is being heard/not heard, etc. I suspect you're somewhat controlling, although you might go to great lengths to deny that. Think your DH is probably very sensitive to perceived criticism, too but I have less to go on there.

anyway: this is the thing. You're both stuck--stuck in this stupid fight, stuck in the unresolved nature of it, stuck in how you unproductively deal with it. Its a pattern in which neither of you feel heard or valued. You are resentful, and make what your DH thinks are angry accusations--he shuts down at your anger and criticism, you feel unheard and continue to carp. You both feel wronged in this relationship, and there is truly no point in trying to figure out "who was right" in this situation. This is not black and white, it is about how each of you feels unvalued, unheard, unappreciated, etc.

I will wager this: you feel unheard when you express that you feel you shoulder too much of the burden--in fact, by focusing on your anger, your DH avoids that responsibility. But your DH feels unheard too--he wants to be able to engage without constant anger and criticism. The fact that you say that there should be room for both of you to have your feelings, but then you interpret his walking away calmly from the argument, with no ill effects on you or your kids, as invalid belies that. The fact that you equated his walking away from an argument calmly as a sign that he is going to abandon your family also says that you believe, deep down, that there's only one way to have and handle emotions, and that is your way. To me, the fact that he walked away would be an indication that he really could not tolerate the way that the two of you fight this recurrent fight, and he wanted to stop it and try something else. this is a sign that he, at least, sees how unproductive the fighting is. You may take it as abandonment or in the very least avoidance of the issue. Neither of you is right, or wrong, in any black and white way, but the focus on who is right or wrong here is a sign of bigger problems. For example: your defense of fighting in front the kids is a defense that you think is valid (fighting is a good thing if we can resolve it peacefully) but his walking away to take a break is a defense (fighting a stupid fight in front of kids is not good, better to engage later) is invalid for you.


Counseling, the right counseling, can do wonders, but only if you can drop your defensive mechanisms and truly listen to what your husband is trying to tel you about the way you talk to him and treat him. Listening to him and accepting that does not invalidate your own feelings at all--but I think you're operating under the assumption that if he's right then you're wrong, and vice versa. I think you're way too hung up on this right/wrong dynamic and it is definitely not good for the health of your marriage. The fact that you wish you had a video to prove who 'started it' is in itself kind of pointless. You both engaged, until he walked away.

Resentment over household chores with two young kids can be very, very draining and stressful. DH and I went through a very similar dynamic. But when we went to counseling, we learned not how to divvy up chores, etc, we learned to communicate and to get out of these patterns, I don't think either one of us realized how much resentment and avoidance we brought into our daily interactions or how much general tension there was, even if we didn't fight. Counseling for us required us to really examine our own acts and speech and not be reactive so much as empathetic. For me, learning that if I validated Dh's feelings, it didn't invalidate my own conflicting ones, was huge. It allowed me to see that I could be empathetic,andnot critical, without 'giving in'--that there was room for both of us to be right in how we felt, which allowed us to work more productively as a team to solve our differences.

So I suggest that you put aside the specifics of who is right/wrong, who is doing more, etc. Not that this isn't relevant, but until you actually learn to hear and validate each other's feelings then you can't solve the logistical issues. And once there is trust and acceptance established, then its more likely they will be resolved without conflict.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are making a huge leap with your last post which still seems very over dramatic. Dude, just because he doesn't want to deal with your household chore BS over a kiddie lunch and walks away doesn't mean he's going to walk away for good. Please get a grip!! (And before you go off on your rant about misogyny, I am a woman.)

You're excusing his behavior. Adults "deal" with things in an adult manner, which this was not.

Adults don't bring up topics that are known to cause a fight, at lunch, in front of the kids, because "it's good for kids to see their parents fight and move on."

Op here. Obviously it would be immature to start a fight on purpose in order to make a point to the kids but that is not at all what happened here.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You are making a huge leap with your last post which still seems very over dramatic. Dude, just because he doesn't want to deal with your household chore BS over a kiddie lunch and walks away doesn't mean he's going to walk away for good. Please get a grip!! (And before you go off on your rant about misogyny, I am a woman.)

You're excusing his behavior. Adults "deal" with things in an adult manner, which this was not.

Adults don't bring up topics that are known to cause a fight, at lunch, in front of the kids, because "it's good for kids to see their parents fight and move on."

+1