Anonymous wrote:Another thought- Latinos born here in the U.S. Are native speakers of English. They speak as perfectly as any other American. I couldn't imagine saying now they're superior in Spanish, which subverts their native English ability. Yet, this discussion seems to pidgeon hole them. Trading one discriminatory view for another. This is why you can't do it.

Are you saying that to be considered a native Spanish speaker, one HAS to be born outside of the U.S.? So by your logic, no U.S.-born children of Spanish-speaking families qualify?

What about children who speak multiple languages?

The issue of dominant language is pretty straight-forward and leaves little room for interpretation: if your child's first language is Spanish, meaning that they speak Spanish at age level, and English at some lower level or not at all, then they are Spanish-dominant. If the opposite is true, then they are English-dominant. It's not about being fluent enough to lie their way through the test. They could be very fluent in Spanish (good for them!), but if their native tongue is English and they speak English at home, they are English-dominant. We are immigrants and speak Spanish at home. Our daughter, who was born here, speaks Spanish at home and at her Spanish-immersion daycare. She speaks a few words in English that she picked up from her classmates, but only Spanish at age-level. She is the poster child for Spanish dominance, and that's how we applied to Oyster. We are waitlisted, and we hope that a space that should go to her is not taken by someone who lied on their application.

PP, that's good analysis, but you should read the whole thread to understand the context here. The goal was not to compare schools. It was to verify whether, as several LAMB parents had suggested, Oyster was dumbing down its curriculum in Spanish (math is only taught in Spanish at Oyster)

Let me ask you: with the information you have, do you think Oyster is dumbing down its Spanish curriculum?

PS: MGP methodology sounds super interesting, but it does have one fundamental weakness. The lowest the starting point, the easiest it is to drive large improvements. The highest the starting point, the toughest to drive large improvements. Which is why Deal, according to the article you link to, ranks number 38 based on MGP...and we all know that it is a quite good school (and that it doesn't seem to dumb down its curriculum)

I have no dog in this fight. We bombed on the LAMB lottery and my child is too young for Oyster.

But I do hate it when people misuse data and that is what I feel is going on here in comparing these scores point blank. See the current Hardy thread on a 'dispassioned' evaluation of Hardy for a better analysis. But here is my crude analysis looking into the data on LAMB vs. Oyster.

2014 Test Scores - students scoring proficient or advanced
LAMB:
Math - 69.64
Reading - 73.21
Composition - 83.33
Science - 83.33

Oyster:
Math - 79.59
Reading - 79.8
Composition - 78.05
Science - 78.47

Oyster scores better in key areas of math and reading. Interestingly, though, LAMB scores better in composition and science. It is probably differences in curriculum and approach that account for that.

Now, more importantly than the face value test scores, let's look at the median growth percentile (MGP) for both schools. MGP is a better measure of school performance because it shows how much the kids are learning at school rather than how high of an income they have. High income brings up test scores across the board. (Again, see Hardy thread for an explanation of this). See http://greatergreatereducation.org/post/18970/heres-the-dc-school-ranking-you-should-be-looking-at/.

MGP Math:
Oyster - 51 (2014)
LAMB - 61 (2013)
*Same year data was not available.

MGP Reading:
Oyster - 52 (2014)
LAMB - 59 (2013)
*Again same year data not available.

So, while Oyster kids are scoring higher on the tests in math and reading, LAMB kids are improving more each year. This could indicate that LAMB kids are learning more in school compared to Oyster kids. Looking over time, these trends seem to have continued for several years with Oyster having higher overall scores and LAMB having higher MPGs. For comparable information from a couple of years back, see http://osse.dc.gov/sites/default/files/dc/sites/osse/release_content/attachments/DC%20Schoolwide%20Growth%20Data%20Report_0.pdf.

Why would LAMB students score lower on the tests when they appear to be improving more on average each year? There could be a variety of reasons. One reason could be demographics since LAMB has a slight higher FARMs percentage and perhaps a more diverse population since you don't have to buy a million dollar home to get in, just win a school lottery (equally hard?). Another reason could perhaps be different teaching methods - it would be interesting to see how other Montessori schools stack up and whether Montessori teaching methods may play a role in the different scores. Finally, there are more ELL students at LAMB which could bring down their scores in the early years with some catch up to play in the later years.

All I want to point out here is that you have to look more deeply into the data when comparing schools rather than just look at straight up test scores. Beyond the analysis above, it is also useful to disaggregate by subgroup.

Regardless of all of this discussion, both LAMB and Oyster are great schools and I would give my left arm for my child to be accepted at either one of them.

Okay, well I meant to ask current oyster parents in general, TIA!

Are they also pushing for more advanced math and tracking in math? Like algebra by 7th grade? Thanks!

No one else can push for Spanish and monitor its quality like the educated Spanish speakers. Now math offerings should involve everyone, so join and don't just wait for others to do all the work.

Anonymous wrote:

Oyster probably has the most affluent and best educated native Spanish-speaking parents among all of the public immersion schools in DC. Do you honestly think that these native speakers, WITH GOOD EDUCATIONAL OPTIONS, are going to put their children in a school that has a “dumbed down curriculum,” or teaches mediocre Spanish?

I completely agree. This is why we now have a Spanish grammar class in the middle school, because such parents pushed for it.

Are they also pushing for more advanced math and tracking in math? Like algebra by 7th grade? Thanks!

Now that the Spanish level at OA and elsewhere has surfaced in the thread, this educated (but no so affluent) bilingual (but Spanish dominant) parent, would like to repost something from earlier in the thread

What we have to do is support the expansion of bilingual programs throughout the city and demand that DCPS seriously devote more resources to bilingual education so that it is truly excellent. DCPS has no clear curriculum standards and guidelines for bilingual education. At DCPS, the same office in charge of ESL (dealing with the issues of DC's large immigrant population) is also in charge of bilingual education. Furthermore, it is staffed by a handful (or fewer) of people. There are 7 or more DCPS bilingual schools and now they are proposing Roosevelt HS with dual immersion. We should require proper oversight of the language component of all these programs and also make it part of the evaluation process of students and schools. What is the incentive for a school to teach the second language well if they are only measured by their English reading and math scores? This is the conversation we should have among us and with DCPS. The link below has some info

http://www.american.edu/cas/seth/bilingual/upload/...CE-SEPTEMBER-27-2014_Brito.pdf

Oyster probably has the most affluent and best educated native Spanish-speaking parents among all of the public immersion schools in DC. Do you honestly think that these native speakers, WITH GOOD EDUCATIONAL OPTIONS, are going to put their children in a school that has a “dumbed down curriculum,” or teaches mediocre Spanish?

I completely agree. This is why we now have a Spanish grammar class in the middle school, because such parents pushed for it.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here - just wanted to add that the reason we did not take the spot at Oyster is because we have heard from friends that Oyster is not a very challenging school for kids who are already Spanish speaking. They have said that the classes in Spanish are dumbed down so that the kids who don't speak Spanish can understand them - and therefore if you already speak the language,you won't learn much in that half of the curriculum. I'm not sure if this is true or not - but if so, the administration does need to be rigorous about trying to bring up or keep up the level of Spanish spoken at the school (or else Spanish dominant kids won't always want to attend).

Where did you go instead?

LAMB. We liked the individual and differentiated approach to learning inherent in the Montessori method.

Weirdly enough we were in the same boat. The difference was that I visited the school and was not impressed at all. Seems like a great place for some, but the place didn't work for my kid. It worked out because we ended up selling our house (we were inbounds) and sent our kids to LAMB which is a better fit for our kids. I did also hear the same story about the "dumbed down spanish curriculum", but that was from a former neighbor who put her kids in a private school.

As I said before, sounds like a great school, just not for us.

There is a super long wait-list, so I wouldn't worry what my crazy former neighbor thinks.

OK, here's some data that seems to debunk that "dumbed down curriculum" idea. Remember that math is taught in Spanish at O-A.

Results from the 2013-14 DC CAS Math scores, among white students to better compare apples with apples:

- Deal: 74% are Proficient
- Oyster- Adams: 76% are Proficient

So, not only is math instruction IN SPANISH pretty good...but results seem even better than Deal's...when tested in ENGLISH.

I didn't find comparable data for LAMB in the DCPS website.

The LAMB data is available via the DCPCSB website. http://www.dcpcsb.org/ninth-year-row-charter-school-dc-cas-scores-exceed-state-average

For 2013-14

Math 73.2% Proficient

At LAMB math is taught in both languages.

Based on the detailed excelsheet in that link, it's 69% Proficient in Math (73% is for reading).

The comparable metric for Oyster (Advanced + Proficient, all races) is 80%.

80% > 69% so...no apparent problems with Oyster's curriculum, compared either to Deal or to LAMB.

Anonymous wrote:PP 16:39 continued

This discussion of scores is meaningless if you don't take into account the composition of the population in each school, and how much students are actually learning at the school versus their family background

Hello,

Sure, there are many things worth studying, but here I was only trying to do just one thing. I was surprised to hear several PPs mention the rumor that Oyster dumbs down its curriculum in Spanish (had never heard that before). So I constructed the analysis, and looked for the objective and comparable data, to try to accept or reject that rumor.

Given the strength of what I found, I believe we can safely reject that rumor.

And then, we can study something else

PP 16:39 continued

This discussion of scores is meaningless if you don't take into account the composition of the population in each school, and how much students are actually learning at the school versus their family background

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP here - just wanted to add that the reason we did not take the spot at Oyster is because we have heard from friends that Oyster is not a very challenging school for kids who are already Spanish speaking. They have said that the classes in Spanish are dumbed down so that the kids who don't speak Spanish can understand them - and therefore if you already speak the language,you won't learn much in that half of the curriculum. I'm not sure if this is true or not - but if so, the administration does need to be rigorous about trying to bring up or keep up the level of Spanish spoken at the school (or else Spanish dominant kids won't always want to attend).

Where did you go instead?

LAMB. We liked the individual and differentiated approach to learning inherent in the Montessori method.

Weirdly enough we were in the same boat. The difference was that I visited the school and was not impressed at all. Seems like a great place for some, but the place didn't work for my kid. It worked out because we ended up selling our house (we were inbounds) and sent our kids to LAMB which is a better fit for our kids. I did also hear the same story about the "dumbed down spanish curriculum", but that was from a former neighbor who put her kids in a private school.

OK, here's some data that seems to debunk that "dumbed down curriculum" idea. Remember that math is taught in Spanish at O-A.

Results from the 2013-14 DC CAS Math scores, among white students to better compare apples with apples:

- Deal: 74% are Proficient
- Oyster- Adams: 76% are Proficient

So, not only is math instruction IN SPANISH pretty good...but results seem even better than Deal's...when tested in ENGLISH.

I didn't find comparable data for LAMB in the DCPS website.

My apologies, I made a mistake with the numbers above. They represent the proportion of students who are ADVANCED (which is the highest score, over PROFICIENT)

Results from the 2013-14 DC CAS Math scores, among white students to better compare apples with apples:

- Deal: 74% are ADVANCED
- Oyster- Adams: 76% are ADVANCED

The conclusion remains the same: The curriculum and the results at Oyster-Adams do NOT look dumbed down.

Anonymous wrote:PP here. I can't seem to find my comment from earlier. I think oyster is a great school, but I didn't think it would be a good fit for my children. Lamb seems to be a better fit so far. I was not trying to disparage oyster, but I do wonder who is spreading the rumors that the curriculum isn't good. In my case it was a neighbor who sent her kids to private.

Also would like to point out that there is a long waitlist so the naysayers are obviously outnumbered. Glad to see so much support!

It sounds as if your neighbor has: (a) absolutely no idea about what she’s talking about; (b) never stepped foot inside Oyster or spoken with current parents; and/or (c) an ax to grind with Oyster (for whatever reason under the sun). While I am not interested in convincing anyone to come to Oyster; it annoys me when people don’t exercise basic common sense. Consider this: Oyster probably has the most affluent and best educated native Spanish-speaking parents among all of the public immersion schools in DC. Do you honestly think that these native speakers, WITH GOOD EDUCATIONAL OPTIONS, are going to put their children in a school that has a “dumbed down curriculum,” or teaches mediocre Spanish? Oyster has been a bilingual immersion school for over 40 years. No immersion school has been around longer in the DC metro area, besides WIS. While Oyster isn't perfect, a mediocre curriculum isn't one of its problems. Please use your thinking caps folks.