Anonymous wrote:

It's hard to recall that Islamic civilization was once far ahead of Western civilization. Early in Islamic history Arab conquests took them into captured libraries full of Greek philosophy, science, mathematics and culture and Islamic intellectual life expanded suddenly and exponentially. Many seminal works the West claims today as its own originally arrived as translations from Arabic. The numbers we use today, "Arabic" (actually Indian) numerals came in on a tide of Arabic words like algebra and algorithm. Arab civilization in the 10th seemed to have a bright future. Then, in the 11th century Islam reversed course. The pendulum swung so far away from the rationalism of Greek philosophy it never came back.

Muslima wrote:
Converting people on the internet is not my forte. You do not have to like Islam, you do not have to be a Muslim, really it is a free world, you can believe in whatever you want, you can worship a rat if you want, it's your life! But if you spend countless hours on the internet sharing fallacies about Islam, quoting verses right and left out of context then obviously you are not very secured in whatever it is that you believe. You will never encounter me talking about Bhudhism, Atheism, Christianity, Judaism,...unless I have a question about what a Christian, jewish ect believes, why? Because I am very secured in what I believe and what islam is, so i have zero need of bashing someone else's religion even if I don't believe in it. I might be curious about their beliefs but you won't see me debate what Christians believe or how Bhuddists pray to their God.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Ugh okay next...> Poor me, Muslim Woman I will just go hide and cry tonight. I had no idea I was living under these dire conditions, thank you so much for enlightening me, who knew??

Are you too scared to admit s that there is a good possibility that Islam is not a bunch of fairy tales and might be a divinely inspired religion? It would certainly explain a lot of the internet troll’s behaviour who vociferously criticise Islam as if their life depended on it. Indeed, the Quranic idea is that when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief. Some, for example, will spend all their energy ridiculing Islam maybe because they don’t want to concede that Islam is what it says it is: a divinely inspired religion. But hey for us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch. Our Trust is in Allah!

I'm as Islam neutral as it comes. I am not interested n moving your faith an inch or a foot; what do I care about what an internet stranger believes?

I don't think Islam is divinely inspired but then I don't think any religion is. I want you to know something. You behave like every single unskilled dawwa-giver I met, and I met a lot of them - including my numerous Saudi in-laws. They all go on and on about how fabulous Islam is; when I point out something factual that doesn't seem appealing to me, they come up with all kinds of reasons why black is white and white is black, and then they ask me to agree that Islam is fabulous. When I continue saying that it doesn't seem fabulous to me, they all say, No! You see in your heart that it's fabulous, you just DELIBERATELY don't want to admit it.

I'm like why? Why would I hesitate to admit it? I've told you about all the reasons it doesn't work for me, and I'm not going to suddenly decide that these reasons aren't important any more. I'm not deliberately being anything. You've failed to make a good argument. That's fine; no religion has ever made a good argument to me. But to insist that whoever doesn't see the beauty of Islam MUST be refusing deliberately is just disrespectful. I have no problem with you believing what you believe. But stop trying to make me admit it makes sense or is fabulous. It doesn't. And it isn't, not to me. And that's completely sincere.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PS: If you think women in Muslim countries are never in financial hardship after the divorce, you're blind.

Stay focused, this discussion is not about rotten people who use religion for their own ill purposes, its about what life is like for people in a TRUE islamic state. In true Islam, women do not suffer great hardship after divorce. They are cared for by male relatives or the State.

And I understand some women find that sort of thing attractive. I personally would find it utterly demoralizing to be treated like a child. Furthermore the comment about financial hardship post divorce in the west refers to practice, not religion, so if seems perfectly fair to compare western reality with Muslim reality, not Muslim ideal.

Well I have to compare it to western practice, not religion, because there is no Christian or Jewish state here to compare the Islamic state to! So by your logic, if we should be comparing Muslim reality to other realities, then lets look at the "realities" other rules and socieities:

- German Hitler slaughtered more Jews than any other leader or any other country. Is it realistic to say Germans are all racist? Is it realistic to say all Germans are like Hitler?
- Muslim attacks increased from 300+ attacks per year to 1500+ attacks per yr after 9/11 in the US. How many realtistic assumptions can we make from this? Lets see…Americans are hateful toward Muslims? Americans are hateful toward Islam? Americans are stupid because they believe all Muslims think lke the 9/11 attackers?
- David Koresh was a murderer/ evangelical Christian. How many realistic conclusions can we make from that? All evangelicals are murderers? All evangelicals are violent? All evangelicals are extremist? Well on this last point, the Pentagon seems to think they are. lol

So you see, it is unwise to look at extremists who represent the fringe of Islam and rely on them for your own understanding of Islam. They have hijacked my religion. I don't ever remember learning their kind of "Islam" in my sunday school as a child.

Muslima wrote:Besides the fact that due to their ignorance they believe Islam is unjust to women, women are converting to Islam at such rapid rates that they outnumber men 4 to 1.Considering the intense anti-Islamic and hostile media propaganda these past few years, some with a particularly strong emphasis on the 'supposed' degrading position of women in Islam, I feel that those women are exceptional who accept Islam and who were able to separate the negative stereotyping and nonsense from the reality of faith(kudos to your MIL). Muslim women, born and converts, are by no means the empty-headed, submissive, rejects of western society that some would have us believe. These critics fail miserably to understand or relate the true underlying reasons for so many Muslim women's acceptance of and adherence to Islam. This stems from their inability to face the reality of the true motivations of intelligent, thoughtful, western women, both young and old, for accepting Islam. Biased, slanted, and incomplete reporting is often due to plain old ignorance and significant doses of arrogance and pride. But hey, we are not going anywhere, Islam and Muslims are here to stay!

Muslima wrote:

Ugh okay next...> Poor me, Muslim Woman I will just go hide and cry tonight. I had no idea I was living under these dire conditions, thank you so much for enlightening me, who knew??

Are you too scared to admit s that there is a good possibility that Islam is not a bunch of fairy tales and might be a divinely inspired religion? It would certainly explain a lot of the internet troll’s behaviour who vociferously criticise Islam as if their life depended on it. Indeed, the Quranic idea is that when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief. Some, for example, will spend all their energy ridiculing Islam maybe because they don’t want to concede that Islam is what it says it is: a divinely inspired religion. But hey for us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch. Our Trust is in Allah!

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And Joseph married her, yes, but AFTER Mary got pregnant.

Wow, Muslima! I thought you told us that Muslims revere Mary. Yet here you are, trashing Mary's reputation in order to score points on DCUM.

Again, I'm not Muslima. But whatever…

Yes, Muslims do have tremendous respect for Mary. I personally believe in the immaculate conception. Muslims are required to believe in it. But I'm using this as a point to show the lunacy of calling Muhammad a pedophile. Muhammad is no more a pedophile for marrying Aisha than Mary was a disgraced woman for having an immaculate conception. Get it?

Dear fellow Muslim brother, Assalamualeikum wa Rahmatullah wa barakatuhu You & I both know that Islam does not support Pedophilia or child molestation under any circumstances. We have both shared points, showing what the age of marriage used to be in the past, something history agrees with, but at the end of the day I have come to realize one thing, I can't keep arguing with islamophobes who are blinded by their hate of Islam, logic and reason is least likely to influence people like that. They have no idea of the love that 1.6 billion Muslims have for Allah and his messenger saw, so how can we blame them and hold them responsible for their ignorance? Sadly, they have not tasted the sweetness of Iman!

Salaam Muslima,

When I first joined this discussion, I truly thought it was an intellectual discourse. I truly thought the handful of people inquiring about Islam were interested in understanding Islam. They are not. I have answers their questions numerous times and, yet, it does not seem to be to their satisfaction. They are a dodging target. Their first accusation was that Muhammad was a pedophile. Then they take issue with Islam's inheritance laws. Then divorce laws are an injustice to women. Then it was testimony. Now it's custody. Nearly ever question has been answered except for the child custody one and that' s an easy to answer as well. I plan to explain that soon too.
I'm beginning to realize that their antagonism is an expression of their fear about the spread of Islam. Islam is the fastest growing religion, not only in the world but also in the US. Moreover, it is growing in the US, not by immigration, but instead by conversion. They know this. They feel terribly threatened by this because they fear Muslims will take over the US and want to convert it to a Sharia state. They fear it will give birth to grops like ISIS.
I wish I could reassure them that this will not happen. The beauty of America is that it is a multi religious, muli cultural land. Even if immigrants arrive here, clinging to their old customs and ways, by the second or third generation, American Muslims assimilate. They may not give up their religious principles completely but they learn the valuable lesson of tolerance of other religions and cultures. It gives birth to a new and better kind of Islam, an Islam free of cultural influences, and this is pure Islam.
Regardless of the vile accusations they make against Prophet Muhammad, I still hold that Christians and Jews are my brethren. Christianity and Judaism are simply other avenues to the same God we worship. I condemn ISIS and will always condemn any extremist group that denies the right of any Christian or Jew to practice his faith freely. This is real Islam.
It's very sad that rather than asking, "Why did Muhammad marry a girl so young?" or "Did Muhammad in fact marry a girl that young?" the word pedophile was used. It's just terribly insulting to the billions of Muslims that respect him so much.
No one can learn about Islam just google searching and reading just one or two books or relying on Hollywood movies like "Not Without My Daughter." To learn about Islam they have to be willing to call a few Imams or scholars in the US such as Hamza Yusuf, Ahmad Sakr, Muhammad Joban, etc…Historians do not know Islam as well as an imam or scholar would.
My own mother in law converted to Islam from Christianity over 40 yrs ago and she has never regretted her decision. She is of European descent. I am of mixed race. My children have very caucasian features and are not likely to be thought of as "Muslim" by other Americans. They will blend in American society almost completely, with the exception of their religion. This is the new American Muslim. They better get used to it.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If a Muslim woman wants to divorce, she may, but has the addl hurdle of seeking a divorce through the court. A man needs two witnesses. The addl requirement acts as a safeguard for women in a system entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women, as it is in place to ensure a woman is not making a decision that will be more harmful to her in the long run. Moreover, men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed to the wife during the marriage. This is in stark contrast to divorce laws in the US, where spouses often fight for who gets what, and women are in financial hardship after divorce.

Overall, it looks to me that Islam does a fine job of providing true "equality" because it is a more just system.

You follow me??

You're doing the typical Muslim thing where they say the arrangements of their religion is perfect and whatever seems imperfect is really for your own good. Unequal rights to divorce for women? That's for your own good! Cannot travel without male companion? That's for your own good! Have to cede custody of children if you remarry? That's for your own good! Cannot marry without permission of legal guardian? It's for your own good!

So to address, just to humor you, the weak argument you make about divorce:

The system that is entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women did not fall from the sky. It was created and enshrined by that very same religion. The religion that does not see women as capable makers of their own decision and therefore wants to "protect them" from themselves.

Men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed on the wife during marriage? That's only if divorce is initiated by men. If initiated by a woman, it is very common for women to buy out their way out of the marriage by returning their wedding gift, for which ample scriptural proof is in fact available in the ahadith.

Furthermore, you know what else men are not required to do upon divorce? Share with the wife anything the couple accumulated during marriage. Theoretically, a scenario where a rich husband divorces his homemaker wife of 30 years and sends her off with three months' of maintenance, is perfectly legal Islamically. Doesn't seen fair? It didn't seem fair to the Indian courts either, which ushered in a famous case of Shah Bano, an elderly woman tossed out by her rich husband with nothing. When the court attempted to seek redress via alimony and property division similar to what is available to Hindu women, Muslims went out to demonstrate. India had to weasel out of this predicament by creating a special fund dedicated to maintenance of women who were cruelly - and yet irreproachably, as far as Islam is concerned - tossed out by their husbands.

Ugh okay next...> Poor me, Muslim Woman I will just go hide and cry tonight. I had no idea I was living under these dire conditions, thank you so much for enlightening me, who knew??

Are you too scared to admit s that there is a good possibility that Islam is not a bunch of fairy tales and might be a divinely inspired religion? It would certainly explain a lot of the internet troll’s behaviour who vociferously criticise Islam as if their life depended on it. Indeed, the Quranic idea is that when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief. Some, for example, will spend all their energy ridiculing Islam maybe because they don’t want to concede that Islam is what it says it is: a divinely inspired religion. But hey for us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch. Our Trust is in Allah!

please re-read the last paragraph. It is an excellent overview of why we are critical of Islam and and why Islam is fundamentally the problem.

you said - when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief - what does this mean? that you have the truth and everyone else covers it up? did God (or Mohammed) personally come to your house and deliver the truth? or are you reading something that another human being wrote and letting them be your god? this is nonsense for an adult person to say!

you said - ridiculing Islam - posters are not ridiculing. I am scared by the terrible violence that Islam has been imposing on any other religion it comes into contact with. And because of the US and Western Europe history of tolerance and political correctness, we will do nothing to stop it until it requires a huge cost to stop.

you said - us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch - yes we know this. Islam is about intolerance as practiced today. The leaders insist that the Koran is eternal, and must be simply accepted without question. In fact, for this group, the very act of questioning is blasphemous--a capital crime.


It's hard to recall that Islamic civilization was once far ahead of Western civilization. Early in Islamic history Arab conquests took them into captured libraries full of Greek philosophy, science, mathematics and culture and Islamic intellectual life expanded suddenly and exponentially. Many seminal works the West claims today as its own originally arrived as translations from Arabic. The numbers we use today, "Arabic" (actually Indian) numerals came in on a tide of Arabic words like algebra and algorithm. Arab civilization in the 10th seemed to have a bright future. Then, in the 11th century Islam reversed course. The pendulum swung so far away from the rationalism of Greek philosophy it never came back.

The linchpin of this change was over the alleged power of Allah. It became a theological fetish to ascribe Him flattering new dimensions of potency. Imaginative arguments were made inflate the Creator--always at the expense of the created.
- Omnipotence. Far more God-powers. Even to the point of dismissing all natural law, all cause & effect Every event from the molecular to the cosmic becomes Allah's will. (God is Great!...and getting Greater!)
- Onmiscience. He knows your fate and all future events. Failure & success, heaven or hell, happiness or misery--His choice, not yours. All entered into history by an Angel before you exist. (Divine determinism, Islamic style: only He is free.)
- Unknowability. You can know nothing about Him or His motives. To attempt to discover or postulate Allah's nature becomes blasphemy--a capital crime. All His commandments are beyond human logic: arbitrary and absolute. Obedience is the bedrock source of morality, all law, all behavior. No modifications allowed.

Right, your core belief that Islam is the problem is what is wrong with society and why this discussion is pointless, so I will end by saying this, " To you your religion, to me my religion". I don't have the energy to repeat the same things over and over. The very fact that you believe Muslims follow blindly their faith and are not allowed to question, seek the truth and gain knowledge shows that this discussion is sterile as you do not even understand the basics of Islam. The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge. [i]The first verse of the Quran that was revealed was not " Pray" or "Believe" or "Fast, go to hajj", it was "Read! Read in the name of thy Lord who created;[He] created the human being from blood clot. Read in the name of thy Lord who taught by the pen: [He] taught the human being what he did not know." (96: 1-5). There are around 750 verses in the Quran that encourage us to think about the universe that surrounds us and all that has been created within it and placed at our disposal.The Prophet saw made seeking knowledge an obligation upon every Muslim, and he explained that the superiority of the one who has knowledge over the one who merely worships is like the superiority of the moon over every other heavenly body. We are not supposed to close our eyes and live this life blindly following whatever flavor of the day. We are rather supposed to ponder, deliberate and choose a proper course of action for whatever undertaking we venture in. The Qur'an obligates believers to think and reflect, we don't just obey blindly, so to you your religion, to me mine!.

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PS: If you think women in Muslim countries are never in financial hardship after the divorce, you're blind.

Stay focused, this discussion is not about rotten people who use religion for their own ill purposes, its about what life is like for people in a TRUE islamic state. In true Islam, women do not suffer great hardship after divorce. They are cared for by male relatives or the State.

And I understand some women find that sort of thing attractive. I personally would find it utterly demoralizing to be treated like a child. Furthermore the comment about financial hardship post divorce in the west refers to practice, not religion, so if seems perfectly fair to compare western reality with Muslim reality, not Muslim ideal.

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If a Muslim woman wants to divorce, she may, but has the addl hurdle of seeking a divorce through the court. A man needs two witnesses. The addl requirement acts as a safeguard for women in a system entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women, as it is in place to ensure a woman is not making a decision that will be more harmful to her in the long run. Moreover, men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed to the wife during the marriage. This is in stark contrast to divorce laws in the US, where spouses often fight for who gets what, and women are in financial hardship after divorce.

Overall, it looks to me that Islam does a fine job of providing true "equality" because it is a more just system.

You follow me??

You're doing the typical Muslim thing where they say the arrangements of their religion is perfect and whatever seems imperfect is really for your own good. Unequal rights to divorce for women? That's for your own good! Cannot travel without male companion? That's for your own good! Have to cede custody of children if you remarry? That's for your own good! Cannot marry without permission of legal guardian? It's for your own good!

So to address, just to humor you, the weak argument you make about divorce:

The system that is entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women did not fall from the sky. It was created and enshrined by that very same religion. The religion that does not see women as capable makers of their own decision and therefore wants to "protect them" from themselves.

Men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed on the wife during marriage? That's only if divorce is initiated by men. If initiated by a woman, it is very common for women to buy out their way out of the marriage by returning their wedding gift, for which ample scriptural proof is in fact available in the ahadith.

Furthermore, you know what else men are not required to do upon divorce? Share with the wife anything the couple accumulated during marriage. Theoretically, a scenario where a rich husband divorces his homemaker wife of 30 years and sends her off with three months' of maintenance, is perfectly legal Islamically. Doesn't seen fair? It didn't seem fair to the Indian courts either, which ushered in a famous case of Shah Bano, an elderly woman tossed out by her rich husband with nothing. When the court attempted to seek redress via alimony and property division similar to what is available to Hindu women, Muslims went out to demonstrate. India had to weasel out of this predicament by creating a special fund dedicated to maintenance of women who were cruelly - and yet irreproachably, as far as Islam is concerned - tossed out by their husbands.

Ugh okay next...> Poor me, Muslim Woman I will just go hide and cry tonight. I had no idea I was living under these dire conditions, thank you so much for enlightening me, who knew??

Are you too scared to admit s that there is a good possibility that Islam is not a bunch of fairy tales and might be a divinely inspired religion? It would certainly explain a lot of the internet troll’s behaviour who vociferously criticise Islam as if their life depended on it. Indeed, the Quranic idea is that when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief. Some, for example, will spend all their energy ridiculing Islam maybe because they don’t want to concede that Islam is what it says it is: a divinely inspired religion. But hey for us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch. Our Trust is in Allah!

please re-read the last paragraph. It is an excellent overview of why we are critical of Islam and and why Islam is fundamentally the problem.

you said - when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief - what does this mean? that you have the truth and everyone else covers it up? did God (or Mohammed) personally come to your house and deliver the truth? or are you reading something that another human being wrote and letting them be your god? this is nonsense for an adult person to say!

you said - ridiculing Islam - posters are not ridiculing. I am scared by the terrible violence that Islam has been imposing on any other religion it comes into contact with. And because of the US and Western Europe history of tolerance and political correctness, we will do nothing to stop it until it requires a huge cost to stop.

you said - us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch - yes we know this. Islam is about intolerance as practiced today. The leaders insist that the Koran is eternal, and must be simply accepted without question. In fact, for this group, the very act of questioning is blasphemous--a capital crime.


It's hard to recall that Islamic civilization was once far ahead of Western civilization. Early in Islamic history Arab conquests took them into captured libraries full of Greek philosophy, science, mathematics and culture and Islamic intellectual life expanded suddenly and exponentially. Many seminal works the West claims today as its own originally arrived as translations from Arabic. The numbers we use today, "Arabic" (actually Indian) numerals came in on a tide of Arabic words like algebra and algorithm. Arab civilization in the 10th seemed to have a bright future. Then, in the 11th century Islam reversed course. The pendulum swung so far away from the rationalism of Greek philosophy it never came back.

The linchpin of this change was over the alleged power of Allah. It became a theological fetish to ascribe Him flattering new dimensions of potency. Imaginative arguments were made inflate the Creator--always at the expense of the created.
- Omnipotence. Far more God-powers. Even to the point of dismissing all natural law, all cause & effect Every event from the molecular to the cosmic becomes Allah's will. (God is Great!...and getting Greater!)
- Onmiscience. He knows your fate and all future events. Failure & success, heaven or hell, happiness or misery--His choice, not yours. All entered into history by an Angel before you exist. (Divine determinism, Islamic style: only He is free.)
- Unknowability. You can know nothing about Him or His motives. To attempt to discover or postulate Allah's nature becomes blasphemy--a capital crime. All His commandments are beyond human logic: arbitrary and absolute. Obedience is the bedrock source of morality, all law, all behavior. No modifications allowed.

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And Joseph married her, yes, but AFTER Mary got pregnant.

Wow, Muslima! I thought you told us that Muslims revere Mary. Yet here you are, trashing Mary's reputation in order to score points on DCUM.

Again, I'm not Muslima. But whatever…

Yes, Muslims do have tremendous respect for Mary. I personally believe in the immaculate conception. Muslims are required to believe in it. But I'm using this as a point to show the lunacy of calling Muhammad a pedophile. Muhammad is no more a pedophile for marrying Aisha than Mary was a disgraced woman for having an immaculate conception. Get it?

Dear fellow Muslim brother, Assalamualeikum wa Rahmatullah wa barakatuhu You & I both know that Islam does not support Pedophilia or child molestation under any circumstances. We have both shared points, showing what the age of marriage used to be in the past, something history agrees with, but at the end of the day I have come to realize one thing, I can't keep arguing with islamophobes who are blinded by their hate of Islam, logic and reason is least likely to influence people like that. They have no idea of the love that 1.6 billion Muslims have for Allah and his messenger saw, so how can we blame them and hold them responsible for their ignorance? Sadly, they have not tasted the sweetness of Iman!

Anonymous wrote:An Islamic militant group released a video on Tuesday showing the beheading of a second American hostage, blaming the killing on President Obama and raising the pressure on him to order military strikes on the group in its sanctuary in Syria. The hostage, Steven J. Sotloff, is shown in the video kneeling like the previous victim, James Foley, while his masked killer stands above, wielding a knife. Mr. Sotloff addresses the camera and describes himself as “paying the price” for Mr. Obama’s decision to strike the group, the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, in northern Iraq.

no protests or demonstrations or any significant action by the bearded mullahs.

If it was an exception it would be sad, but it happens wherever Islam comes in contact with other religions. Egypt and killing of christians. Nigeria and killing of christians. India and killing of hindus. Even Buddhists can't get along with Muslims.

I just pray that someday Muslims will want to join the human race. I really don't understand how intelligent people can follow this cult. Women kept under cloth. Men control divorce. Non-Muslims are pushed out of society. Multiple wives. And people blindly follow this.

"We keep blaming Hamas and Gaza, but it is not them, it is this son of a b—- book that I am stepping on right now. This book is the source of all evil and the real catastrophe. There is nothing new here, it is not Omar Abdel Rahman, Abbud or all the others, it is this rotten book that is causing us to run in a demonic circle that will never end.”

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
If a Muslim woman wants to divorce, she may, but has the addl hurdle of seeking a divorce through the court. A man needs two witnesses. The addl requirement acts as a safeguard for women in a system entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women, as it is in place to ensure a woman is not making a decision that will be more harmful to her in the long run. Moreover, men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed to the wife during the marriage. This is in stark contrast to divorce laws in the US, where spouses often fight for who gets what, and women are in financial hardship after divorce.

Overall, it looks to me that Islam does a fine job of providing true "equality" because it is a more just system.

You follow me??

You're doing the typical Muslim thing where they say the arrangements of their religion is perfect and whatever seems imperfect is really for your own good. Unequal rights to divorce for women? That's for your own good! Cannot travel without male companion? That's for your own good! Have to cede custody of children if you remarry? That's for your own good! Cannot marry without permission of legal guardian? It's for your own good!

So to address, just to humor you, the weak argument you make about divorce:

The system that is entrenched with institutional discrimination toward women did not fall from the sky. It was created and enshrined by that very same religion. The religion that does not see women as capable makers of their own decision and therefore wants to "protect them" from themselves.

Men are not permitted to take back anything they bestowed on the wife during marriage? That's only if divorce is initiated by men. If initiated by a woman, it is very common for women to buy out their way out of the marriage by returning their wedding gift, for which ample scriptural proof is in fact available in the ahadith.

Furthermore, you know what else men are not required to do upon divorce? Share with the wife anything the couple accumulated during marriage. Theoretically, a scenario where a rich husband divorces his homemaker wife of 30 years and sends her off with three months' of maintenance, is perfectly legal Islamically. Doesn't seen fair? It didn't seem fair to the Indian courts either, which ushered in a famous case of Shah Bano, an elderly woman tossed out by her rich husband with nothing. When the court attempted to seek redress via alimony and property division similar to what is available to Hindu women, Muslims went out to demonstrate. India had to weasel out of this predicament by creating a special fund dedicated to maintenance of women who were cruelly - and yet irreproachably, as far as Islam is concerned - tossed out by their husbands.

Ugh okay next...> Poor me, Muslim Woman I will just go hide and cry tonight. I had no idea I was living under these dire conditions, thank you so much for enlightening me, who knew??

Are you too scared to admit s that there is a good possibility that Islam is not a bunch of fairy tales and might be a divinely inspired religion? It would certainly explain a lot of the internet troll’s behaviour who vociferously criticise Islam as if their life depended on it. Indeed, the Quranic idea is that when people are confronted with the truth, they often cover it up with disbelief. Some, for example, will spend all their energy ridiculing Islam maybe because they don’t want to concede that Islam is what it says it is: a divinely inspired religion. But hey for us the believers, no amount of ridicule, fallacies, lies will move our faith to even an inch. Our Trust is in Allah!

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:And Joseph married her, yes, but AFTER Mary got pregnant.

Wow, Muslima! I thought you told us that Muslims revere Mary. Yet here you are, trashing Mary's reputation in order to score points on DCUM.

Again, I'm not Muslima. But whatever…

Yes, Muslims do have tremendous respect for Mary. I personally believe in the immaculate conception. Muslims are required to believe in it. But I'm using this as a point to show the lunacy of calling Muhammad a pedophile. Muhammad is no more a pedophile for marrying Aisha than Mary was a disgraced woman for having an immaculate conception. Get it?

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PS: If you think women in Muslim countries are never in financial hardship after the divorce, you're blind.

Stay focused, this discussion is not about rotten people who use religion for their own ill purposes, its about what life is like for people in a TRUE islamic state. In true Islam, women do not suffer great hardship after divorce. They are cared for by male relatives or the State.

So there is no such thing as poor male relatives?