Anonymous wrote:Think of it this way folks: would you want your 12 yr old in the same class with a 14 yr old boy?

If the 14 yo wasn't red-shirted, this wouldn't be an issue.

Back in the day we used to think kids who were old for their grade were dumb. Somehow it has become something that the upper class does all the time now. I find the world confusing sometimes.

It's interesting because the research seems to be showing that it actually doesn't help kids that much and may harm them somewhat in the long run. Yet parents continue to do it because they think their child is getting some kind of mysterious advantage. It seems like a short sighted thing to do.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know several middle-aged adult men who "failed" kindergarten back in the day and repeated. They are all now intelligent, contributing members of society. Red-shirting is simply taking away that year of "failure" by putting off K for a year.

"Redshirting" for sports reasons may be new, but holding kids back for academic or, more likely, social maturity reasons is not.

I don't think this is the problem. Most Moms who held their kids back, then put their kids in Kumon, or private tutoring, or do extra workbooks at home so they will be challenged. If your child is mature enough that they can sit still and concentrate long enough to do reading and/or math past the Kindergarten level, why do you think they are not mature yet? It takes concentration to count to 100, to read even a level 1 book, and if you child can do that, they can manage K.

also, why did these adult men 'fail' Kindergarten back in the day, when K was only half-day, and not much was expected of us? We just painted, sang songs, listened to story time, had recess, just like preschool these days. How did they fail that? I don't know anyone that failed Kindergarten. I peed in my pants in class, and didn't speak one word the entire year according to my report card(I was shy), but I still passed. I see why a child might fail these days because kids do academic work, but still, the only time a kid fails is because they have a developmental delay that keeps the kid from keeping up with the class, they don't keep kids back for maturity. If a kid is misbehaving, that kid has a behavior problem, not a maturity problem.

Why do people think that even if their kid can read chapter books, they will still be challenged because they will learn so many social skills, but they are learning the social skills of kids up to and over a year younger than them, how is that helpful?

+1, I think it hurt my kid by holding him back socially. His behavior significantly improved when we jumped a year and put him with the right age kids. You cannot expect them to be "mature" if they are with kids a year back and socially those kids are at the right age level.

Anonymous wrote:Think of it this way folks: would you want your 12 yr old in the same class with a 14 yr old boy?

My 12-year-old (girl) is in the same class as a 14-year-old boy, because she's a seventh-grader in a math class that is mostly eighth-graders. Nothing bad has happened yet.

Anonymous wrote:Ok bickering pps, can we agree that parents do it because they believe it gives their kid a leg up compared to him/herself in kindergarten on time? They think their kid will do better. Some people take that to mean they will put my (on time) kid at a disadvantage. Some do not.

Disagree.

"Some parents do it because..." This I can agree with.

Think of it this way folks: would you want your 12 yr old in the same class with a 14 yr old boy?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I know several middle-aged adult men who "failed" kindergarten back in the day and repeated. They are all now intelligent, contributing members of society. Red-shirting is simply taking away that year of "failure" by putting off K for a year.

"Redshirting" for sports reasons may be new, but holding kids back for academic or, more likely, social maturity reasons is not.

I don't think this is the problem. Most Moms who held their kids back, then put their kids in Kumon, or private tutoring, or do extra workbooks at home so they will be challenged. If your child is mature enough that they can sit still and concentrate long enough to do reading and/or math past the Kindergarten level, why do you think they are not mature yet? It takes concentration to count to 100, to read even a level 1 book, and if you child can do that, they can manage K.

also, why did these adult men 'fail' Kindergarten back in the day, when K was only half-day, and not much was expected of us? We just painted, sang songs, listened to story time, had recess, just like preschool these days. How did they fail that? I don't know anyone that failed Kindergarten. I peed in my pants in class, and didn't speak one word the entire year according to my report card(I was shy), but I still passed. I see why a child might fail these days because kids do academic work, but still, the only time a kid fails is because they have a developmental delay that keeps the kid from keeping up with the class, they don't keep kids back for maturity. If a kid is misbehaving, that kid has a behavior problem, not a maturity problem.

Why do people think that even if their kid can read chapter books, they will still be challenged because they will learn so many social skills, but they are learning the social skills of kids up to and over a year younger than them, how is that helpful?

Actually, behavioral problems in K usually come from maturity problems. 5yo's aren't talking when they should be quiet and failing to follow instructions because they like to be in trouble. They're getting into trouble because they have lagging skills.

My older son was born in the winter, so we didn't red shirt him. K was the worst possible thing we could have done to him. We should have pulled him out before the school suspended him for threatening suicide. I look at my younger son, who just barely missed the cut off, and see that he could have done okay in K this year ... or at least survived without major negative impact. But one more year gives him more opportunity for non-academic learning and doesn't negatively impact him or anyone else.

Anonymous wrote:I feed my kid a healthy diet because I assume it will give her a leg up, health wise, academically, etc. Does that put your kid at a disadvantage or not? Obviously you wouldn't argue that I shouldn't do so if I believe it would help my child, right? My choice, and within the existing "rules". You are certainly welcome to disagree and not do so.

The only question is whether harm is done to other children and certainly no one has established that.

What a ridiculous example. Eating healthy has been documented over and over to be healthy for every single human being. Kids arent being compared to others in terms of who eats healthiest setting them up for potential future success etc. I hope you aren't a lawyer.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Is there a limit to redshirting within the first year? I don't know of any.

A child who turns six on Sept 2 (and so would naturally be the oldest in the K class in MD) can still redshirt, right? So there is nothing stopping a 7 year old from being in K, is there? Surely we can agree that that's a whacky system, and maybe SOME limits and guidelines should be implemented. We're already starting to get April and May parents asking about redshirting right here on DCUM.

Yes, this child could. But is it actually happening? And if it is, is it actually happening in meaningful numbers? And if it is actually happening in meaningful numbers, is it causing any problems? Let's answer those questions first, instead of getting upset about hypotheticals.

We are in FCPS and yes it does cause problems. Teachers end up trying to teach 2 grade levels or more in one year. Also I think it skews testing data. Wealthy schools come off as having better scores than they would if less kids were redshirted painting this picture of a huge divide between rich and poor schools. This is noticeable in schools like ours that have a large number of children redshirted.

Anonymous wrote:I know several middle-aged adult men who "failed" kindergarten back in the day and repeated. They are all now intelligent, contributing members of society. Red-shirting is simply taking away that year of "failure" by putting off K for a year.

"Redshirting" for sports reasons may be new, but holding kids back for academic or, more likely, social maturity reasons is not.

I don't think this is the problem. Most Moms who held their kids back, then put their kids in Kumon, or private tutoring, or do extra workbooks at home so they will be challenged. If your child is mature enough that they can sit still and concentrate long enough to do reading and/or math past the Kindergarten level, why do you think they are not mature yet? It takes concentration to count to 100, to read even a level 1 book, and if you child can do that, they can manage K.

also, why did these adult men 'fail' Kindergarten back in the day, when K was only half-day, and not much was expected of us? We just painted, sang songs, listened to story time, had recess, just like preschool these days. How did they fail that? I don't know anyone that failed Kindergarten. I peed in my pants in class, and didn't speak one word the entire year according to my report card(I was shy), but I still passed. I see why a child might fail these days because kids do academic work, but still, the only time a kid fails is because they have a developmental delay that keeps the kid from keeping up with the class, they don't keep kids back for maturity. If a kid is misbehaving, that kid has a behavior problem, not a maturity problem.

Why do people think that even if their kid can read chapter books, they will still be challenged because they will learn so many social skills, but they are learning the social skills of kids up to and over a year younger than them, how is that helpful?

Ok bickering pps, can we agree that parents do it because they believe it gives their kid a leg up compared to him/herself in kindergarten on time? They think their kid will do better. Some people take that to mean they will put my (on time) kid at a disadvantage. Some do not.

My child attends a school where redshirting is expected. 1/4-1/3rd of the class is redshirted, depending on the class and the grade. My child has a late summer birthday and was not redshirted, so significantly towards the younger end of the class.

In K - 3rd, DC needed more support, struggled with some social interactions, and often seemed out of step. The gap was closing over those years as the several months age difference mattered less and less, but it was apparent. You could also generally identify the red shirted children as more capable but that strength also faded.

By 4th grade, the differences were generally gone. There was a range of social and academic ability and children of different ages were scattered in their abilities.

In 5th and 6th, some of the redshirted kids began to stand out more. In 8th grade now, there are a couple children who were redshirted who I think should clearly be in the grade above. They are frustrated and bored and obviously socially and academically capable of more challenging work. There is no real avenue for them to be promoted.

Those children who may have needed a little bit of extra time at the beginning are now trapped. Most of the redshirted kids are just fine, and will probably continue to be fine. But there are a couple for whom there should be a path forward.

That is how redshirting can both help (early advantage) and hinder (later lack of opportunity and challenge) your child. And also hinder (early challenge) and help (more challenging environment for the capable children) children who aren't redshirted.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OK, so you know that many parents do it to give their kid a leg up because the NYT, New Yorker, and Cornell press release say so. Now, how do they know that?

Please stop. You're really embarrassing.
- new poster

I'm not embarrassed. PP(s) is/are saying that everybody knows that parents do this to give their kid a leg up. Well, there are plenty of things that everybody knows that aren't actually true. Could this be one of them? I think so. If you look at the links, it's a lot of anecdotes and more "everybody knows that..."

The sky is blue PP. It really is.

Me: How do you know this?
You: It's obvious! It just is!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

OK, so you know that many parents do it to give their kid a leg up because the NYT, New Yorker, and Cornell press release say so. Now, how do they know that?

Please stop. You're really embarrassing.
- new poster

I'm not embarrassed. PP(s) is/are saying that everybody knows that parents do this to give their kid a leg up. Well, there are plenty of things that everybody knows that aren't actually true. Could this be one of them? I think so. If you look at the links, it's a lot of anecdotes and more "everybody knows that..."

The sky is blue PP. It really is.