Anonymous
Post 05/29/2016 19:39     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Yes some people who didn't like my nieces behavior would say, "she's quite bossy isn't she". Others who found it amusing called her the future POTUS, a leader, etc. it's basically being rude and trying to control others behavior and it may be cute at 5 but it's not cute at 8 on. I think it was a sign of low self esteem to be honest. Also I guessed her parents were quite hard on her or they thought she was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Mixed messages. They also fought a lot and didn't have a loving kind relationship themselves. And they were very judge mental of others and I think that rubbed off on her. From probably 3rd grade on the girls started to exclude her and be mean and she stopped getting invited to things and it was really sad. I was sad for my brother too. Her behavior could be really embarrassing for them at times and then when she was excluded when she was older it was too late to do anything about it. You can't really go back and say to a 10 year old girl, hey you don't have any friends because you are mean to everyone. That can really do a number on them. Her self esteem was shot, and it was probably low to begin with if she needed to tell everyone what to do.


I was with you until this point.

OF COURSE you can go back to a 10 year old and help her take a new look at her behavior and it's impact on others.

OF COURSE you can help a 10 year old learn to be empathetic, kind, patient and a good friend.

You didn't read my comments thoroughly. I said in a previous post that she is an adult now and is a lovely person. But it was a hard road. she got sober young, at 23, was able to learn new behavior that led to self love. Glad she didn't have continue unhappily for decades. Happy ending to story but as I said, there were many unhappy years in her youth.

Kids (and adults) are way more resilient than you seem to think.

To think an unhappy and mean 10 year old is ruined for life and doomed to misery is nuts. Writing her off like that is perhaps one of the meanest things of all in my book.

Now, on the practical side, YES, of course it might not have been easy. Maybe it would have required her parents to pull their own $hit together and help her learn to be more kind and to behave in more kind ways. They could have done this in party by consistently modeling the necessary positive behavior (and the positive transformation) themselves in their interactions with her and with the world more generally. Kids learn first from their parents.

But it does not seem like that happened from what you said. So another option for her parents could have been to get her good professional help, which they apparently did not do.

Either way, I think it is insane to think a 10 year old has lost the opportunity to develop healthy and positive self esteem and a better way of interacting with others.

I think it's equally insane to think an ADULT has lost this opportunity!

FWIW, I've seen quite a few friends and colleagues pull themselves out of this particular ditch (low self esteem --> anti social behavior --> isolation --> depression --> low self esteem) well into their 20s, 30, and 40s. I've grown quite a bit in this area, as well, starting slowly in college and changing more dramatically in my early 30s.

In my experience, we are all capable of emotional growth at any age. It can be VERY hard work, depending on where we are when we start and what kind of support we find. But if our family of origin (parents) failed to step in earlier to help, there are still plenty of other influences that can -- therapists and support groups among them. It's not always quick or easy. But it's possible.

Just one example: My good friend of 20 years turned her life around 180 degrees 2 years ago. In part because she was finally ready to deal with her problems, and in part as a result of the personal support and psychological resources she found through AA. Not only did she stop drinking and otherwise self-medicating, she also discovered kindness and generosity within her that she never knew was there. As a friend, I always saw it in her underneath the drama (and the sometimes cringe-worthy behavior). But now it's more at the surface and her behavior is consistently kinder and more generous day in and day out. Yes, she still struggles. But the transformation is amazing. She managed to make a huge leap forward in her mid-40s. Better late than never, right?

So, please don't write off your niece. Don't assume that it's "too late" for her -- or anyone else you care about. Be there for anyone who wants to make a real change and is willing to do the hard work to get there. As the saying goes, where there's a will, there's a way.
Anonymous
Post 05/29/2016 18:03     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Anonymous wrote:Yes some people who didn't like my nieces behavior would say, "she's quite bossy isn't she". Others who found it amusing called her the future POTUS, a leader, etc. it's basically being rude and trying to control others behavior and it may be cute at 5 but it's not cute at 8 on. I think it was a sign of low self esteem to be honest. Also I guessed her parents were quite hard on her or they thought she was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Mixed messages. They also fought a lot and didn't have a loving kind relationship themselves. And they were very judge mental of others and I think that rubbed off on her. From probably 3rd grade on the girls started to exclude her and be mean and she stopped getting invited to things and it was really sad. I was sad for my brother too. Her behavior could be really embarrassing for them at times and then when she was excluded when she was older it was too late to do anything about it. You can't really go back and say to a 10 year old girl, hey you don't have any friends because you are mean to everyone. That can really do a number on them. Her self esteem was shot, and it was probably low to begin with if she needed to tell everyone what to do.


I was with you until this point.

OF COURSE you can go back to a 10 year old and help her take a new look at her behavior and it's impact on others.

OF COURSE you can help a 10 year old learn to be empathetic, kind, patient and a good friend.

Kids (and adults) are way more resilient than you seem to think.

To think an unhappy and mean 10 year old is ruined for life and doomed to misery is nuts. Writing her off like that is perhaps one of the meanest things of all in my book.

Now, on the practical side, YES, of course it might not have been easy. Maybe it would have required her parents to pull their own $hit together and help her learn to be more kind and to behave in more kind ways. They could have done this in party by consistently modeling the necessary positive behavior (and the positive transformation) themselves in their interactions with her and with the world more generally. Kids learn first from their parents.

But it does not seem like that happened from what you said. So another option for her parents could have been to get her good professional help, which they apparently did not do.

Either way, I think it is insane to think a 10 year old has lost the opportunity to develop healthy and positive self esteem and a better way of interacting with others.

I think it's equally insane to think an ADULT has lost this opportunity!

FWIW, I've seen quite a few friends and colleagues pull themselves out of this particular ditch (low self esteem --> anti social behavior --> isolation --> depression --> low self esteem) well into their 20s, 30, and 40s. I've grown quite a bit in this area, as well, starting slowly in college and changing more dramatically in my early 30s.

In my experience, we are all capable of emotional growth at any age. It can be VERY hard work, depending on where we are when we start and what kind of support we find. But if our family of origin (parents) failed to step in earlier to help, there are still plenty of other influences that can -- therapists and support groups among them. It's not always quick or easy. But it's possible.

Just one example: My good friend of 20 years turned her life around 180 degrees 2 years ago. In part because she was finally ready to deal with her problems, and in part as a result of the personal support and psychological resources she found through AA. Not only did she stop drinking and otherwise self-medicating, she also discovered kindness and generosity within her that she never knew was there. As a friend, I always saw it in her underneath the drama (and the sometimes cringe-worthy behavior). But now it's more at the surface and her behavior is consistently kinder and more generous day in and day out. Yes, she still struggles. But the transformation is amazing. She managed to make a huge leap forward in her mid-40s. Better late than never, right?

So, please don't write off your niece. Don't assume that it's "too late" for her -- or anyone else you care about. Be there for anyone who wants to make a real change and is willing to do the hard work to get there. As the saying goes, where there's a will, there's a way.
Anonymous
Post 05/29/2016 17:58     Subject: Re:What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:If she is pretty, she will meet someone fabulous one day.
If she is average or below in looks, it will be a tough road for her.



Yep. It's really held Hillary Clinton, Ruth Bader Ginsberg, Madeline Albright, Condi Rice, Amy Schumer, Tammy Duckworth, Elizabeth Warren, Loretta Lynch, Michelle Obama, Sheryl Sandberg, Barbara Walters, Barbara Streisand, and Margaret Cho back.



If anything, it seems like bright, bossy girls only succeed if they AREN'T pretty.


Marissa Mayer is pretty.
Anonymous
Post 05/29/2016 17:44     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
I think bossy girls are not liked by peers and have hard time making friends. There is a girl like this in my child's class who likes to tell everyone what to do. Unfortunately, nobody wants to play with her or sit with her during lunch. She does not lead her peers, she just likes to tell them what to do. There is another girl who was voted by the kids to be a class representative to the student council not her. My child tells me that the girl really wants to make friends, but she does not know how to be nice or listen or compromise.
Anonymous
Post 05/29/2016 16:00     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
And my sister in law would say "well if she were a boy no one would be calling her bossy". But the fact is if she were a boy and was always telling friends what they would play and how they should play it, friends would eventually not want to be around a boy like that. At age 5 you should treat kids to be kind, the golden rule, and model that behavior for them. They can become cut throat cynics when they are teens but at least their formative years will be happier and better spent
Anonymous
Post 05/29/2016 15:56     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Yes some people who didn't like my nieces behavior would say, "she's quite bossy isn't she". Others who found it amusing called her the future POTUS, a leader, etc. it's basically being rude and trying to control others behavior and it may be cute at 5 but it's not cute at 8 on. I think it was a sign of low self esteem to be honest. Also I guessed her parents were quite hard on her or they thought she was the greatest thing since sliced bread. Mixed messages. They also fought a lot and didn't have a loving kind relationship themselves. And they were very judge mental of others and I think that rubbed off on her. From probably 3rd grade on the girls started to exclude her and be mean and she stopped getting invited to things and it was really sad. I was sad for my brother too. Her behavior could be really embarrassing for them at times and then when she was excluded when she was older it was too late to do anything about it. You can't really go back and say to a 10 year old girl, hey you don't have any friends because you are mean to everyone. That can really do a number on them. Her self esteem was shot, and it was probably low to begin with if she needed to tell everyone what to do.
Anonymous
Post 05/29/2016 15:44     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Anonymous wrote:My niece was bossy as a 5 year old. My brother was also told she was going to POTUS with her personality. By 8 she had 1 friend left who would play with her. By 14 she was giving boys BJs for attention. Alcohol problems in high school. Rehab in college. She's lovely now but I wish they had taught her at a young age that she couldn't boss other kids around. That it wasn't nice or kind. She would have had more friends and better self esteem.

she also was a beautiful little girl who got a lot of attention from strangers when she was young and my sister in law loved it. Thought she was "special". She didn't stay beautiful. Food issues came with the low self esteem. And in my experience beautiful child does not translate into beautiful teen or adult by the way, so OP don't be banking on her looks to get her anywhere. There's no guarantee.

You and your situation remind me of my sister in law and my niece and I hope someone close to you has the courage to tell you to reign your kid in before it's too late. If you teach her to treat people the way she wants to be treated and start right now with disciplining her when she is bossy to her friends in your presence she may have a chance. If you continue to let her boss people around she could turn out to be POTUS, or she could end up like my niece. Do you want take that chance?


I think you're hitting the key point here, PP.

It's not about being "bossy" or not.

The previous nine pages of posts tell me that "bossy" is a word that has different meanings, interpretations and connotations to different people. Some think it's a good thing and a precursor to leadership. Some think it's a bad thing and a precursor to isolation and low self-esteem. It's not a universally agreed-upon term.

Even so, I think we're all saying pretty much the same thing: It is NOT ok for a child to be intentionally hurtful or unkind to his or her peers. This includes the type of argumentative and controlling behavior OP described in her follow up post. A child who is allowed to behave this way with his or her peers is going to have a very difficult road ahead. It's something to address now, before it gets to be a habit.

Along the way, please drop the word "bossy". The term is obviously a distraction. Just focus on stopping the problematic behavior (The stuff OP described earlier -- "NO! You can't color Elsa's dress red! It has to be blue! NO! You can't play that. Only Larla can do it." "NO! You're not doing it right! You have to do it like THIS!")

Focus much more directly on teaching her (or HIM, for those with boys who are similarly controlling and aggressive with their peers) positive values to counterweight this behavior: values like empathy, patience, kindness, flexibility, humility and curiosity. Otherwise you're setting your child up to be emotionally disabled and perhaps isolated as he/she grows older.

Anonymous
Post 05/29/2016 07:44     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
My niece was bossy as a 5 year old. My brother was also told she was going to POTUS with her personality. By 8 she had 1 friend left who would play with her. By 14 she was giving boys BJs for attention. Alcohol problems in high school. Rehab in college. She's lovely now but I wish they had taught her at a young age that she couldn't boss other kids around. That it wasn't nice or kind. She would have had more friends and better self esteem.

she also was a beautiful little girl who got a lot of attention from strangers when she was young and my sister in law loved it. Thought she was "special". She didn't stay beautiful. Food issues came with the low self esteem. And in my experience beautiful child does not translate into beautiful teen or adult by the way, so OP don't be banking on her looks to get her anywhere. There's no guarantee.

You and your situation remind me of my sister in law and my niece and I hope someone close to you has the courage to tell you to reign your kid in before it's too late. If you teach her to treat people the way she wants to be treated and start right now with disciplining her when she is bossy to her friends in your presence she may have a chance. If you continue to let her boss people around she could turn out to be POTUS, or she could end up like my niece. Do you want take that chance?
Anonymous
Post 05/29/2016 07:13     Subject: Re:What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Just teach her empathy. She'll be fine.
Anonymous
Post 05/28/2016 23:38     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Anonymous wrote:Bossy isn't at all -- not even close -- to the same thing as being a leader.

It shouldn't matter if it is a girl or a boy, it's important to teach kids the value of empathy and cooperation and team work.

The best bosses I've had (and the most effective) weren't the ones with bossy personalities who thrived on power and control. They were the ones who understood how to motivate people and foster cooperation.

So I disagree with all of the "She's a future leader!" posters. If the child truly is bossy (in the negative sense of the word), then she's the future nightmare boss people come on DCUM to complain about.

OP, it sounds like you are hoping teachers and other people will discipline her. You are the parent. You don't have to crush her personality. Praise the good things (the kindness, the inquisitiveness), but work on the negative stuff you see emerging. Now is the time. She is still young.

I also will throw something out there. My experience growing up was that the really bossy kids were the kids who lacked confidence or a strong sense of self b/c their sense of self and confidence hinged on lording over other people. The problem is that people assumed because they were bossy, they were confident. Those things aren't the same thing. Kids and adults who are truly confident don't feel the need to boss other people around or control things so tightly. That need to boss comes from insecurity.


Yes. And/or anxiety, as I said in the PP.

These two things often go together, but not always. But by adulthood, they have a way of conflating into one.

My experience in the business world is that most inappropriately bossy and controlling behavior is actually an expression of anxiety. In some professions (BigLaw?), this even seems to be valued and promoted. Not explicitly. But de facto.
Anonymous
Post 05/28/2016 23:31     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:OP: thanks for all the feedback. Interesting how some things came up that I never thought were relevant (looks).

My daughter is actually very beautiful and I'm not just saying that as her mom. She's just genetically lucky in that regard and will probably end up to be a stunning adult. But again I am not sure that is relevant.

She is not a bossy jerk. If a child gets hurt on the playground, she is the first to run over to see how she can make them feel better. She really does care about others and can empathize.

I think it's more of an annoying bossiness. "Jane, you use the blue crayon to color Elsa while I color Anna's cape green." If Jane wants Elsa to be red today, that will not be acceptable and dd will not shut up until Jane is coloring Elsas cape in the most perfect frozen esque blue in the crayon box. Or if Jane wants to color her own picture of Cinderella...
Not happening. I've never really seen her get into a showdown with another child because she is so bossy that they all just listen.

At home, she does not run the show, but there are a lot of tears and a lot of screaming matches and dramatics and tantrums. But no- she does not run the show at home.. not for lack of trying though.


OP Take a parenting class.


I'm a big fan of strong and independent girls. The ones who are comfortable in their own skin and do their own thing. Even at age 5. Even if it's against the grain, and even if it's sometimes annoying or a bit distruptive, within limits.

But that is not what you're describing here, OP.

What you're describing is controlling behavior. And I get why you're concerned.

It sounds like your DD is overly focused on what other kids are doing. And she so disturbed by their choices that she's working like crazy to strong-arm them into doing what she wants.

The question is WHY.

Do you know why she does this?

Is it possible that she experiences serious discomfort or even anxiety when things are not exactly the way she envisons/wants/needs them to be?

Does she think she needs to force other people to do things her way so that everything can be "right"? Why is that? What does she think will happen if they do it their way? If they color the dress a different color than it "should" be? If they do something different than she predicted? What is it that worries/concerns her here?

I'm no child psychiatrist, but depending on what you think is driving her controlling behavior, you might want to keep your eye on anxiety in the coming years. Many people -- including kids -- are controlling because they feel tremendous anxiety about mistakes or even unpredictable situations or events. So they're driven to control everything and everyone, to the extent possible.

You might also want to take a look at the way you and DH are with her as parents. How often do you correct her for doing something "wrong"? And how often are those "wrong" things matters of interpretation? Or really just small things you could have let slide? Often kids who show overly controlling behavior are just modeling and replicating what they hear at home (or their 5 year old interpretation of it, which is likely more blunt and extreme than their parents' actual words.)

Again, this could all be a whole lot of nothing. To some degree this is age-appropriate behavior. Not necessarily typical or even common. And not particularly fun to be around. But of course, she's FIVE, not twenty five. This is what some five year olds do -- both girls and boys. And most of them continue to mature and grow out of their controlling behavior. Odds are, your DD will be among them. Still extroverted, but hopefully more able to channel her personality in a productive way.

P.S. To some of the PPs: this is not about "leadership". I'm all about feminism and strong women in business, politics, our families, communities and the world. But it's silly to extrapolote or predict the future of a five year old. The only type of "leadership" you might see at that age is a kid who leads by example -- other kids admire/respect her or him and want to follow his or her lead. What OP describes is exactly what she called it -- "controlling" and "bossy". That is not leadership at any age.


But again, that is no
Anonymous
Post 05/28/2016 18:36     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Bossy isn't at all -- not even close -- to the same thing as being a leader.

It shouldn't matter if it is a girl or a boy, it's important to teach kids the value of empathy and cooperation and team work.

The best bosses I've had (and the most effective) weren't the ones with bossy personalities who thrived on power and control. They were the ones who understood how to motivate people and foster cooperation.

So I disagree with all of the "She's a future leader!" posters. If the child truly is bossy (in the negative sense of the word), then she's the future nightmare boss people come on DCUM to complain about.

OP, it sounds like you are hoping teachers and other people will discipline her. You are the parent. You don't have to crush her personality. Praise the good things (the kindness, the inquisitiveness), but work on the negative stuff you see emerging. Now is the time. She is still young.

I also will throw something out there. My experience growing up was that the really bossy kids were the kids who lacked confidence or a strong sense of self b/c their sense of self and confidence hinged on lording over other people. The problem is that people assumed because they were bossy, they were confident. Those things aren't the same thing. Kids and adults who are truly confident don't feel the need to boss other people around or control things so tightly. That need to boss comes from insecurity.
Anonymous
Post 05/28/2016 16:26     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
My niece is like this. She only wants to play games if she gets to set the rules. She only wants to be the director of any plays or skits so she can tell people what to do. She has big tantrums if she doesn't get her way. Maybe we'll see her getting an Oscar someday.
Anonymous
Post 05/28/2016 08:57     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't know where she got this from (just kidding- dad and I both have strong personalities and are go-getter types) but over the last year or two, my 5 year old's personality has really emerged, for better or worse.

-Extremely extroverted and thrives on social interaction.
-Kind, but intensely competitive at the same time
-Bossy- very, very, very bossy
-Very bright
-Analytical in the kindergartener sense- thinks about the "why's" and the "how's" and tries to get around things, very quick to point out rules/policies/actions that don't make sense to her

I'm curious if anyone had a little girl like this and what they ended up to be like as an adolescent or young adult. I am not sure how to encourage the good while also shutting down the bad. I have Sheryl Sandberg in the back of my head, saying that we shouldn't refer to little girls as bossy.. but she really is bossy, and I'm afraid this is going to hurt her socially. I guess I'm just not sure what to expect as a parent. I know there are plenty of other kids with this personality type, I just don't know any of them personally.

Thanks.

They grow up to be academic superstars, convert their smarts into big law partnership, and bank fat stacks of cash while never again talking to the asshole, misogynistic parents who called them names like "bossy."

Or at least that's my story.


Sounds like a fairy tale.

My life is pretty great. Bossy women get it done.


Bossy woman must not have common sense - missing some sarcasm there.


Hi dummy. I didn't miss the sarcasm. I just don't give a shit. Stay jealous.


OP - be forewarned...


I was thinking the same thing. Here is your lovely 5yr old child in 30+ years. What a peach


NP. You guys are the bitchy girly girls OP's daughter is going to be firing in 30 years' time. Lame jerks always run in packs.

How do you women not get tired of being so catty and awful towards women who are living better lives than you? No one is hindering you from gossiping less and working more.

PP has done well for herself and isn't going to take any shit off jealous old bats. Good on her! I hope my daughter is like her.
Anonymous
Post 05/28/2016 00:32     Subject: What happens to extroverted, controlling, bossy little girls down the line?
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:I don't know where she got this from (just kidding- dad and I both have strong personalities and are go-getter types) but over the last year or two, my 5 year old's personality has really emerged, for better or worse.

-Extremely extroverted and thrives on social interaction.
-Kind, but intensely competitive at the same time
-Bossy- very, very, very bossy
-Very bright
-Analytical in the kindergartener sense- thinks about the "why's" and the "how's" and tries to get around things, very quick to point out rules/policies/actions that don't make sense to her

I'm curious if anyone had a little girl like this and what they ended up to be like as an adolescent or young adult. I am not sure how to encourage the good while also shutting down the bad. I have Sheryl Sandberg in the back of my head, saying that we shouldn't refer to little girls as bossy.. but she really is bossy, and I'm afraid this is going to hurt her socially. I guess I'm just not sure what to expect as a parent. I know there are plenty of other kids with this personality type, I just don't know any of them personally.

Thanks.

They grow up to be academic superstars, convert their smarts into big law partnership, and bank fat stacks of cash while never again talking to the asshole, misogynistic parents who called them names like "bossy."

Or at least that's my story.


Sounds like a fairy tale.

My life is pretty great. Bossy women get it done.


Bossy woman must not have common sense - missing some sarcasm there.


Hi dummy. I didn't miss the sarcasm. I just don't give a shit. Stay jealous.


OP - be forewarned...


I was thinking the same thing. Here is your lovely 5yr old child in 30+ years. What a peach