Anonymous wrote:

A lot of manufacturing and even agriculture can and will be automated, so concern about foreign outsourcing isn't even the issue. The time is coming where if you want a decent job in agriculture, you will need a degree in remote sensing, geology, genomics, or other things to focus on optimal crop yields, because a high school diploma - same with manufacturing - better shoot for computer science, engineering, materials science, chemistry and other types of degrees.

There will still be students (through no fault of the teachers) who are not able or do not want to go to college. Some humans just don't want to be in classrooms or sit behind computers. Maybe the answer will come and we will have a perfect world when we can engineer humans to suit our needs.

Either that or we need a new economic model, because in a future where those people are unemployable, they will be unable to support themselves.

Figure that one out, conservatives and capitalists. It's a very real future that's coming our way. You might want to check this out: http://www.amazon.com/The-Second-Machine-Age-Technologies/dp/1480577472

Answer me this: How do you raise "standards" and raise the graduation rate at the same time?

Put another way:

How do we get the drop out rate down?

What are the factors contributing to the high drop out rate? Is a lack of national standards one of the contributing factors? Or is the drop out rate unimportant (as in we will always need janitors)?

A lot of manufacturing and even agriculture can and will be automated, so concern about foreign outsourcing isn't even the issue. The time is coming where if you want a decent job in agriculture, you will need a degree in remote sensing, geology, genomics, or other things to focus on optimal crop yields, because a high school diploma - same with manufacturing - better shoot for computer science, engineering, materials science, chemistry and other types of degrees.

There will still be students (through no fault of the teachers) who are not able or do not want to go to college. Some humans just don't want to be in classrooms or sit behind computers. Maybe the answer will come and we will have a perfect world when we can engineer humans to suit our needs.

^ because a simple high school diploma won't nearly cover the education really needed to keep up.

Anonymous wrote:

Tailoring everything to local industries is a trap. What happens when the coal runs out (as it did in parts of Appalachia?)

People need a more robust set of skills and knowledge, if you are just a one-trick pony, you are likely to find yourself screwed for a job.

Agriculture is not a one-trick pony. It involves lots of skill sets. That is in the heartland and it is VERY important to our economy.

Also, we should be trying to get manufacturing back to America. It's not just a one-trick pony either. There was a reason that GM got bailed out.

As for coal, yes it will run out. Same for other minerals. But the technical skills used in mining may be transferable to manufacturing or to the oil fields in North Dakota.

The federal government cannot be wholly responsible for people's educations. Individual responsibility has to come into play as well. And teachers cannot be blamed for all of the failures. Failure happens for many reasons (that go way beyond the "standards").

A lot of manufacturing and even agriculture can and will be automated, so concern about foreign outsourcing isn't even the issue. The time is coming where if you want a decent job in agriculture, you will need a degree in remote sensing, geology, genomics, or other things to focus on optimal crop yields, because a high school diploma - same with manufacturing - better shoot for computer science, engineering, materials science, chemistry and other types of degrees.

Tailoring everything to local industries is a trap. What happens when the coal runs out (as it did in parts of Appalachia?)

People need a more robust set of skills and knowledge, if you are just a one-trick pony, you are likely to find yourself screwed for a job.

Agriculture is not a one-trick pony. It involves lots of skill sets. That is in the heartland and it is VERY important to our economy.

Also, we should be trying to get manufacturing back to America. It's not just a one-trick pony either. There was a reason that GM got bailed out.

As for coal, yes it will run out. Same for other minerals. But the technical skills used in mining may be transferable to manufacturing or to the oil fields in North Dakota.

The federal government cannot be wholly responsible for people's educations. Individual responsibility has to come into play as well. And teachers cannot be blamed for all of the failures. Failure happens for many reasons (that go way beyond the "standards").

Answer me this: How do you raise "standards" and raise the graduation rate at the same time?

Put another way:

How do we get the drop out rate down?

What are the factors contributing to the high drop out rate? Is a lack of national standards one of the contributing factors? Or is the drop out rate unimportant (as in we will always need janitors)?

If all we do is continue to just prepare them for is assembly line jobs, they will end up unemployable.

And where are these local assembly line jobs you are talking about? I mean the ones that some locality is preparing kids for?

Anonymous wrote:

20 years from now our kids will probably be working from their homes for companies 500 miles away. The priority should be future-proofed skills, globally marketable skills. Somebody has to be able to write code for those machines, somebody has to design the circuitry, somebody still has to write the documentation.

Wrong. All of these jobs can be done from India (I'm not sure why you said 500 miles). The future jobs are the ones that cannot be done from India (plumbing, electrical, paramedics, nurses, doctors, construction, food service, etc.). Writing code for the machine does not have to be done locally, but FIXING the machine's hardware does. Designing the circuitry does not have to be done locally, but FIXING the circuitry does. India. China. They will do those jobs.

ALL THE MORE REASON students need future-proof, NON-localized educations! They will NEED the tech skills, the math, the language, science and other skills. If all we do is continue to just prepare them for is assembly line jobs, they will end up unemployable.

Anonymous wrote:

20 years from now our kids will probably be working from their homes for companies 500 miles away. The priority should be future-proofed skills, globally marketable skills. Somebody has to be able to write code for those machines, somebody has to design the circuitry, somebody still has to write the documentation.

Wrong. All of these jobs can be done from India (I'm not sure why you said 500 miles). The future jobs are the ones that cannot be done from India (plumbing, electrical, paramedics, nurses, doctors, construction, food service, etc.). Writing code for the machine does not have to be done locally, but FIXING the machine's hardware does. Designing the circuitry does not have to be done locally, but FIXING the circuitry does. India. China. They will do those jobs.

In 20 years, India and China will be too expensive, too.

But yes, the future is in jobs that can't be outsourced to other countries with cheaper labor forces. Unfortunately most of those jobs are low-paying jobs -- home health aides, for example.

20 years from now our kids will probably be working from their homes for companies 500 miles away. The priority should be future-proofed skills, globally marketable skills. Somebody has to be able to write code for those machines, somebody has to design the circuitry, somebody still has to write the documentation.

Wrong. All of these jobs can be done from India (I'm not sure why you said 500 miles). The future jobs are the ones that cannot be done from India (plumbing, electrical, paramedics, nurses, doctors, construction, food service, etc.). Writing code for the machine does not have to be done locally, but FIXING the machine's hardware does. Designing the circuitry does not have to be done locally, but FIXING the circuitry does. India. China. They will do those jobs.

20 years from now our kids will probably be working from their homes for companies 500 miles away. The priority should be future-proofed skills, globally marketable skills

And, yet, our kids don't need jobs 20 years from now. They need jobs today. If there is a job out there that requires a certain set of skills, is there anything wrong with getting prepared to do that job? The fact that that job may go away after 20 years is the nature of our economy now and we all must continue to learn throughout life. Yes, K-12 education should be robust. My question is: how is CC and testing going to make education robust? Are the standards the real issue here or are there other factors that are not being addressed? Where is the proof that the standards are even the real issue in declining performance.

While thinking about that, also think about the fact that half of all recent college graduates are unemployed or underemployed. They have had a robust education. They need marketable SKILLS. The local economy does matter when industries cannot find skilled workers.

Anonymous wrote:

Answer me this: How would one state or locality's education priorities legitimately be so tremendously different than another's?

The local industries could affect the priorities.

Tailoring everything to local industries is a trap. What happens when the coal runs out (as it did in parts of Appalachia?)

People need a more robust set of skills and knowledge, if you are just a one-trick pony, you are likely to find yourself screwed for a job.

Plus, we need to be cognizant of the fact that with automation, outsourcing and other things taking as many jobs as they are, that it becomes all the more important and relevant to have skills that a machine, a computer, or some guy in India can't take away.

That is why local industries should NOT be the priority. 20 years from now our kids will probably be working from their homes for companies 500 miles away. The priority should be future-proofed skills, globally marketable skills. Somebody has to be able to write code for those machines, somebody has to design the circuitry, somebody still has to write the documentation... and for that you still need robust education.

Why don't they hire people and train them?

I'm not sure, but I think that a lot of students get no hands on type courses in high school anymore at all. That means they don't have an inclination or any kind of desire to go and apply for a position like this. Maybe they think it's too "dirty"? I think the employer wants a certain type of person---problem solver, self starter, and fairly decent at math (to make calculations). It's not a "turn the crank" job. I don't think he always knows what is wrong so he has to diagnose and think on his feet (and there are a variety of machines). My brother in law is very smart (both his parents went to college and had professional careers). I think that 40 years ago not everyone like him was going to college (there were high paying jobs in manufacturing and he saw that). Now lots of people like him would be in college. That's just my guess. It is very weird. I think my brother-in-law is mechanically talented and then he had the opportunity to develop that part of himself (through high school). I'm not sure how he or his parents or the schools helped him along.

I also have a brother who works as a machinist. Machinists make parts (usually metal as far as I can tell). He worked for Caterpillar for years. Unfortunately the outsourcing has caused a loss of many jobs in the US. He did not go to college. He had a stint in the Navy.

My concern is watching my nieces and nephews all go to college (and they are all going) and NOT get jobs that pay as well. I'm not sure college is the big ticket. I think the economy is changing and we are all just struggling to figure out where the jobs are going to be.

As far as NCLB goes, it hasn't really helped (14 years later).

Anonymous wrote:
Okay, let me give you an example of a local economy. My family is from Minnesota. My relatives work in the food industry. This is not just 20 guys. My brother-in-law is a maintenance mechanic for machines in a plant that employs 1500 people. That means he fixes the machines that are specialized to the cereal business. He has been complaining nonstop about finding help because they are not training kids in vocational programs in high schools. They can't find people to do this work (and it is high paying and has good benefits). Now, I would say that this is a local job (since the farms and food production are concentrated in this area). I don't think people who do his work need a college degree (he doesn't have one---he has trained in Germany on machines and had other training though). He has been doing this work for over 40 years (he started at Carnation Company and has been in two other plants and is now with Post). These are jobs that are just as important to the economy as any that college educated people are doing.

Why don't they hire people and train them?