Honest question for Muslims who are secular. Let's say ISIS continues to grow over the next 50-100 years and Democratic countries fall under their control. Are you willing to live under a Sunni regime? Would you adapt or would you fight to keep your modern lifestyle?

I asked my husband last night if we should memorize a line or two from the Koran in case we were ever hostages like those in Mali. He rattled off something in Arabic (which impressed me because I didn't know he knew any Arabic.)

He laughed and said he said something on the lines of, "F**k you pig face. Your mother is a whore." Not going to win us any points with an armed gunman.

jsteele, you are an apologist for radical Islamic violence.

OP clearly did not unequivocally denounce the ISIS violence. She said she denounced "all violence" which completely undercuts her half-baked denunciation of the ISIS violence.

She then claimed she wasn't even aware of what ISIS-brand Islam stands for. Because she went to the mosque in Boston 35 years ago and gee it was peaceful back then.

That HAS to be a lie, doesn't it? Do you seriously believe OP, an Islamic person herself, isn't well aware of current radical Islam and that it is NOT what she evidently experienced 35 years ago in a Boston mosque?

And I never said, ever, that OP should have "backlash" (a completely undefined, vague term) or be "discriminated" against.

However--if she posts in an open forum, she is NOT immune from "criticism" of her viewpoints. Nor are you.

She, and you, are obviously apologists for radical Islamic terror that has been occurring recently. She, and you, obviously want to shut down criticism of that tacit apologism by hurling "racism" accusations at anyone who points out that you, and she, are apologists for the violence.

Which itself is a very common tactic of the apologists of the violence.

Anonymous wrote:You dont have to be afraid of it, because sadly it's already happening. I am disgusted, disgusted with our country.

I'm disgusted by radicals hijacking a peace loving religion. Our country has had enough. We can't police the world. Let Arab countries step up to the plate.

Anonymous wrote:jsteele, you will never be an effective debater of these sorts of topics if you insist on always using over the top, emotional, misleading rhetoric.

You didn't define what "backlash" means. You also are being extremely evasive. OP never denounced radical Islamic violence. Why would I demand that someone denounce radical Islamic violence? Well, if that person is complaining that they are afraid of receiving "backlash" because they haven't denounced the recent Islamic violence, then it seems it would make sense to find out whether they were willing to actually denounce it, wouldn't it? OP hasn't.

Is it OK with you, if I "criticize" OP for complaining about a hypothetical "backlash" (which she hasn't actually experienced) when she hasn't even bothered to denounce the Islamic violence which is at the root of it?

You see, jsteele, OP didn't denounce radical Islamic violence which occurred recently. She evaded the issue by claiming that's not the kind of Islam SHE was taught as a child in the Boston mosque 35 years ago. The inference being that it couldn't possibly be true that current radical Islamic doctrine is responsible for these violent acts.

"Criticism" of Muslims who want to shut down criticism of their failure to clearly renounce radical Islamic violence by claiming ignorance of it does support the violence, indirectly, as do your posts. If you feel that is unfair "backlash," then you're simply a progagandist.

Do you want me to denounce discrimination against Muslims? Of course I do.

Does that have anything at all to do with any of the straw men being raised by you, or by the OP? Of course it doesn't.

It is not "over the top, emotional, misleading" to say that you have completely adopted a "guilty until proven innocent" approach toward Muslims. Your assumption is that they deserve a backlash unless they have denounced violence. Moreover, you have ignored the OP's denunciation and misrepresented what she wrote:

OP here, of course I denounce the attacks in Paris. I denounce all violence. And no I do not know the Muslim teachings they are using. That is not what I was taught when I went to Sunday School at a mosque in Boston when I was a kid.

Given that she has met your requirement for a denunciation, I expect you to retract your criticism.

If you are not sure what is meant by backlash, let me give you some examples;

http://www.buzzfeed.com/davidmack/islamophobia-since-paris-attacks#.faPX6qbNd

The details are available at the link, but here are some examples:

1. Threatening calls to a mosque in St. Petersburg, Florida
2. Acts of vandalism at the Islamic Center of Pflugerville, Texas
3. Threats to “shoot up a mosque” near Houston
4. Islamic Center vandalized in Omaha, Nebraska
5. Mosque fired upon in Connecticut
6. Muslim student’s dorm room vandalized in Connecticut
7. Man calls 911 to threaten to shoot Muslims in Oklahoma

In addition to these, I am aware of two incidents in which passengers were forced off aircraft because they were though to be Muslim.

If you truly denounce discrimination against Muslims, you need to start by dropping your assumption that they are supporters of violence until they demonstrate otherwise. Otherwise, all males should be presumed to be rapists until proven otherwise, all those displaying Confederate flags should be considered supporters of killing blacks until they denounce such killings, etc. The very basis of racism is the idea that every member has the same negative attribute. While Islam is obviously no a race, it is similarly wrong to assume that every Muslim is a supporter of violence.

Again, the OP provided a denunciation. You should at least acknowledge that.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an Iranian American Muslim living in the US for the past 35 years, this is the first time I'm personally feeling hate against all Muslims in general. I definitely didn't feel like this after 9/11. I think it has to do with the fact that 2 potential Presidential candidates are spewing hate against Muslims and the fact that one of them may be president next year. This is terrifying to me. Somehow the way that they are verbalizing this type of hate on national TV day in day out will give it credibility and give the impression that it's OK to be a racist...because hey our leaders are doing it.

Having some trouble with the quote function so let's go back to the OP itself.

jsteele I defy you to find any mention of the recent ISIS violence, much less any denunciation of it, in the OP.

Why would you demand that someone denounce ISIS violence in order to discuss a backlash against Muslims? Again, you are suggesting she is guilty of supporting violence and deserving of the backlash unless she first proves her innocence. And, yes, it is exactly people like you who provide justifications for a backlash rather than opposing such a thing. Can you show me where you have condemned violence against innocent Muslims? Where have you opposed discrimination on the basis of religion? You are doing nothing but suggesting that a backlash is deserved.

jsteele, you will never be an effective debater of these sorts of topics if you insist on always using over the top, emotional, misleading rhetoric.

You didn't define what "backlash" means. You also are being extremely evasive. OP never denounced radical Islamic violence. Why would I demand that someone denounce radical Islamic violence? Well, if that person is complaining that they are afraid of receiving "backlash" because they haven't denounced the recent Islamic violence, then it seems it would make sense to find out whether they were willing to actually denounce it, wouldn't it? OP hasn't.

Is it OK with you, if I "criticize" OP for complaining about a hypothetical "backlash" (which she hasn't actually experienced) when she hasn't even bothered to denounce the Islamic violence which is at the root of it?

You see, jsteele, OP didn't denounce radical Islamic violence which occurred recently. She evaded the issue by claiming that's not the kind of Islam SHE was taught as a child in the Boston mosque 35 years ago. The inference being that it couldn't possibly be true that current radical Islamic doctrine is responsible for these violent acts.

"Criticism" of Muslims who want to shut down criticism of their failure to clearly renounce radical Islamic violence by claiming ignorance of it does support the violence, indirectly, as do your posts. If you feel that is unfair "backlash," then you're simply a progagandist.

Do you want me to denounce discrimination against Muslims? Of course I do.

Does that have anything at all to do with any of the straw men being raised by you, or by the OP? Of course it doesn't.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an Iranian American Muslim living in the US for the past 35 years, this is the first time I'm personally feeling hate against all Muslims in general. I definitely didn't feel like this after 9/11. I think it has to do with the fact that 2 potential Presidential candidates are spewing hate against Muslims and the fact that one of them may be president next year. This is terrifying to me. Somehow the way that they are verbalizing this type of hate on national TV day in day out will give it credibility and give the impression that it's OK to be a racist...because hey our leaders are doing it.

What are you doing to calm the fears? Are you denouncing not only the terrorist acts of radical Muslims but also the Muslim teachings they use to motivate and rally their members?

How do you calm irrational fears? How can someone be responsible for another person's fears when those fears are disproportionate to any threat?

Instead I wonder why aren't we as a culture raising braver citizens? We are such cowards.

You can not calm the the fear toward radical Muslims. However, you can calm the unwarranted irrational fear toward non-radical Muslims. The key is to create a clear philosophical separation between the two. Currently the fear stems from the notion that radical Muslims and non-radical Muslims share a singular belief. The only thing separating the two is one group is willing to act out their belief and the other is not. It needs to be made clear that their beliefs are separate as well.

Well clearly that's what liberal Americans fervently want to believe. The problem is that there isn't really a clear distinction that you wish to believe there is. You'll almost never hear a "peaceful" Muslim person offer a clear cut, unequivocal denunciation of radical Islamic acts of violence. There will ALWAYS be rationalizations, excuses, and justifications for it.

I have to agree. As an ex-Catholic who was sick of the hypocrisy, I can mirror your response. too many excuses, too much "hope" in reforming the church

You can't ever erase the fact that children were ALLOWED to be raped.

all excuses
all bullshit

More SJW non sequiturs.

Yes of course raping children is very bad even if Catholic priests do it.

Does that fact have any influence at all on what policy should or shouldn't be followed with regard to the response to radical Islamic terrorism?

I don't think so. Do you think pedophilic Catholic priests have any influence with ISIS, bro? That would be news to me and everyone else.

It's a mindset, genius.
an analogy

Religion is so easily twisted to push an agenda. You can't see that? For example, the Catholic Church will go on b/c many people are so brainwashed and so far removed from these tragic events that to them - these are only "stories."

You think this is any different for devout Muslims?


And it's sis, honey bun, not bro.

Bravo, Jeff. PP comes off as a bigoted bully.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an Iranian American Muslim living in the US for the past 35 years, this is the first time I'm personally feeling hate against all Muslims in general. I definitely didn't feel like this after 9/11. I think it has to do with the fact that 2 potential Presidential candidates are spewing hate against Muslims and the fact that one of them may be president next year. This is terrifying to me. Somehow the way that they are verbalizing this type of hate on national TV day in day out will give it credibility and give the impression that it's OK to be a racist...because hey our leaders are doing it.

Having some trouble with the quote function so let's go back to the OP itself.

jsteele I defy you to find any mention of the recent ISIS violence, much less any denunciation of it, in the OP.

Why would you demand that someone denounce ISIS violence in order to discuss a backlash against Muslims? Again, you are suggesting she is guilty of supporting violence and deserving of the backlash unless she first proves her innocence. And, yes, it is exactly people like you who provide justifications for a backlash rather than opposing such a thing. Can you show me where you have condemned violence against innocent Muslims? Where have you opposed discrimination on the basis of religion? You are doing nothing but suggesting that a backlash is deserved.

And further, the PP wants Muslims to denounce ISIS in exactly the same words he would use or they are not really denouncing them.

Anonymous wrote:As an Iranian American Muslim living in the US for the past 35 years, this is the first time I'm personally feeling hate against all Muslims in general. I definitely didn't feel like this after 9/11. I think it has to do with the fact that 2 potential Presidential candidates are spewing hate against Muslims and the fact that one of them may be president next year. This is terrifying to me. Somehow the way that they are verbalizing this type of hate on national TV day in day out will give it credibility and give the impression that it's OK to be a racist...because hey our leaders are doing it.

Having some trouble with the quote function so let's go back to the OP itself.

jsteele I defy you to find any mention of the recent ISIS violence, much less any denunciation of it, in the OP.

"People like me"? WTF are you talking about?

The OP told us what her wife/partner was concerned about arising from all the recent ISIS/radical Islamic killing and violence around the world recently.

OP's wife neglected to actually complain about ANY of that radical Islamic violence, though. Please re-read the OP's first post. All the OP's wife, and the OP complained about, was the hypothetical "backlash." Not the ISIS violence. When confronted on the ISIS violence, OP then equivocated by stating to the effect "Well that's not what I learned in the Boston mosque 35 years ago!" In other words, OP is in complete denial of what the issue is about.

So, if there's any "backlash," it's due to this denial of reality. To mischaracterize that as "anti Muslim bigotry" is intellectually dishonest and unfair.

You mean like what was previously posted in this thread? Do you understand the difference between "equivocal" and "unequivocal"?

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like you all feel paranoid but nothing has happened to you personally. But yet, we are not allowed to feel paranoid that something might happen to us here in the US by ISIS? Hate, bigotry and racism goes both ways but it is only a small minority.

Actually, the claim of "peaceful" Muslims that they're terrified of possible discrimination, and that should be the focal point of concern of Americans, rather than the actual murderous acts of radical Islamic terrorists, is all part of a rather broad propaganda campaign in which the "peaceful" Islamic folks indirectly support the violent radical Islamic groups.

They want people to feel guilty for being scared of the dangers of radical Islamic terrorists, that'll shame them into backing off from tougher security measures. Makes America a softer target.

Why are you putting "peaceful" in quotes? Do you approve of discrimination against innocent people? You seem to be justifying prejudice. Do you think that when people like you imply that there are no such thing as peaceful Muslims that you might encourage those who would do violence against them?

"Peaceful" is in quotes because that's how these individuals wish themselves to be perceived. I don't see as how anyone else is required to accept that self-characterization, especially when the "peaceful" individuals are unable to straightforwardly indicate a personal rejection of radical Islamic terroristic violence. Like in this thread--we heard about an evidently lesbian woman say that her partner/wife was complaining about being discriminated against due to being Muslim and due to being gay. We didn't hear that PP tell us that her wife came out against the ISIS violence, though, did we? It's kind of ironic considering how groups like ISIS are very homophobic. Seems to me it should be rather easy for that PP's partner to express clear opposition to ISIS. But evidently she didn't.

Is she peaceful or "peaceful"? I don't know, and neither do you.

What is wrong with some people that think they every muslim has to denounce ISIS...how many christians go around proclaiming that they denounce the pedophilia that was widespread in the catholic church? Not that many...and none that I know of. I don't take that to mean that these people support pedophiles, because I apply common sense.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an Iranian American Muslim living in the US for the past 35 years, this is the first time I'm personally feeling hate against all Muslims in general. I definitely didn't feel like this after 9/11. I think it has to do with the fact that 2 potential Presidential candidates are spewing hate against Muslims and the fact that one of them may be president next year. This is terrifying to me. Somehow the way that they are verbalizing this type of hate on national TV day in day out will give it credibility and give the impression that it's OK to be a racist...because hey our leaders are doing it.

What are you doing to calm the fears? Are you denouncing not only the terrorist acts of radical Muslims but also the Muslim teachings they use to motivate and rally their members?

How do you calm irrational fears? How can someone be responsible for another person's fears when those fears are disproportionate to any threat?

Instead I wonder why aren't we as a culture raising braver citizens? We are such cowards.

You can not calm the the fear toward radical Muslims. However, you can calm the unwarranted irrational fear toward non-radical Muslims. The key is to create a clear philosophical separation between the two. Currently the fear stems from the notion that radical Muslims and non-radical Muslims share a singular belief. The only thing separating the two is one group is willing to act out their belief and the other is not. It needs to be made clear that their beliefs are separate as well.

Well clearly that's what liberal Americans fervently want to believe. The problem is that there isn't really a clear distinction that you wish to believe there is. You'll almost never hear a "peaceful" Muslim person offer a clear cut, unequivocal denunciation of radical Islamic acts of violence. There will ALWAYS be rationalizations, excuses, and justifications for it.

I have to agree. As an ex-Catholic who was sick of the hypocrisy, I can mirror your response. too many excuses, too much "hope" in reforming the church

You can't ever erase the fact that children were ALLOWED to be raped.

all excuses
all bullshit

More SJW non sequiturs.

Yes of course raping children is very bad even if Catholic priests do it.

Does that fact have any influence at all on what policy should or shouldn't be followed with regard to the response to radical Islamic terrorism?

I don't think so. Do you think pedophilic Catholic priests have any influence with ISIS, bro? That would be news to me and everyone else.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an Iranian American Muslim living in the US for the past 35 years, this is the first time I'm personally feeling hate against all Muslims in general. I definitely didn't feel like this after 9/11. I think it has to do with the fact that 2 potential Presidential candidates are spewing hate against Muslims and the fact that one of them may be president next year. This is terrifying to me. Somehow the way that they are verbalizing this type of hate on national TV day in day out will give it credibility and give the impression that it's OK to be a racist...because hey our leaders are doing it.

What are you doing to calm the fears? Are you denouncing not only the terrorist acts of radical Muslims but also the Muslim teachings they use to motivate and rally their members?

How do you calm irrational fears? How can someone be responsible for another person's fears when those fears are disproportionate to any threat?

Instead I wonder why aren't we as a culture raising braver citizens? We are such cowards.

You can not calm the the fear toward radical Muslims. However, you can calm the unwarranted irrational fear toward non-radical Muslims. The key is to create a clear philosophical separation between the two. Currently the fear stems from the notion that radical Muslims and non-radical Muslims share a singular belief. The only thing separating the two is one group is willing to act out their belief and the other is not. It needs to be made clear that their beliefs are separate as well.

Well clearly that's what liberal Americans fervently want to believe. The problem is that there isn't really a clear distinction that you wish to believe there is. You'll almost never hear a "peaceful" Muslim person offer a clear cut, unequivocal denunciation of radical Islamic acts of violence. There will ALWAYS be rationalizations, excuses, and justifications for it.

I have to agree. As an ex-Catholic who was sick of the hypocrisy, I can mirror your response. too many excuses, too much "hope" in reforming the church

You can't ever erase the fact that children were ALLOWED to be raped.

all excuses
all bullshit

But those were extreme Catholics who were not following the teachings of the Catholic church.

These were local parishes that were able to hide these pedophiles by transferring them from one place to another. Of course they're not following the teachings of the church - or ANY church for that matter. However, it was the church that allowed these abuses to continue.

How any Catholic can return to this sick fuckfest is a mystery to me!

In fact, any "religious" person who makes excuses for these extreme cases is sick in the head. I don't care who your god is.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It sounds like you all feel paranoid but nothing has happened to you personally. But yet, we are not allowed to feel paranoid that something might happen to us here in the US by ISIS? Hate, bigotry and racism goes both ways but it is only a small minority.

Actually, the claim of "peaceful" Muslims that they're terrified of possible discrimination, and that should be the focal point of concern of Americans, rather than the actual murderous acts of radical Islamic terrorists, is all part of a rather broad propaganda campaign in which the "peaceful" Islamic folks indirectly support the violent radical Islamic groups.

They want people to feel guilty for being scared of the dangers of radical Islamic terrorists, that'll shame them into backing off from tougher security measures. Makes America a softer target.

Why are you putting "peaceful" in quotes? Do you approve of discrimination against innocent people? You seem to be justifying prejudice. Do you think that when people like you imply that there are no such thing as peaceful Muslims that you might encourage those who would do violence against them?

"Peaceful" is in quotes because that's how these individuals wish themselves to be perceived. I don't see as how anyone else is required to accept that self-characterization, especially when the "peaceful" individuals are unable to straightforwardly indicate a personal rejection of radical Islamic terroristic violence. Like in this thread--we heard about an evidently lesbian woman say that her partner/wife was complaining about being discriminated against due to being Muslim and due to being gay. We didn't hear that PP tell us that her wife came out against the ISIS violence, though, did we? It's kind of ironic considering how groups like ISIS are very homophobic. Seems to me it should be rather easy for that PP's partner to express clear opposition to ISIS. But evidently she didn't.

Is she peaceful or "peaceful"? I don't know, and neither do you.