Just give them jobs...

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

Can you please explain your purpose in posting this. Also, can you explain what it is?

It's Hadith. While most Muslims I would bet do not take this to heart, I posted it because obviously IS does in fact take this Hadith to heart and it is probably a verse that they use to justify the killing of non-believers, which is what this thread is about.

But you don't also post that it is a Hadith followed by followers of Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab, who began an Islamic reformation in the 18th century (Wahhabism), denounced by many Muslims then and now. The way you originally presented it, it infers it is an Hadith is followed by the entire Islamic community, which it is not.

Listen, this debate over whether Islam as a whole is "bad" or "violent" versus whether it is just some Muslims who are twisting their religion occurs constantly on this forum. I don't think anyone's mind is going to change.

But to the people who insist that Islam itself is the problem, let's just continue with your train of thought instead of trying to disagree. Islam is violent and bad. Now what? A billion people follow this religion. If we decide it's "bad" what exactly have we gained from this knowledge? Should we just be incredibly distrusting of Muslims all the time? Because newsflash, we already are.

Anonymous wrote:

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Yet, I do not say Jesus really wants Christians to kill non-Christians today. I am not going to take in out of context as you do other ancient text to incite people for some reason only you know.

No. Jesus gave this statement in a parable. That puts a different spin on it. It was not what he wanted then or now.

Exactly what was said. PP did not take in out of context as many are quick to do with other religious text.

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Yet, I do not say Jesus really wants Christians to kill non-Christians today. I am not going to take in out of context as you do other ancient text to incite people for some reason only you know.

No. Jesus gave this statement in a parable. That puts a different spin on it. It was not what he wanted then or now.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

Can you please explain your purpose in posting this. Also, can you explain what it is?

It's Hadith. While most Muslims I would bet do not take this to heart, I posted it because obviously IS does in fact take this Hadith to heart and it is probably a verse that they use to justify the killing of non-believers, which is what this thread is about.

Anonymous wrote:Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

Luke 19:27 But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Yet, I do not say Jesus really wants Christians to kill non-Christians today. I am not going to take in out of context as you do other ancient text to incite people for some reason only you know.

Anonymous wrote:Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

Can you please explain your purpose in posting this. Also, can you explain what it is?

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us"

jsteele wrote: Even Saudi Arabia where the group might be expected to have the strongest support shows only 5%. So, the group is hardly influential at all within Islam.

Ok that is another 1 million ISIS supporters just in Saudi Arabia. Note that in Saudi Arabia or Egypt -- or England or the US -- it is dangerous to be a declared ISIS supporter.
I guess we have different perspectives -- I find it appalling and frightening that 2-3 % of the Sunni Arab population supports ISIS violence.

As for the Westboro Church I am not aware of any supporters outside of the Church membership. Their protests around the country are well-advertised but they never have more than a couple of dozen people show up.

This thread is encouraging in that I hope we will all apply these same thoughts and viewpoints when referring to any group, whether it be northerners, southerners, Republicans, Democrats, Buddhists, Christians, Catholics, Muslims, Californians, Floridians, Texans, Alabamians, etc. In other words, don't make broad-based assumptions and generalizations.

the religion of peace is just misunderstood.

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

jsteele wrote:

I made what is called a reductio ad absurdum. It is of course absurd to define Christianity by the Westboro Baptist Church. It is equally absurd to define Islam by ISIS. If you disagree with either of those statements, please explain why you disagree.

The Westboro church consists of 50 people in one town in Kansas. ISIS has at least 1 million followers spread over many countries with numerous scholars justifying its beliefs in the Koran. So I'd say that ISIS is a significant current in contemporary Islamic thought, whereas the Westboro church is an extreme fringe.

Regardless of the numbers (which I think you are greatly exaggerating), the principle is the same.

If you think 1 million followers of ISIS is a exaggeration then you have you head in the sand. The following poll

http://www.washingtoninstitute.org/policy-analysis/view/isis-has-almost-no-popular-support-in-egypt-saudi-arabia-or-lebanon

shows support for ISIS between 2 and 3% in Egypt -- that is over 1 million people right there, and that doesn't include supporters in the 81 other countries who currently have fighters assisting ISIS in Iraq/Syria.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/iraq-war-on-terror/losing-iraq/why-are-so-many-westerners-joining-isis/

Why would you want to play down the actual number of ISIS supporters?

It appears that you and I are disagreeing more about whether "followers" is a synonym for "supporters". In the case of Westboro, you limited the number to actual members. I assumed that by "followers" you meant people activity participating within the IS movement (party, caliphate, whatever you want to call it) who were more like "members". That number is far less than 1 million. As the poll to which you linked shows, IS doesn't have very much support in any of the countries polled. Even Saudi Arabia where the group might be expected to have the strongest support shows only 5%. So, the group is hardly influential at all within Islam.

jsteele wrote:

Criticize both groups, not the larger religions to which they claim to belong.

But many times criticism of ISIS is taken to be criticism of Islam. For example, this thread started with a link to a news article describing the beheading of 21 Coptic Christians in Libya. The next post simply had the two words "peaceful religion". In the third post, Jeff took exception to these two words and said "The more people like you react in the way you are, the better it serves the goals of IS." Now I don't know the intention of the person who wrote the two words "peaceful religion" but I took it to mean "These killers claim to be adherents of Islam, supposedly a peaceful religion, yet they commit the most brutal of murders." I certainly don't interpret it to be a comment about all followers of Islam.

jsteele wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WBC holds up hateful signs, especially in appropriate places. ISIS actually, you know, slaughters people.

But that's none of my business.

Criticize both groups, not the larger religions to which they claim to belong.

Why? They are both reactionary, hateful shit.